Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[BrainFireBob]

Don't lose the forest for the trees.

The Great Fathers of Hyrkoon are the only males allowed to breed, and all the women could be seen as their wives. Rubies are also their preferred adornment. That reeks of a deliberate attempt at the panoply of the Great Empire of Dawn, through the lens of the Bloodstone (or, I suppose, red) Emperor, and the many many wives of the primogenitor of his race.

To me, there are two diasporas- one from the shores of the Silver Sea, and one across the Bones. This should be worked in.

The Dothraki recall crossing those mountains in their legends. The Jhogos Nai (tired and typing from memory, here, so I may have the name wrong) live in small kin groups, and the warriors wear topknots. The Dothraki form larger bands, true, but do it by swearing blood brotherhood (blood riders), which can be seen as a deliberate form of adoption, such as would be needed by a cluster of Jhogos Nai decimated kin groups uniting to survive in a new land. The Jhogos despoiled the lands of Hyrkoon- we don't know why- and the Dothraki too make farming and settled demesnes untenable. Both use a form of warrior top knot. The dosh khaleen live on the shores of their bottomless lake- a remnant of the Silver Sea- and all the connections to the moon that would imply; the Jhogos deliberately follow their moonsingers.

This implies a diaspora across the Bones, possibly in the time of the Long Night or its aftermath. Hence the bones in the Bones.

This may have triggered the second diaspora- the First Men, Andals, etc. Ahai, first king of the Sarnori, may have been from one of the invading peoples, which could explain the need to take wives from multiple preceding peoples.

The Old Man of the River is the great Turtle God in Mother Rhoyne. If Mother Rhoyne is the heavens (the Milky Way, if there is such; if not, the symbolism of solar and lunar barques may come into play here), then the Old Man of the River is the moon or the sun (ie, the turtle embodies the barques)- and the singing brought them back together was because the sun was not in harmony with the sky- not following his/her path, you see; consistent with the LN.

Your ideas are interesting. Beware attempting to form a grand unified theory of everything. There can be multiple threads in play- Garth Greenhand/Greenhair may be independent, or may embody the Children and their Greenseers, who require sacrifice and "whose time on the earth is short", etc. The true magic of the Barrow Kings may be that weird Stark afterlife that the living Starks perceive in dreams (as descendents of the Barrow Kings)- or the fact that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" may be to protect the family from the curse, which may in fact afflict them once out of the castle for enough time. Winterfell is old enough to be ringed with wards, after all.

I once theorized on here that the Children used the weirwoods as batteries for blood sacrifices, and that the reason they had the power to call down the Hammer and shatter Dorne but only succeeded in making the Neck marshy had to do with the fact they have such a low birth rate- they drained their fuel cells with the massive Hammer of Waters, and by the time they tried again, there wasn't enough juju built up/they couldn't afford to sacrifice the numbers required. Be careful of focusing so much on the alchemical imagery that you forget the nuts and bolts of how things have been established to work. Otherwise, very nice.

Here's one for you: What are the blue trees? Are they a parallel to weirwoods? Weirwoods apparently are like aspen trees- their roots tangle and murge and make a cluster of trees in truth a single plant. The transplanted one at the Eyrie, then, failed because it was cut off from the network. This raises the possibility that all weirwoods in Westeros are in fact one giant plant, interconnected deep in the soil by their roots. Do warlock trees do the same? Was the network ruptured when the Arm fell? Are the blue trees a replacement network created by the Ifquevron walkers? If so, were the Undying of Qarth a form of Greenseer, and does that change anything in the reading of their attempt to devour Daenerys in a global context?

EDIT: Even more rambly, how many names are we given for the Last Hero? Enough for his 12 companions- the signs of the zodiac, with the Hero as a solar deity?

[BrainFireBob]

Also also also, because I'm still rambly, and I think this thread was where Selkies were being discussed (if not sorry, been leaping about)- can't forget the Boltons. They are less creepy and more cool if they had selkie-like abilities. A flayed man having no secrets indeed- the Faceless Men do it, after all.

[J. Stargaryen]

Another good thread from LML. I don't have much to comment on at the moment, but the quote from Crowfood's Daughter about the black iron dragon is likely an Aegon Blackfyre hint. Keep in mind it's next to "roaring griffins." Hello, JonCon! And of course the fact that it's black and iron is similar to the Clanking Dragon sign story from Feast. Which also might be related to the time we see YG wearing "three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron." - ADwD, The Lost Lord. When rubies are described as something like big and "square-cut," it's a hint that there is a glamor at work, whether a literal glamor, like in the cases of Stannis's LB and Mance-as-Rattleshirt, or a figurative one with YG; i.e., YG isn't actually Rhaegar's son.

“Ahead,” Ser Jorah answered. “Under the mountain.” Beyond the horse gate, plundered gods and stolen heroes loomed to either side of them. The forgotten deities of dead cities brandished their broken thunderbolts at the sky as Dany rode her silver past their feet. Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones, their faces chipped and stained, even their names lost in the mists of time. Lithe young maidens danced on marble plinths, draped only in flowers, or poured air from shattered jars. Monsters stood in the grass beside the road; black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffins, manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name. Some of the statues were so lovely they took her breath away, others so misshapen and terrible that Dany could scarcely bear to look at them. Those, Ser Jorah said, had likely come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. “So many,” she said as her silver stepped slowly onward, “and from so many lands.”

He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon. - AFfC, Brienne VII

“The big square-cut gem that adorned his [Mance-as-Rattleshirt] iron cuff glimmered redly. “Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o’ love from Lady Red.” - ADwD, Jon IV

As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore. - ACoK, Catelyn II

[LmL]

Another good thread from LML. I don't have much to comment on at the moment, but the quote from Crowfood's Daughter about the black iron dragon is likely an Aegon Blackfyre hint. Keep in mind it's next to "roaring griffins." Hello, JonCon! And of course the fact that it's black and iron is similar to the Clanking Dragon sign story from Feast. Which also might be related to the time we see YG wearing "three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron." - ADwD, The Lost Lord. When rubies are described as something like big and "square-cut," it's a hint that there is a glamor at work, whether a literal glamor, like in the cases of Stannis's LB and Mance-as-Rattleshirt, or a figurative one with YG; i.e., YG isn't actually Rhaegar's son.

Very glad you liked it and thank you Ser, thanks for all your helpful suggestions at various times.

It may be doing more than one thing, but it's proximity to the roaring Griffins means it is surely a fAegon reference.. Do the Aegon Blackfyre / Brightflame folks know about this? If so, it's a fAegon reference in book one, a nice arrow in the quiver for the "but he can't introduce a new character in book 5" naysayers. That's interesting to connect the square cut rubies to illusions or false fronts. What about Aegon the Conqueror's crown, I believe it had square cut rubies also.

In the Bones mountains, the women of the three fortress cities are all about rubies and iron - iron nipple rings and rubies on their cheeks. It's mentioned a couple of times with them - iron and rubies - so it must be important.

[LmL]

Fisher Queens can refer to stars, because fisherman and sailors use stars to navigate and their life depends on them, so they rule over them. All is good when stars ruled, Fisher Queens or Hundred Queens! Maybe sequence is wrong after all humans meddled in affairs of the stars wanting to "usurp" their rule so everything went south. Silver sea is also quite peculiar, and can refer to starry sky.

Btw reading your explanation about end of the trade across Saffron Straits is like reading my own mind.

I have yet to hear your opinion about moonsingers, them being connected to the moon, to the singing (according to the Rhoynar legend singing is key to defeating LN, and COTF which helped end LN in Northern myth are known as singers) and being in the territory that was without the doubt in the GEOTD.

Thanks a lot EQ, I’ve been stumped on the meaning of Fisher Queen” other than to think about a star plunging into the ocean like a kingfisher bird or something. If Fisher Queens are stars via the idea of navigation as you suggested, that makes Huzhor Amai, the son of the last of the Fisher Queens, a kind of star-child, something like the child of the Maiden of Light and Lion of Night, the god-on-earth.Her city going around the silver sea - is that just a reference to the normal turning of the heavenly sphere? The silver sea fits a pattern that pops up all over the place - one big, glorious thing turning into three smaller things, frequently death associated. This pattern is a reference to the fire moon exposing, and three large impacts taking place on Planetos. The kingdom of hyrkoon - once a mighty kingdom, now three outposts of warrior women. There are now three god-emperors claiming the throne. There are plenty more, but that’s for future essays :) Then there is 3 things being blinded to the will of one other - Huzhor Amai marrying three women from three different tribes to unite them into a great civilization; the Dothraki Khal Mengo uniting threescore fractious clans into one mean army which then whooped ass; the three fold gate leading from the Shadow City (nice name) into Sunspear (sunspear = comet, again nice name) is the only way directly to the heart of the city - three gates need to be lined up and opened, kind of like a planet and two moons all lined up in a double eclipse formation. I think the magic swords also have three ingredients also. Three heads has the dragon.

As for the monsignors, they will certainly figure into the companion piece to this one (which is already 90% done) which traces all the descendants of the GEotD. I will leave that conversation for that thread, but yeah, moonsingers? That has my interest.

[LmL]

Don't lose the forest for the trees.

I love forests and trees both; no worries there. All the trees are connected, anyway, down where the roots and the fungi live.

The Great Fathers of Hyrkoon are the only males allowed to breed, and all the women could be seen as their wives. Rubies are also their preferred adornment. That reeks of a deliberate attempt at the panoply of the Great Empire of Dawn, through the lens of the Bloodstone (or, I suppose, red) Emperor, and the many many wives of the primogenitor of his race.

That’s an interesting idea. I definitely think George is doing something with the larger theme of gender balances of various kinds - the Black Brothers, Kingsguard, and the White Walkers (crater’s sons anyway) all being male and taking no wives, and then these warrior women of former Hyrkoon. I also thought the “great fathers” thing was a shout out to Orson Scott Card and Speaker for the Dead (the sequel to Ender’s Game, actually the first book Card wrote in the series).

To me, there are two diasporas- one from the shores of the Silver Sea, and one across the Bones. This should be worked in.

​Agree, you will like the companion piece to this which traces all the descendants and migrations from the GEotD. Although I think refugees from the GEotD did flow through the grasslands, the Silver Sea area certainly existed before the LN, in the Dawn Age, and certainly seem to be a major cultural dispersion point.

The Dothraki recall crossing those mountains in their legends. The Jhogos Nai (tired and typing from memory, here, so I may have the name wrong) live in small kin groups, and the warriors wear topknots. The Dothraki form larger bands, true, but do it by swearing blood brotherhood (blood riders), which can be seen as a deliberate form of adoption, such as would be needed by a cluster of Jhogos Nai decimated kin groups uniting to survive in a new land. The Jhogos despoiled the lands of Hyrkoon- we don't know why- and the Dothraki too make farming and settled demesnes untenable. Both use a form of warrior top knot. The dosh khaleen live on the shores of their bottomless lake- a remnant of the Silver Sea- and all the connections to the moon that would imply; the Jhogos deliberately follow their moonsingers.

This implies a diaspora across the Bones, possibly in the time of the Long Night or its aftermath. Hence the bones in the Bones.

This may have triggered the second diaspora- the First Men, Andals, etc. Ahai, first king of the Sarnori, may have been from one of the invading peoples, which could explain the need to take wives from multiple preceding peoples.

​Really, really fantastic comments here BrainFireBob. A lot of this material is already in the sequel to this, but you turned up a couple things I had not, which will now be added in. Consider yourself as having earned a hat-tip, ser. I don’t want to get into the nitty gritty of your comments because I’m having that whole discussion for the other thread, but you are going to find much to agree with, I think. :cheers:

The Old Man of the River is the great Turtle God in Mother Rhoyne. If Mother Rhoyne is the heavens (the Milky Way, if there is such; if not, the symbolism of solar and lunar barques may come into play here), then the Old Man of the River is the moon or the sun (ie, the turtle embodies the barques)- and the singing brought them back together was because the sun was not in harmony with the sky- not following his/her path, you see; consistent with the LN.

​That’s a very good insight, the turtles as solar (and lunar potentially) barques, even assuming the river is the milky way (the Egyptians certainly saw the Nile as the milky way and built the pyramids to match the positions of stars as they were positioned in relation to the milky way on the summer equinox of a specific year - 10,500 BCE). The Old Man of the River had to sing a song with the crab god - what’s that crab representing here? Is this a cancer reference or a more general reference to sea creatures? Is he the antagonist of the sun (the turtle being the sun or solar barque)?

Your ideas are interesting. Beware attempting to form a grand unified theory of everything. NAW, FUCK IT There can be multiple threads in play- Garth Greenhand/Greenhair may be independent, or may embody the Children and their Greenseers, who require sacrifice and "whose time on the earth is short", etc. The true magic of the Barrow Kings may be that weird Stark afterlife that the living Starks perceive in dreams (as descendents of the Barrow Kings)- or the fact that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" may be to protect the family from the curse, which may in fact afflict them once out of the castle for enough time. Winterfell is old enough to be ringed with wards, after all.

​I definitely think the “Stark in Wintefell” thing is connected to magic, and a pact of some sort in all likelihood. I’m not sure if that has to do with the Barrow King curse or not - it may - but either way, it does seem to indicate something special about the bloodline - who are they descended from? Is it Other blood that they have that is important, or cotf blood by way of the Warg King and the Marsh King? or both? Who is BtB - a cotf? Or a GEotD person using spellcraft to raise his constructions?

​One idea I have is that Garth may be buried in the Barrow. He’s the “High King of the First Men,” while the Barrow King was “First King, who once ruled supreme over all the First Men.” Garth is obviously a Corn King figure, whose death and resurrection correlates to the turning of the seasons and regeneration, so his death in the Dawn Age should have been the original sacrifice to bring the Dawn - the spring - and thus his potential connection to the Barrow King and the curse is very intriguing. It’s almost like the point of him dying was to hang that curse on someone else - whoever was threatening to conquer the entire world at that time, during the Long Night. Know of anyone like that? :cool4:

I once theorized on here that the Children used the weirwoods as batteries for blood sacrifices, and that the reason they had the power to call down the Hammer and shatter Dorne but only succeeded in making the Neck marshy had to do with the fact they have such a low birth rate- they drained their fuel cells with the massive Hammer of Waters, and by the time they tried again, there wasn't enough juju built up/they couldn't afford to sacrifice the numbers required. Be careful of focusing so much on the alchemical imagery that you forget the nuts and bolts of how things have been established to work. Otherwise, very nice.

Ok, so my big problem (one of them) with he cotf being responsible for the Hammer of the Waters - why didn’t they use smaller hammers to whoop ass on the First Men? If the Hammer took so much magical mana or sacrifice, as you and others have suggested, they why the fuck didn’t they do smaller hammers first? Every time the First Men gather in force in one location - boom. Hammer them. Every ring fort - hammer. The breaking of the arm of Dorne was a HUGE, catastrophic event. In fact, whether it was caused by a meteor or a magical working, the disaster would be so huge that it stretches credibility a little bit to believe anything survived at all. We are talking about a dinosaur-killer meteor sized explosion to be big enough to destroy an entire isthmus. Now, it’s fantasy and magic and all that, so whatever, close enough But my point is - if that was cotf magic, good god, man - that’s a freaking RIDICULOUSLY strong magic. If they can do that, they why couldn’t they do smaller versions of it? Drop a few hammers on a few ring forts and YOU drive the terms of the settlement pact... or just send the FM back where they came from.

Also, as it is pointed out in TWOAIF, it makes NO SENSE to break the arm after thousands of FM already crossed. None. why waste all your resources to do that? At that point, they should have gone straight for the Neck as a checkpoint to hammer. And supposedly they did the hammer at the neck from the children’s tower of Moat Cailin. That’s bullshit; cotf don’t live in towers or even gather in them. They are woods creatures - when they work a huge magic, it will be in a weirwood grove or a cave, not a crusty tower. And what’s up with Moat Cailin anyway? The Crannogmen don’t live there, and probably didn’t build it. It’s stones are black and greasy too... There’s something else entirely going on here that goes beyond the cotf.

​The cotf have never been seen to have any kind of magic that could explain the Hammer of the Waters - i believe this is simply the masters and the common people attributing something they don’t understand to the “magical people” that they also don’t understand. The hammer of the waters was just what it sounds like - a meteor hitting the surface and causing huge tidal waves. The breaking of the arm of dorne was the most important event in the history of westeros, the masters suggest, and I believe they are right. But it was connected to the LN and the moon rock impacts.

​Likely the storms of the Durran Godsgrief legend are connected to this. The idea of him stealing a daughter of the gods from heaven may be a memory of the falling star which landed at the arm and caused the huge tidal waves and storms - the wrath of the gods. Elenei is the star that fell into the sea. The Grey King stealing fire from the gods, slaying the ‘sea dragon’ (translation = flaming meteor that fell into the ocean), and marrying a mermaid may all be references to a similar idea.

​One of the Stepstones is even named bloodstone... nice of George to leave a big red flag like that.

Here's one for you: What are the blue trees? Are they a parallel to weirwoods? Weirwoods apparently are like aspen trees- their roots tangle and murge and make a cluster of trees in truth a single plant. The transplanted one at the Eyrie, then, failed because it was cut off from the network. This raises the possibility that all weirwoods in Westeros are in fact one giant plant, interconnected deep in the soil by their roots. Do warlock trees do the same? Was the network ruptured when the Arm fell? Are the blue trees a replacement network created by the Ifquevron walkers? If so, were the Undying of Qarth a form of Greenseer, and does that change anything in the reading of their attempt to devour Daenerys in a global context?

They seem to be an inversion of the weirwood trees. Fire and Ice are opposite forces, but these two trees are like inverted analogs of each other, which is a different concept. I’m going to do an essay on the 5 magical elements as George is using them, with the cotf obviously being earth as the central, balancing force. So that warlock trees, being an inversion of this, would be agents for -unbalance - that’s consistent with the Undying’s attempt to cheat death. What I would really like to know is what they had planned to do with a chained up Dany and Drogon. Do they think they can use fire magic? They are heavily associated with shadows, and we’ve seen that much of the fire magic in the story is more associated with shadows than light - so is there a connection there?

​I had not thought of the warlock trees as once being weir woods that were cut off or warped somehow, but that’s interesting. I think the Ifequevron were probably the same as cotf - they were cotf - so I wouldn’t think they made the warlock trees, but who knows. Qarth is an interesting place with gobs and gobs of GEotD imagery laying around, and its also the source of the moon cracking and dragons pouring forth myth.

EDIT: Even more rambly, how many names are we given for the Last Hero? Enough for his 12 companions- the signs of the zodiac, with the Hero as a solar deity?

I think the last Hero refers to the remaining moon, and I do think the 12 companions are a zodiac allusion. The LH could also be Orion, also seen as Hercules, who stands astride the ecliptic but is not a zodiac constellation. Garth has 12 children, some of them smell a bit like zodiac signs.. hint hint... *cough* *future essay* *cough*

Thanks for the great comments BrainFireBob, I really enjoyed them. Did you read my first two in this series?

[LmL]

Also also also, because I'm still rambly, and I think this thread was where Selkies were being discussed (if not sorry, been leaping about)- can't forget the Boltons. They are less creepy and more cool if they had selkie-like abilities. A flayed man having no secrets indeed- the Faceless Men do it, after all.

What’s the Selkie-Bolton connection that you are seeing?

[Modesty Lannister]

Again, a monumental work LmL. I wouldn't like to be your boss in real life. Lol. Hilarity aside, I agree with Equilibrium's assessment of your latest work in terms of clarity of thought. I will comment further after another reread. Kudos to BrainFireBob's comments. You should make a thread about the weirnet.

At this stage, I'd like to point something that all of you should keep in mind when discussing amethyst princess. I have been wearing an old amethyst ring I inherited from my grandmother all my adult life (I know we are not supposed to share personal information, but this is related to the theory, so let's let it slide), so I had plenty of time to observe it and study it. The colour of the stone is basically purple, but it can switch to green. I noticed (and that was confirmed to me by people who studied it) that the colour purple prevails when I am healthy and my energy is normal or high. But, when my energy is low or I'm sick, the colour turns to green. Each time. So, comparing Daynes to Lannisters in our story, they seem like inverse Daynes. While Daynes are honourable, Lannisters are tricksters (or Lan was and we have no idea about his origin). Daynes have purple eyes, while Lannisters have green eyes, like two aspects of amethyst. So, I'd go as far as to imply that while Daynes are descendants of the Amethyst Princess, Lannisters can be seen as descendants of the Bloodstone emperor, her nemesis. As I said to you before, bloodstone is essentially dark green with red specks. This is a direct allusion to the nemesis of purple, the other opposite dark aspect of amethyst and red specks are a clear allusion to blood betrayal. So, the bloodstone emperor can be read as an amethyst prince who, due to his blood betrayal, reversed the colour of amethyst from healthy purple to sick green specked with blood of the amethyst princess = the appearance of bloodstone. So, beware people with green eyes. That's all I'm saying.

[LmL]

Again, a monumental work LmL. I wouldn't like to be your boss in real life. Lol. Hilarity aside, I agree with Equilibrium's assessment of your latest work in terms of clarity of thought. I will comment further after another reread. Kudos to BrainFireBob's comments. You should make a thread about the weirnet.

At this stage, I'd like to point something that all of you should keep in mind when discussing amethyst princess. I have been wearing an old amethyst ring I inherited from my grandmother all my adult life (I know we are not supposed to share personal information, but this is related to the theory, so let's let it slide), so I had plenty of time to observe it and study it. The colour of the stone is basically purple, but it can switch to green. I noticed (and that was confirmed to me by people who studied it) that the colour purple prevails when I am healthy and my energy is normal or high. But, when my energy is low or I'm sick, the colour turns to green. Each time. So, comparing Daynes to Lannisters in our story, they seem like inverse Daynes. While Daynes are honourable, Lannisters are tricksters (or Lan was and we have no idea about his origin). Daynes have purple eyes, while Lannisters have green eyes, like two aspects of amethyst. So, I'd go as far as to imply that while Daynes are descendants of the Amethyst Princess, Lannisters can be seen as descendants of the Bloodstone emperor, her nemesis. As I said to you before, bloodstone is essentially dark green with red specks. This is a direct allusion to the nemesis of purple, the other opposite dark aspect of amethyst and red specks are a clear allusion to blood betrayal. So, the bloodstone emperor can be read as an amethyst prince who, due to his blood betrayal, reversed the colour of amethyst from healthy purple to sick green specked with blood of the amethyst princess = the appearance of bloodstone. So, beware people with green eyes. That's all I'm saying.

Hey hey, very nice work there Modesty. That’s a very interesting concept, the purple to green amethyst connection. I’ll point out that bloodstone occasionally has yellow flecks instead of red - that’s when it is called plasma. Green with flecks of yellow is very close to green with flecks of gold. Lannister eyes are often described in luminescent terms... and there was a Jade green emperor as well, so you’ve actually got two options there for green eyed descendants. And Lann? He’s said to have “appeared from out of the east." The east! Thousands of years before the Andals, before the LN if the maesters are correct.

Perhaps there’s no need to be a secret Targaryen when you’re a secret GeoDawnian. :cool4:

Is this idea going to make the “I WILL BURN MY BOOKS IF TYRION IS A TARG” people absolutely roast their domes or what? LoL’s for dayzzzzz

[Durran Durrandon]

Okay, just made it it to the end of this thread. Nice work.It was fun reading this. I was less familiar with what you were going to write than your last two pieces. This and a new chapter in one day.

I'm thinking a lot about the Shadow. You were suggesting that the area was formerly farmland to support Asshai. I'm not sure if that is necessary as Asshai could have been a wealthy enough trading city to import its food, supplementing local sea food resources. But more importantly, I am looking at the Shadow on the map, and any way you look at it is a big mountain, not great farmland even before the corruption, unless they went all Inca style on it.. I suppose the coastal plain could have been particularly fertile farmland. Thinking . . . thinking . . .

[LmL]

Okay, just made it it to the end of this thread. Nice work.It was fun reading this. I was less familiar with what you were going to write than your last two pieces. This and a new chapter in one day.

I'm thinking a lot about the Shadow. You were suggesting that the area was formerly farmland to support Asshai. I'm not sure if that is necessary as Asshai could have been a wealthy enough trading city to import its food, supplementing local sea food resources. But more importantly, I am looking at the Shadow on the map, and any way you look at it is a big mountain, not great farmland even before the corruption, unless they went all Inca style on it.. I suppose the coastal plain could have been particularly fertile farmland. Thinking . . . thinking . . .

Volcanic soil is very fertile, and many people have done well farming at the foot of a volcano (Pompeii for example), so perhaps that is what is going on. I don’t know what climate saffron grows in ff the top of my head (which today means that I haven’t googled it yet). We don’t know if there’s volcanism in the heart of the shadow, but it seems possible or even likely. I’m thinking the lands nearer the coats were very fertile. Perhaps across the straights in Ulthos used to be good farmland. Perhaps the Yi Ti area was the main breadbasket. But to build a metropolis there, you’d need some food nearby and clean water, and a very consistent and dependable trade established, which still gets back to a healthy peninsula and saffron trade flowing through the straights. We know gold and gems are plentiful, so it’s certainly a rich land.. if not poisoned, it would be a nice place like everything else on the Jade Sea.

[Durran Durrandon]

So, apparently I had the good timing to release this on the same day as a new Winds of Winter sample chapter. No worries though, as these longer threads and conversations tend to run for a few weeks. But, there is an very helpful but of info in regards to Saffron and the Saffron Straights by Asshai.

If you haven't read the new sample chapter, it's an "Alayne" one, and it's up on George's website.

Saffron isn't just a valuable spice - it's more valuable by weight than gold (that's why the father named his daughter Saffron, to signify that she is more valuable than gold), and merchants who trade in the stuff (recall the Spicer's Guild in Qarth) become ludicrously wealthy. This is another indication that the name "Saffron Straights" indicates that a thriving trade in this oh-so-valuable spice once flowed through those straights, and that Asshai, a port city at the mouth of these straights, would have dominated this market and grown wealthy. It indicates that yes, lands do lie beyond Asshai with people and civilization and stuff.

Yeah, I was thinking of you when I read that. Also, Sansa is funny.

[LmL]

Yeah, I was thinking of you when I read that. Also, Sansa is funny.

Yeah, without derailing this into TWOW spoiler material, I am liking Sansa more and more. She's becoming witty in a very understated way. It stops short of sarcastic but its very clever. I can't help but think under different circumstances Tyrion and Sansa would have made a good pair.

[Lenabot]

Finally all caught up. Largely agree with most of the core ideas, though I'm sure we're all a little hit-and-miss with the truth -- like trying to fit together a jigsaw with missing pieces, and trying to carve some of our own pieces to compensate.

Addressing some minor things:

I think it's very likely that the Great Empire of the Dawn acquired its vast wealth via maritime trade -- as most real-life empires did. Given that the Empire was around for so long, and especially since it had next to no opposition, it's very likely that they explored most of the known world. Thus accounting for a lot of the black stone structures scattered near bodies of water.

I find it unlikely that the Shadow Lands were ever used for agricultural purposes. I think you're channeling Mordor, there. The difference between Mordor and the Shadow Lands is that Mordor was merely surrounded by tall mountains. Within, it had flat land on which to farm. The peninsula beyond Asshai is described in maps as being entirely mountainous -- no flat land to farm on.

The region of Yi Ti and the Plains of the Jogos Nhai were more likely used by the Empire for farming. I'm sure fishing and sea trade played a huge part in acquiring food, too.

"Selkies/Deep Ones" may simply be a result of dragon-bonding experiments, as are the Winged Men and other "lizard-like" peoples mentioned here and there in lore. And, ultimately, Valyrians (being "blood of the dragon" and half-insane).

[LmL]

Finally all caught up. Largely agree with most of the core ideas, though I'm sure we're all a little hit-and-miss with the truth -- like trying to fit together a jigsaw with missing pieces, and trying to carve some of our own pieces to compensate.

Addressing some minor things:

I think it's very likely that the Great Empire of the Dawn acquired its vast wealth via maritime trade -- as most real-life empires did. Given that the Empire was around for so long, and especially since it had next to no opposition, it's very likely that they explored most of the known world. Thus accounting for a lot of the black stone structures scattered near bodies of water.

It definitely seems like they were a maritime power. Since the Amr of Dorne was not broken at the time, they wouldn't have made it to the shivering sea.

I find it unlikely that the Shadow Lands were ever used for agricultural purposes. I think you're channeling Mordor, there. The difference between Mordor and the Shadow Lands is that Mordor was merely surrounded by tall mountains. Within, it had flat land on which to farm. The peninsula beyond Asshai is described in maps as being entirely mountainous -- no flat land to farm on.

The region of Yi Ti and the Plains of the Jogos Nhai were more likely used by the Empire for farming. I'm sure fishing and sea trade played a huge part in acquiring food, too.

So you're not buying my entire arguemt that Asshai and the shadowlands used to be a nice place?

"Selkies/Deep Ones" may simply be a result of dragon-bonding experiments, as are the Winged Men and other "lizard-like" peoples mentioned here and there in lore. And, ultimately, Valyrians (being "blood of the dragon" and half-insane).

Yes, that's possible. The greasy black stone seems connected to human animal hybrid experiments. But it does seem there is a lot of interbreeding between the old races and humans, and I wouldn't think the greasy stone accounts for all of it. But maybe it does.

[LmL]

I just noticed how much "TWOIAF stuff" is actually in book one. We've talked about the gemstone eyed kings of course, but check out this passage:

..listening to the high ululating voices of the spellsingers, gaping at manticores in silver cages and immense grey elephants and the striped black- and- white horses of the Jogos Nhai. She enjoyed watching all the people too: dark solemn Asshai’i and tall pale Qartheen, the bright- eyed men of Yi Ti in monkey- tail hats, warrior maids from Bayasabhad, Shamyriana, and Kayakayanaya with iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks, even the dour and frightening Shadow Men, who covered their arms and legs and chests with tattoos and hid their faces behind masks. The Eastern Market was a place of wonder and magic for Dany.

I wonder what is meant by "dark, solemn Asshai." Theyve never really been referred to as a race of people anywhere else. I wonder if this is an early idea that George discarded, or just Dany's fairly uninformed impressions. But there's the monkey tail Yi Ti hats, the warrior maids from the Bones mountains, the Joghos Nhai... These Shadow men sound like shadow binders, afraid to show their faces. But yeah, when I go into the warrior women of the Bones mountains I don't want to hear any crying about stuff in the Worldbook not being relevent. No crying, you hear that Worldbook unbelievers?

[Durran Durrandon]

Monkey tail hats! Are you kidding me?

[Lenabot]

Oh, no, I think Asshai/the Shadow Lands used to be a normal enough place.

I'm just saying that it's ridiculously hard to farm in mountains (whether they be good-mountains or evil-mountains). The peninsula is described as being almost entirely mountainous, save for the city of Asshai itself.

Unless you're implying the mountains were somehow made from the moon impact? Or do you presume the Shadow Lands are off-the-map and lie beyond the mountains? Because most texts indicate that the Shadow Lands are just the mountainous peninsula.

As for author's intent, I'd wonder if Martin ever intended for the Empire to be the home of the first dragonriders -- and if the Gemstone Emperors were originally meant to be Valyrian. I remember him saying that he never meant for the map to go far beyond Slaver's Bay (and that anything east of there wasn't really intended to be fleshed out, story-wise). He may have had a lot of fun world building, and then he added in the Great Empire as a precursor to everything. But maybe not.

[LmL]

Monkey tail hats! Are you kidding me?

They're mentioned twice, even. Yeah. Monkey tail hats. And - they're worn by the "bright-eyed" men of Yi Ti.

[Hoodwinked]

Hey man! You want me to ruin part 15 of the series?? Come on now! Hah ha, just kidding, I haven't really spent to much time trying to predict the ending yet. I'm not even sure the same magic swords will be needed - I mean, probably, not maybe not. Brienne has my attention right now, because she seems to be doing blood sacrifices to heart trees with Ned's sword and because of all the obvious Morningstar / Evenstar symbolism around her. Not sure if she is forging a sword for someone else to use, or for her to use... And Dawn, I assume it's down in Starfall. The only two candidates to wield it would be Edric Dayne (who has certainly gained in martial prowess with the Brotherhood without Banners), or Darkstar. If Darkstarr gets it, we may be looking at a role reversal - the "bad guy" having Dawn this time and the "good guy" with Lightbringer. I really don't know. It could be that magic swords were the thing last time, and this time it's going to be more of an ice dragon vs fire dragon thing - it's really hard to say. I do plan to dig into that once I get this ancient drama over to westeros.. Maybe by part 6?

Hmm, long winded author who can't manage to get his series back to Westeros... Where have I heard that before..

Thanks for the answer. I look forward to your next essay. I enjoy your writing and theories :). Best of luck.