What does it really mean to be fluent in a language?

[eyenon15]

Enough to where you can do customer service in another language.

[Aniel]

Fluency to me is being able to speak, write and read a language and understand it without any major issues. Encountering words you don't understand doesn't determine whether or not you're fluent, I still find words in my native tongue which I don't understand. Being able to guess the general meaning of a word using contextual clues I'd say adds towards the "fluent" label even though it's possible to do the same in languages one does not fully understand.

I'm a native Swedish speaker who has been learning English since age 9, and I'd say I've been fluent since I was around 13-14 years old... That was around the time I switched from writing my stories in Swedish to English, and I guess 15 is where I started exclusively reading fiction in English because it often feels more mature for some reason (of course, all the books I read tend to be written in English from the beginning, so there's that angle to consider as well...). I still use Swedish a lot in my daily life of course, but there are instances where I think in English.

As for actually speaking the language, I obviously do that as well. My significant other is American living in the US so whenever we talk English is the obvious choice. Surprisingly enough I don't often mispronounce things (I guess it's surprising because a large part of my vocabulary comes from reading), although I did find out (to my great dismay) that I had been pronouncing "iron" wrong for years and no one ever corrected me until I said the word in conversation with said SO...

I'm going off on a tangent here...

But yeah, I agree with most of the stuff that's already been written. I would have to add that pronunciation does play a big part in whether or not I consider someone fluent, but I should note that I am a bit of a snob in that regard... Which of course makes me hate myself every time I mispronounce something.

[Castellan]

Aniel sounds very fluent in English.

I think to be fluent you'd have to able to hold a conversation that could range over a number of topics you weren't expecting, and you'd still have the vocabulary etc to cope, without native speakers making a lot of allowances for you.

I guess if you studied it at university level and then followed up with being in the country for a while, you should be fluent. I mean there would probably be lots of the culture that was going over your head but you'd be able to communicate pretty well. I remember my French teacher at school said that after doing his degree he went to France, the first place he went was a bar, and he sat there with a drink and was appalled because he couldn't understand any of the conversations around him, but after about 30 minutes something in his brain had switched over and he could understand everything.

[Jo498]

I think, usually "fluent" is used in a somewhat weaker sense. Probably official degrees are somewhat different anyway but I think there are levels of proficiency above "fluent" e.g. "like a native" is clearly a much higher proficiency and includes flawless pronunciation (which fluent IMO does not). But some native speakers will be overwhelmed by special vocab and style of an academic presentation. Some foreign academics might speak with a strong accent but will be able to follow such a presentation and discussion and might be able to write academic papers in the foreign language. Still, he might have trouble in the pub afterwards. This also depends how different colloquial/dialectal speech is from the "academic style". Of course, in regions with strong dialects, native speakers from another region will have trouble understanding.

But I still remember that after spending several months at university in the US with hardly any problems in normal conversation about a broad range of topics I still dreaded situations in bars/restaurants when there is a. noisy background b. some standard procedure one might not be familiar with, e.g. the waiter gives you lots of options (dressings) after you have placed a simple order of salad and you do not even understand what Frenchitalianthousandislands is supposed to mean

c. one is expected to react fairly quickly and feels already awkward because one will not be able to. One will stick out as a foreigner in such a situation far more clearly than in the classroom or smalltalk with other students.

[Tears of Lys]

"Fluent" in another language, to me, means that you could make a presentation to a group of people from the country of that language and the folks would think you have a hint of a charming accent - something like Eliza Dolittle when she was being presented to the court of Somesuch in "My Fair Lady."

ETA: And I also agree with Jo498 up there who said you should be able to blend seamlessly in a noisy barroom conversation AND when ordering. (This is an extremely important point. If you don't have this, anything else is rendered superfluous.)

You would also be able to write in this language well enough to fool anyone receiving your letter or missive into thinking you were **from** the country.

Obviously, there are very few people who would fit these parameters. I comprehend a lot in my idea of "fluent," to paraphrase Mr. Darcy. ;)

[Jo498]

As I said, I think the common understanding of the "fluent" level is considerably lower. Someone who speaks well and without pauses but with a rather strong accent will still be fluent according to my understanding. Fitting in like a native is considerably stronger than fluent; I'd probably put at least one level in between those.

The fitting in most social situations also demands more than language proficiency. One can speak perfect English, but if one is not familiar with the ritual asking for the salad dressing one will be puzzled and appear as a foreigner.

[Aniel]

Here's an interesting little project where imgur users record themselves reading a passage where there are "common English phonemes placed in such a way as to make accents 'stand out'": http://imgur.com/gallery/cNhjs

It's quite interesting to hear all the different accents and level of proficiency in the recordings.

Here's mine:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s03JB0DHtNrP

As I noted earlier I am a bit of a snob regarding pronunciation, I am of the opinion that if you're learning a language you should learn the sounds of it as well - not just pronounce words the way they would be pronounced in your own language. An example would be my fellow swedes pronouncing TH (a sound not present in Swedish) as D. Whenever I hear an adult say D instead of TH I want to go :bang:

Of course, you can have an accent and still be fluent - that's just my personal philosophy regarding languages.

[Summah]

I don't think accent (as long as it's intelligible) really counts towards fluency. Of course if someone can speak a language with a native accent or a mild accent that's great, but accents are a skill that is not necessarily related to fluency. Some people are just good at accents, for example I was exposed to several languages regularly since birth, I have a native accent in all of these languages, though I am not currently fluent in all of them my accent remains like a natives (I have at various times in the past been fluent in all of them), for me this skill extends generally and I can have a very good in every language I've tried without much effort, eg I have (I've been told by native speakers) a very good, almost perfect northern Mexican accent in Spanish, however my Spanish speaking and writing skills have never been above proficient at any time, but because of this when I speak Spanish with native speaker they usually assume I'm fluent, something that has caused me problems in the past.

I do think the "like a native" designation does require a very good or perfect accent.

[eyenon15]

Accent shouldn't matter since there are many different accents within almost every language.

[Jo498]

But a German accent when speaking English (or French) is not at all similar to regional accents of native speakers.

I think Aniel nailed it with the first sentence "Fluency to me is being able to speak, write and read a language and understand it without any major issues." but than confused matters a little by describing a considerably higher level of language skill (i.e. hardly any accent)

Of course, many of these things are vague. Late/adult learners of a language very often keep a strong accent. It also depends on how hard/distant a language is. I once heard a talk by a Japanese physicist (later to receive the Nobel) who came to the US in his early 30s and had been living there for >40 years. Although he was fluent ins the sense of not speaking haltingly or searching for words, his accent was so strong that for me he was extremely hard to understand. (And I think as a non-native speaker I sometimes understand other non-natives better than natives do, but it can also be the other way round.)

[Happy Ent]

n example would be my fellow swedes pronouncing TH (a sound not present in Swedish) as D. Whenever I hear an adult say D instead of TH I want to go :bang:

There are plenty of native English accents that “mispronounce” the TH (both the ð in this and the θ in thing).

What really signals Swedish English to me are the sounds made at the beginning of chips and jeans.

[Happy Ent]

For communicating levels of fluency (for instance, describing your skills on a cv when applying for a job or studies abroad), I find the 5-level IRL scale useful. (“professional working proficiency”, etc.)

[Jo498]

On this scale I'd say that my understanding of "fluency" (without more precise qualifications) corresponds roughly to "professional working proficiency".

What some people in this thread have described sounded more like between levels 4 and 5 (native/bilingual).

I think my own level of English is a somewhat flawed 4 (full professional proficiency). I simply do not have enough practice in speaking (compared to reading and writing) so it sometimes takes me a few hours or so to get really comfortable and I do have a clear accent and will occassionally make mistakes.

[Lyanna Stark]

There are plenty of native English accents that “mispronounce” the TH (both the ð in this and the θ in thing).

What really signals Swedish English to me are the sounds made at the beginning of chips and jeans.

Listen to the Essex guy in the link for some fun "mispronunciations" (he made me laugh). It makes me want to shout "You wot mate!!!"

I'd say there are plenty of English accents that mispronounce many things, but I suppose the question is how much and what, and whether or not this means dialect or not. While working in the UK I found certain Scottish dialects to be completely incomprehensible (sort of like being stuck with someone speaking Danish on the phone, ouch! :P ).

Personally I can "pass" for a native for shorter periods of time (according to Liffguard's et al's Stamp of Approval from LonCon this summer!) but I make loads of mistakes all the same, as my dearest English born husband is quick to point out. On the other hand I point out his grammar mistakes as well, so an eye for an eye and all that. Hah! My bilingual daughter has issues with the "hard" sound in chips and jeans too. She also gets very confused by whether she should use American English or British English. We speak BE at home, she hears AE on TV and Youtube all the time.

Swedes generally have a much higher regard for their own English speaking skills than they should have as most just sound awful, both when it comes to mispronouncing words and just mangling grammar. I've also noticed a trend that to sound cool, people swear in English. To me it just sounds declassé and they come across as total wankers, but perhaps I am just the wrong age group to appreciate the finer points of trying to sound like you are a participant in "Jersey shore".

Anyway, fluent is a difficult concept. I've worked in the UK, lived there for a while and after a few years people didn't seem to suspect me of being foreign unless they saw my full name. However, I would not consider myself to be fluent, far from it. My ESOL level is only B and I totally failed on that "difficult English words" test that used to circulate on facebook. At least my SO got a good laugh out of it when I read it out to him, or more like staggered through it with great difficulty.

[Lummel]

... I've also noticed a trend that to sound cool, people swear in English. To me it just sounds declassé and they come across as total wankers, but perhaps I am just the wrong age group to appreciate the finer points of trying to sound like you are a participant in "Jersey shore".

She says, swearing in English! ;)

[Lyanna Stark]

She says, swearing in English! ;)

Swearing in written form is far more dignified than shouting it into the ether. :p

[baxus]

Swedes generally have a much higher regard for their own English speaking skills than they should have as most just sound awful, both when it comes to mispronouncing words and just mangling grammar. I've also noticed a trend that to sound cool, people swear in English. To me it just sounds declassé and they come across as total wankers, but perhaps I am just the wrong age group to appreciate the finer points of trying to sound like you are a participant in "Jersey shore".

Granted, you have way more experience with Swedish people than I do, but I was pleasantly surprised with their English when I was up there.

Though I was in Goteborg and it could be worse in smaller towns and villages for all I know.

As for swearing in English, it's really rare in Serbia.

Mainly because when it comes to curse words English is just no match for Serbian.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh and as for the word test I failed: here it is Test.. Can you pronounce it flawlessly? I could not! On the other hand it is set up to be extremely tricky and make you stumble. (Simile and Terpsichore get me every time, grr. Among others.).

[Lummel]

I knew a Czech woman once who would happily swear in English because she felt that swearing in Czech was just so much worse & had to saved for special occasions.

If your interpretation of fluency is sounding like a native speaker then it is going to be a moving target in any case. We all have our topolects, learning a foreign language with the intention of sounding like a native speaker is impossibly vague - it helps to have some idea of what variety of native speaker you want to sound like. Chances are that some topolects will be closer than others to the range of sounds that you can appreciate and hopefully pronounce.

[Knight Of Winter]

Thinking of it, it's hard to define "fluent in language". I guess it would mean being able to converse with native speaker without (too many) pauses and finding yourself at loss for words. As for written language, one interesting test I heard is: to be able to seamlessly read newspapers, for they cover such a wide variety of topics and words.

As for swearing in English, it's really rare in Serbia.

Mainly because when it comes to curse words English is just no match for Serbian.

I can relate to that. I remember when a guy from Canada came to local Croatian student club. Somehow we ended up talking about cursing, and we explained to him what are our most common ones and translated them in English. Guy was properly amazed.