Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[LmL]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the text suggest Jojen's eyes were turned green after he developed the greensight from greywater fever? That was the impression I had.

Any idea which book that's in???

That would be very interesting if true. I know the Farwynds have color-changing eyes, which reminds me of opal or pearl, and the iridescent sheen they have.

I'm not saying changing eye color via magic is implausible - hardly. I'm merely saying if that's what Martin was thinking, we should be able to find corroboration. I'm hesitant to go too far with an idea unless there are textual clues. Whenever Martin hides a mystery he leaves clues.

[Modesty Lannister]

I checked. Jojen's eyes in ACOK and in ADWD, so before and during fever are the same - green, colour of moss.

Jojen's eyes were the color of moss, and sometimes when he looked at you he seemed to be seeing something else. Like now. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

Bran IV, ACoK

Jojen's eyes were a dark green, the color of moss, but heavy with a weariness that Bran had never seen in them before. The little grandfather. South of the Wall, the boy from the crannogs had seemed to be wise beyond his years, but up here he was as lost and frightened as the rest of them. Even so, Meera always listened to him.

Bran I, ADWD

[Mithras]

Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance.

I think Jojen's eyes must always have been green to denote his gift of greendreams. His greenfever must be the near death experience required to open his third eye.

[LmL]

I will comment more after rereading certain parts of the World Book. I just wanted to drop this bit for the time being.

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

“All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man’s dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?”

“We would have no more need of ravens.”

Ravens are associated with the CotF. The maesters learned the ravencraft from the CotF. This bolded sentence implies a significant change like abandoning the CotF and surrendering to a new power group (the Church of Starry Wisdom - CoSW).

We are shown that commanding the information flow and knowledge is very important. At first, the CotF was the NSA of the humans with their ravens knowing every message they carried and their weirwoods witnessing every important event. But over the time, their monopoly over intelligence deteriorated because the maesters stopped being skinchangers and the Faith of the Seven replaced the Faith of the Old Gods below the Neck. The final blow came when those glass candles were installed to the center of knowledge and information in Westeros.

I had not really fully contemplated the ramifications of this, even though I did think about it. The cotf knew EVERYTHING they did. Let’s look at this scenario differently, starting with the idea that the First Men adopted the 1.) religion of the cotf, including blood sacrifice to activate weirwoods and skinchanging (Warg King, Marsh King, House Crane, House Stark) 2.) ravencraft including the ability to speak with ravens and probably skin change them in all likelihood, and 3.) apparently learned advanced skills from the cotf - Brandon the Builder, for one, and the Last Hero and his broken Sword for another. CotF seem to have been involved with the founding of the Citadel, and certainly its early goings-on, which needs its own thread.

Basically, it seems like the CotF were trying to raise man out of savagery and barbarism to some extent. They were trying to teach man their ways as a way of taming him. They basically succeeded until the bloody Andals came along...

Perhaps this whole thing is an ongoing battle for tens of thousands of years and the humans are just simple pawns in a game extending beyond the human history. I agree that the GEotD came as far as Oldtown but the CotF defeated them decisively by interfering with their dragons using skinchanging. That battle might be the root of the name Battle Isle.

This is what I think as well, more or less. The GEotD established the Battle Isle fortress before the Bloodstone E took over, I believe. Dragons were there, roosting as people say, and they were used to build that fused stone fortress. I believe the GEotD represents the “safer” or “more natural” method dragon taming - likely something more like the warg-wold bond, as opposed to this dreadful “3 sacrifices to wake the dragon” idea, or simply blood magic in general. Anyway, point is, the GEotD came there as traders, like the Phoenicians, the earliest naval power of the mediterranean and beyond in recorded history. They had a habit of building outpost cities just offshore, and in the form of fortresses, such as Sidon and Tyre. Sometimes these fortresses outposts would be a toehold in a foreign land, or a colony. Carthage started this way. This is what Battle Isle is to me. They did trade with the cotf I bet, an interesting notion. This was before the CoSW.

So, when That Big Asshole Bloodstone guy usurped, it was only a matter of time before he came to Westeros as well. This would be when the battle happened, involving the cotf skibchaging / psy assaulting the dragons as well as the sword Dawn clashing with the red sword of villains, Dark Lightbringer.

I think it is likely that there is a significant time gap between the GEotD and the Golden Empire of Yi Ti as LmL suggested. This makes me think that perhaps the Long Night as we know (which happened 8000 years ago) was not the first one. The first catastrophe involving the destruction of the Second Moon wiped out the GEotD, created the Shadowlands and burned Asshai. So, the battle that gave the name to the Battle Isle was fought during this era. And I think the people of the GEotD were not exactly what we can call humans. They were probably some sort of hybrid creatures, which is implied by their unnatural gemstone eye colors and hair. Then, the Dawn Age should come. Only after the catastrophe that wiped out the GEotD, the normal humans should emerge from the shadows and prosper. The evolution shows that the mammals came to power only after the giant reptiles were wiped out by a nasty impact. Wink Wink.

I’m open to the idea of multiple Long Night events, though a bit skeptical. Is there any textual support for that idea? If so, I haven’t seen it or recognized it. I really think the Dawn Age & Age of Heroes simply means “everything before the Long Night.” Those two are arbitrary distinctions made by the maesters, but really, almost everyone would have died during the Long Night. Total famine, total anarchy and upheaval of all governing bodies, anarchy, acts of desperation, and or course secondary natural disasters like tsunamis and volcanoes. Basically, the survivors would not have had history books, and for generations, the only concern would be basic survival. All of the memories from before that era would be a bit foggy, especially 10,000 years later. So the Age of Heroes and Dawn Age really are just terms to refer to everything we remember, collectively, from before the disaster.

Now, I do agree with your idea about humans // mammals and evolution. Here’s how I see that: the LN disaster was bad for humans, but even worse for giants, deep ones, old ones, etc etc - the “old races.” Your idea about the GEotD being not entirely human is intriguing. Certainly they were wizards. But in nay case, it was this LN disaster that cleared the deck, and once humans got off their ass and organized a bit, the were the ones to fill it.

So, here is my suggested timeline:

The Age of GEotD

The First Long Night (The Blood Betrayal, Destruction of the Second Moon; The Battle at the Battle Isle; The GEotD comes to an end, Asshai is burned to crisp; the seasons are thrown out of balance; The CoSW retreats to hiding in shadows).

Humans start multiplying their numbers and advance in technology since their oppressors are no more.

The resources grow short for the increasing number of humans. Civil Wars and other problems (like successive long winters) drive the humans to look for a new home.

Dawn Age

ca.-12,000: The First Men cross the Arm and invade Westeros. This makes the CoSW happy.

ca.-10,000: Signing of the Pact to the dismay of the CoSW.

Age of Heroes

ca.-10,000: Many legends are found in this era. The First Men are eventually assimilated to the Faith of the Old Gods possibly through intermarriages between humans and CotF.

ca.-8,000: The Second Long Night: The CoSW Strikes Back. Since Westeros suffers the most from this Long Night, we can assume that Westeros is the true target of this catastrophe. Thanks to a renewed alliance between the CotF and the humans, this Long Night was averted, though not completely. The seasons are still unbalanced.

This idea of two Long Nights would be fairly incompatible with the idea of the moon destruction being the cause.. I also am pretty sure that the Hammer of the Water which broke the armor Drone was a meteor impact, one of three... there’s a Stepstone named “bloodstone,” though of course that’s not the only clue. Anyway, if there is only one long night, not that much really changes on this timeline so far. WE both agree the Dawn Age happened before a genetic bottleneck event. The CoSW seems to have been founded by the BSE at the time of the LN, so if the FM-cotf pact really was signed in the Dawn Age, the CoSW would not have been around to cry at the time.

But, I actually think the pact may have made AFTER this battle on battle isle, so during the long night. Basically, the cotf helped the FM / Dayne ancestors (Amethyst Empress people?) win the fight at Battle Isle, and then the pact was made. Part of the pact was that the CoTF would continue to ward Westeros from dragons as long as the FM didn’t cut down any more trees. This explains the conspicuously-presented mystery of why Valyria never tried to conquer ancient Westeros, even though it was rich but disorganized. It also explains why Aegon invaded the day Hareenhall was finished. Harrenhall was a blasphemy in every way, burning weirwoods and committing atrocities in its building, and right next to the God’s Eye, a holy place. I believe this was the last straw for the pact. The Andals crimes were not enough to break the pact, but Harren’s family was a FM family (iirc).

ca.-8,000: Soon after the crushing defeat again, the CoSW makes a new plan and decides to boost the Valyrians who were simple sheepherding folk at that time. through glass candles, the Valyrians are introduced into shadow magic, blood magic and eventually dragon creation. The Andals adopt a Faith based on astronomy (the fingerprint of the CoSW can be seen here) which eventually drives them to invade Westeros.The Andal Invasion

I’m with you...

ca.-6,000: The Andal Invasion: A significant victory for the CoSW. The power of the CotF was cut from the South of the Neck and the humans adopted the Faith of the Seven.

I really like this idea. I want to pm you and develop it further.. I’d like to show you my notes on the Andals connection to the GEotD.

ca.-5,000: The Age of Valyria. The Valyrians are at the height of their power. Now they can produce and train dragons efficiently. The have century old dragons. The Empire of Old Ghis is first to fall with their religion. The Rhoynar follow them eventually. The CoSW cannot suffer the presence of other religions, which is typical from what have seen about the Red Faith.

ca.-1000: The glass candles are installed to the Citadel. This is a significant victory for the CoSW. They corrupt and convert the Hightowers. The memory of the CotF is wiped out systematically.

I like all this too, but it’s possible the Hightowers have been starry wisdom assholes the whole time. Hard to say, your idea is plausible. I do like the angle of the CoSW trying to replace Ravens. Do you think the Citadel knew how to use them, then, 1,000 years ago? The candles that is?

More on the glass Candles

We do not even know the true size of Sothoryos. Qartheen maps once showed it as an island, twice the size of Great Moraq, but their trading ships, venturing farther and farther down the eastern coats, were never able to find the bottom of it. The Ghiscari who settled Zamettar and Gorosh believed Sothoryos to be as large as Westeros. Jaenara Belaerys flew her dragon, Terrax , farther south than any man or woman had ever gone before, seeking the boiling seas and steaming rivers of legend, but found only endless jungle, deserts, and mountains. She returned to the Freehold after three years to declare that Sothoryos was as large as Essos, “a land without end.”

Two persons with glass candles separated half a world apart can talk with each other according to Marwyn. However, Jaenara Belaerys proves that a sorcerer with a single glass candle cannot see any random place. Otherwise, the sorcerers of Valyria would look at Sothoryos and not need to send a dragonrider to scout the continent.

Good logic. Like magics in many fantasy novels, you need to have seen a place before you ‘travel’ there, or in this case “see” there. Makes sense.

So, how can Quaithe find and reach Dany without any apparent difficulty?

The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany’s wrist. “You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?”

“She is, and no spawn of shadows may touch her.” Jhogo brushed Quaithe’s fingers away with the handle of his whip.

The woman took a step backward. “You must leave this city soon, Daenerys Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leave it at all.”

Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her.

I think this is how Quaithe “bookmarked” Dany.

I think this is a great catch. Very cool.

Thanks for the idea hear, and I look forward to hearing your opinion on the other stuff in the essay. :)

[Modesty Lannister]

Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance.

I think Jojen's eyes must always have been green to denote his gift of greendreams. His greenfever must be the near death experience required to open his third eye.

Which leads to the question. How was Bran marked as greennseer? He has no green nor red eyes like Jojen or Bloodraven. I agree that a trauma is needed to open one's magical potential, but ... how did Bloodraven know Bran is "the one"?

What is interesting here is that, again, we have colour inversion. This time green to red (like amethyst purple into green). We also have three basic colours yellow, red and green, which symbolically reinforce the idea that CotF is in harmony with nature.

[LmL]

Which leads to the question. How was Bran marked as greennseer? He has no green nor red eyes like Jojen or Bloodraven. I agree that a trauma is needed to open one's magical potential, but ... how did Bloodraven know Bran is "the one"?

What is interesting here is that, again, we have colour inversion. This time green to red (like amethyst purple into green). We also have three basic colours yellow, red and green, which symbolically reinforce the idea that CotF is in harmony with nature.

That’s a damn good question. Maybe his eyes will turn red at some point? I doubt it, I think I agree that they seem to be born with the red or green eyes. So Bran... what about the dire wolf? How did it get south of the wall? Do you think BR warged the wolf to send it to the Starks?

[Modesty Lannister]

That’s a damn good question. Maybe his eyes will turn red at some point? I doubt it, I think I agree that they seem to be born with the red or green eyes. So Bran... what about the dire wolf? How did it get south of the wall? Do you think BR warged the wolf to send it to the Starks?

I do not belong to the school of thought that thinks BR is behind 99% events in the books or could do miracles. If that were the case, Targaryens would be sitting on the IT. Logically speaking, a direwolf could have crossed the shallow waters around Shadow Tower during the summer. Wolves can swim, so we can assume direwolves can as well. The direwolf in question could have been led by her motherly instinct to give birth where it is safer and warmer.

Also, a direwolf lives in a den. What if a den where the direwolf in question made her den turned out to be one of the tunnels that lead under the Wall and further south? This would mean that she emerged not far from that stonehenge inside which Ned Stark did the ritualistic beheading of the NW deserter. It stands to reason these tunnels exist, because during winters, people in the north could not cross large distances above ground. Castle Black retreats underground during winter. So does Moletown. I know we are talking hundreds of kilometres of tunnels, but, if Bran the Builder could have built the Wall, a network of underground tunnels is hardly a challenge.

Thirdly and least likely a brother of the NW could have led the direwolf through the Nightfort door. In that case we must wonder why.

[Equilibrium]

I'm not saying changing eye color via magic is implausible - hardly. I'm merely saying if that's what Martin was thinking, we should be able to find corroboration. I'm hesitant to go too far with an idea unless there are textual clues. Whenever Martin hides a mystery he leaves clues.

I am saying you have Mel's looks, Faceless Men skills maybe even Bolton skin thing, you can change appearance in better and more effective way then glamour. But I am not even saying that, they didn't changed looks, they were bred in, allow me to repeat myself because you didn't comment it in the first place

"Bloodmagic assisted eugenics, when they can cross species (Lengi are hybrid) why not breed in appearance traits, hell they could splice genes from those platinum purple-eyes lemurs, as you would say, fantasy not SF, it's possible because of the same reason Barratheon looks always trumps Lannister looks in B/L babies.

Even so Mel, Shierra and Serenei are too beautiful, you can extend life even youth (and that is reasonable but changing eye color isn't) but you will look like yourself, not super beautiful and imagine how much more powerful would BSE descendants be. Faceless Men do not use glamour for one, so maybe Valyrians did cornea transplants"

There are bunch of ways to do this, Mithras wrote whole thread on hybrids, and we know traits were bred in animals even 10k years before now IRL.

[Mithras]

I had not really fully contemplated the ramifications of this, even though I did think about it. The cotf knew EVERYTHING they did. Let’s look at this scenario differently, starting with the idea that the First Men adopted the 1.) religion of the cotf, including blood sacrifice to activate weirwoods and skinchanging (Warg King, Marsh King, House Crane, House Stark) 2.) ravencraft including the ability to speak with ravens and probably skin change them in all likelihood, and 3.) apparently learned advanced skills from the cotf - Brandon the Builder, for one, and the Last Hero and his broken Sword for another. CotF seem to have been involved with the founding of the Citadel, and certainly its early goings-on, which needs its own thread.

Basically, it seems like the CotF were trying to raise man out of savagery and barbarism to some extent. They were trying to teach man their ways as a way of taming him. They basically succeeded until the bloody Andals came along...

I already made that thread here :)

But I would like to import some stuff along with things I didnot post there into this thread. Because they are mostly related to the Hightowers and the Grey King.

When first glimpsed in the pages of history, the Hightowers are already kings, ruling Oldtown from Battle Isle. The first “high tower,” the chroniclers tell us, was made of wood and rose some fifty feet above the ancient fortress that was its foundation. Neither it, nor the taller timber towers that followed in the centuries to come, were meant to be a dwelling; they were purely beacon towers, built to light a path for trading ships up the fog-shrouded waters of Whispering Sound. The early Hightowers lived amidst the gloomy halls, vaults, and chambers of the strange stone below. It was only with the building of the fifth tower, the first to be made entirely of stone, that the Hightower became a seat worthy of a great house. That tower, we are told, rose two hundred feet above the harbor. Some say it was designed by Brandon the Builder, whilst others name his son, another Brandon; the king who demanded it, and paid for it, is remembered as Uthor of the High Tower.

King Uthor of the High Tower and Brandon the Builder (who was most probably a CotF-human hybrid) were buddies. This is an example of how Uthor Hightower was favored by the CotF. There is another piece of information about this Uthor.

MARIS THE MAID, the Most Fair, whose beauty was so renowned that fifty lords vied for her hand at the first tourney ever to be held in Westeros. (The victor was the Grey Giant, Argoth Stone-Skin, but Maris wed King Uthor of the High Tower before he could claim her, and Argoth spent the rest of his days raging outside the walls of Oldtown, roaring for his bride.)

King Uthor, who ordered the building of the first stone Hightower worthy of a Great House, wed the daughter of Garth Greenhand. The interesting thing is that although a giant called Argoth Stone-Skin won the tourney for the hand of Maris, Uthor Hightower somehow stole the prize from Argoth.

We know of a dispute between CotF and the giants about the dominion of a cave. In that case, Gendel and Gorne were chosen as the judges. In Uthor’s case, there is a dispute between humans and giants. So, it makes sense to think that the CotF were chosen as the judges of this case and they gave Maris’ hand to Uthor. This is another example of how Uthor Hightower was favored by the CotF.

The final example of another boon bestowed to Uthor by the CotF is his second son.

The origins of the Citadel are almost as mysterious as those of the Hightower itself. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window, so he turned to wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers. It is said the prince had no greater pleasure in life than listening to these scholars argue with one another. When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to “Peremore’s pets,” that they might establish themselves and continue teaching, learning, and questing after truth. And so they did.

Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.

Peremore the Twisted was a greenseer and he founded the Citadel. I think it is clear that he inherited the greensight genes from his mother, Maris the Maid, a daughter of Garth Greenhand. So, Maris the Maid was a very important bride both as the heiress of the greatest monarch and the carrier of magic in her blood.

This also brings me to a very bold suggestion: what if the Grey Giant, Argoth Stone-Skin, was the Grey King?

We know that Grey King and his folk were extremely large people. And the Grey King took a mermaid to wife. “Argoth spending the rest of his days raging outside the walls of Oldtown, roaring for his bride” sounds like Argoth is personified with the sea, hammering the walls of Oldtown with raging waves relentlessly. That sounds like the Grey King’s descendants from the Deep Ones raiding Oldtown and the Reach since the Dawn of Days. The attack of the ironborn is always likened to the coming of the sea.

Perhaps after being betrayed by the CotF-human alliance, the Grey King and his giants allied with the Deep Ones. We also know that the Grey King cut weirwoods to make the first longship, which is a sign of anti-CotF stance. Note that the First Hightowers were built by timber until Uthor made the first Stone Hightower. This clearly shows that Uthor threw his lots with the CotF and stopped cutting woods to build Hightowers.

The Grey King also supposedly slew Nagga, the largest sea dragon feeding on leviathans and krakens. Perhaps this Nagga was a ferocious beast that was feeding on the Deep Ones and as a part of their alliance; the Grey King helped them slay this beast.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Hooray! Words of cheer from the Grump! Unicorns and sparkling rainbows!

The more I pondered this concept, the more clear it seemed to me that Asshai must have been built when that area was a great place to live.

:lol:

[Modesty Lannister]

I already made that thread here :)

But I would like to import some stuff along with things I didnot post there into this thread. Because they are mostly related to the Hightowers and the Grey King.

When first glimpsed in the pages of history, the Hightowers are already kings, ruling Oldtown from Battle Isle. The first “high tower,” the chroniclers tell us, was made of wood and rose some fifty feet above the ancient fortress that was its foundation. Neither it, nor the taller timber towers that followed in the centuries to come, were meant to be a dwelling; they were purely beacon towers, built to light a path for trading ships up the fog-shrouded waters of Whispering Sound. The early Hightowers lived amidst the gloomy halls, vaults, and chambers of the strange stone below. It was only with the building of the fifth tower, the first to be made entirely of stone, that the Hightower became a seat worthy of a great house. That tower, we are told, rose two hundred feet above the harbor. Some say it was designed by Brandon the Builder, whilst others name his son, another Brandon; the king who demanded it, and paid for it, is remembered as Uthor of the High Tower.

King Uthor of the High Tower and Brandon the Builder (who was most probably a CotF-human hybrid) were buddies. This is an example of how Uthor Hightower was favored by the CotF. There is another piece of information about this Uthor.

MARIS THE MAID, the Most Fair, whose beauty was so renowned that fifty lords vied for her hand at the first tourney ever to be held in Westeros. (The victor was the Grey Giant, Argoth Stone-Skin, but Maris wed King Uthor of the High Tower before he could claim her, and Argoth spent the rest of his days raging outside the walls of Oldtown, roaring for his bride.)

King Uthor, who ordered the building of the first stone Hightower worthy of a Great House, wed the daughter of Garth Greenhand. The interesting thing is that although a giant called Argoth Stone-Skin won the tourney for the hand of Maris, Uthor Hightower somehow stole the prize from Argoth.

We know of a dispute between CotF and the giants about the dominion of a cave. In that case, Gendel and Gorne were chosen as the judges. In Uthor’s case, there is a dispute between humans and giants. So, it makes sense to think that the CotF were chosen as the judges of this case and they gave Maris’ hand to Uthor. This is another example of how Uthor Hightower was favored by the CotF.

The final example of another boon bestowed to Uthor by the CotF is his second son.

The origins of the Citadel are almost as mysterious as those of the Hightower itself. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window, so he turned to wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers. It is said the prince had no greater pleasure in life than listening to these scholars argue with one another. When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to “Peremore’s pets,” that they might establish themselves and continue teaching, learning, and questing after truth. And so they did.

Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers.

Peremore the Twisted was a greenseer and he founded the Citadel. I think it is clear that he inherited the greensight genes from his mother, Maris the Maid, a daughter of Garth Greenhand. So, Maris the Maid was a very important bride both as the heiress of the greatest monarch and the carrier of magic in her blood.

This also brings me to a very bold suggestion: what if the Grey Giant, Argoth Stone-Skin, was the Grey King?

We know that Grey King and his folk were extremely large people. And the Grey King took a mermaid to wife. “Argoth spending the rest of his days raging outside the walls of Oldtown, roaring for his bride” sounds like Argoth is personified with the sea, hammering the walls of Oldtown with raging waves relentlessly. That sounds like the Grey King’s descendants from the Deep Ones raiding Oldtown and the Reach since the Dawn of Days. The attack of the ironborn is always likened to the coming of the sea.

Perhaps after being betrayed by the CotF-human alliance, the Grey King and his giants allied with the Deep Ones. We also know that the Grey King cut weirwoods to make the first longship, which is a sign of anti-CotF stance. Note that the First Hightowers were built by timber until Uthor made the first Stone Hightower. This clearly shows that Uthor threw his lots with the CotF and stopped cutting woods to build Hightowers.

The Grey King also supposedly slew Nagga, the largest sea dragon feeding on leviathans and krakens. Perhaps this Nagga was a ferocious beast that was feeding on the Deep Ones and as a part of their alliance; the Grey King helped them slay this beast.

Excellent analysis, but I beg to differ when it comes to ending of this tale. The Iron Islands look like they have been separated from the rest of Westeros with hammer of waters. Nagga's bones look like a petrified weirwood tree. There are other examples of dead weirwood tress on the Iron Islands. So, CotF did sever all ties with the Ironborn and much later we see the revenge of King Harren who used blood magic mixing blood of his slaves with mortar and cut weirwood trees en masse in order to build Harrenhal next to God's Eye and the Isle of Faces where (one can argue) is (or was) the CotF capital. The size of Harrenhal is consistent with description of Grey King and his lot who, I believe, were not human, but Deep Ones. Harrenhal was built for them (Arya says it was not built for human size) in preparation of the Ironborn for their return. Also, I believe that CotF have a lot against iron. First Men did not use it and a pact with CotF was made after a while. Andals, on the other hand, were using iron, and no truce was ever reached. Iron is protecting graves of Kings of Winter. Iron is used for chains etc. Many associations lead me to believe that iron is seen by CotF by something that creates a barrier between men and nature.

[Mithras]

Excellent analysis, but I beg to differ when it comes to ending of this tale. The Iron Islands look like they have been separated from the rest of Westeros with hammer of waters. Nagga's bones look like a petrified weirwood tree. There are other examples of dead weirwood tress on the Iron Islands. So, CotF did sever all ties with the Ironborn and much later we see the revenge of King Harren who used blood magic mixing blood of his slaves with mortar and cut weirwood trees en masse in order to build Harrenhal next to God's Eye and the Isle of Faces where (one can argue) is (or was) the CotF capital. The size of Harrenhal is consistent with description of Grey King and his lot who, I believe, were not human, but Deep Ones. Harrenhal was built for them (Arya says it was not built for human size) in preparation of the Ironborn for their return. Also, I believe that CotF have a lot against iron. First Men did not use it and a pact with CotF was made after a while. Andals, on the other hand, were using iron, and no truce was ever reached. Iron is protecting graves of Kings of Winter. Iron is used for chains etc. Many associations lead me to believe that iron is seen by CotF by something that creates a barrier between men and nature.

It is possible that the Grey King and the Deep Ones were the ones to send the Hammer of the Waters to smash and seperate the land and turn it into the Iron Islands of today. I think Nagga race might be some beasts the CotF greenseers used to wear their skin and hunt the Deep Ones under the sea.

Since the Deep Ones have access to anywhere the waves reach through the seas, they might learn the secrets of ironworking and shipbuidling from distant civilizations like the Rhoynar before the First Men did. Perhaps they also taught the ironborn to work iron and build longships much before the First Men reached that level.

I think both the CotF and the Deep Ones realized that the Andals were threat to all of them and they made common cause against the Andals. Where the Andals were stopped (the Neck) there is the genetical heritage of both the CotF and the squishers (a race of the Deep Ones).

[LmL]

The First Men did have iron, but not steel. The Others are said to hate iron by Old Nan as she tells the story of the LN. The fact that the Kings of winter have iron swords, as you mentioned, is another clue. Ygritte talks about the first kings coming with iron and fire in their hands and throwing up the wall. You have to remember that iron and steel are very, very different. The sandals had steel, much lighter and sharper and stronger. That's why they cleaned house. Iron armor isn't very practical, but steel armor is.

None of this negates your potential identification of iron and the cotf's feelings about it, just wanted to be accurate.

[Modesty Lannister]

It is possible that the Grey King and the Deep Ones were the ones to send the Hammer of the Waters to smash and seperate the land and turn it into the Iron Islands of today. I think Nagga race might be some beasts the CotF greenseers used to wear their skin and hunt the Deep Ones under the sea.

Since the Deep Ones have access to anywhere the waves reach through the seas, they might learn the secrets of ironworking and shipbuidling from distant civilizations like the Rhoynar before the First Men did. Perhaps they also taught the ironborn to work iron and build longships much before the First Men reached that level.

I think both the CotF and the Deep Ones realized that the Andals were threat to all of them and they made common cause against the Andals. Where the Andals were stopped (the Neck) there is the genetical heritage of both the CotF and the squishers (a race of the Deep Ones).

I tend to disagree with who severed ties with whom. Hammer of the waters is essentially an earthquake of large proportions. And CotF command earth magic. I also think the dispute between the Ironborn and CotF as your example of Hightowers shows, predates arrival of the Andals by maybe thousands of years. Furthermore, I do not see any possibility of any alliance between CotF and the Deep Ones in any point in history.

[Modesty Lannister]

The First Men did have iron, but not steel. The Others are said to hate iron by Old Nan as she tells the story of the LN. The fact that the Kings of winter have iron swords, as you mentioned, is another clue. Ygritte talks about the first kings coming with iron and fire in their hands and throwing up the wall. You have to remember that iron and steel are very, very different. The sandals had steel, much lighter and sharper and stronger. That's why they cleaned house. Iron armor isn't very practical, but steel armor is.

None of this negates your potential identification of iron and the cotf's feelings about it, just wanted to be accurate.

For the precise reason of accuracy, this is from wiki of ice and fire on the First Men:

The men came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses.

This is from wiki of ice and fire entry on Andals.

The Andals used iron, while the First Men used bronze.

I can find you more quotes if you like. The First Men did not use iron. Andals introduced it.

[Mithras]

“My lords of Stark,” the girl said. “The years have passed in their hundreds and their thousands since my folk first swore their fealty to the King in the North. My lord father has sent us here to say the words again, for all our people.”

She is looking at me, Bran realized. He had to make some answer. “My brother Robb is fighting in the south,” he said, “but you can say your words to me, if you like.”

“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater,” they said together. “Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.”

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.

Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.

1. Howland sent his kids to repeat the oaths they swore to King Rickard Stark when he defeated the Marsh King, married his daughter and joined the Neck to his domains. This is an oath coming back from thousands of years ago.

2. Since Bran was not taught how to respond to this oath, neither Luwin nor anyone else ever heard this oath.

3. Obviously, this oath and its importance is among the things forgotten in Winterfell but still remembered at the Neck.

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer’s Winter’s Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself , and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air.

The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak.

South of the Neck, the riverfolk whose lands adjoin their own say that the crannogmen breathe water, have webbed hands and feet like frogs, and use poisons on their frog spears and their arrows.

On the Isle of Toads can be found an ancient idol, a greasy black stone crudely carved into the semblance of a gigantic toad of malignant aspect, some forty feet high. The people of this isle are believed by some to be descended from those who carved the Toad Stone, for there is an unpleasant fishlike aspect to their faces, and many have webbed hands and feet. If so, they are the sole surviving remnant of this forgotten race.

It is clear that the CotF are those who sing the song of earth. So, who could be those who sing the song of water/sea? I think they were the Deep Ones.

I think the crannogmen have not only CotF ancestry but also squisher ancestry. Both the squishers and the crannogmen are said to have webbed feet-hands and green teeth. At least some of the crannogmen should be like this.

So, "I swear it by earth and water" refers to these two inhumane races.

In return, "I swear it by bronze and iron" should refer to two tribes or even races of humans. Obviously, bronze is for the First Men. So, for whom is the iron? I think they were the ironborn humans who were themselves descendants of the Grey King and the Deep Ones.

Whatever the case, Ice and Fire seems like a unifying Pact that binds all the races.

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command . To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant’s Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

It appears that a human hero wed a CotF and allied with merlings and giants.

[LmL]

It is possible that the Grey King and the Deep Ones were the ones to send the Hammer of the Waters to smash and seperate the land and turn it into the Iron Islands of today. I think Nagga race might be some beasts the CotF greenseers used to wear their skin and hunt the Deep Ones under the sea.

Since the Deep Ones have access to anywhere the waves reach through the seas, they might learn the secrets of ironworking and shipbuidling from distant civilizations like the Rhoynar before the First Men did. Perhaps they also taught the ironborn to work iron and build longships much before the First Men reached that level.

I think both the CotF and the Deep Ones realized that the Andals were threat to all of them and they made common cause against the Andals. Where the Andals were stopped (the Neck) there is the genetical heritage of both the CotF and the squishers (a race of the Deep Ones).

The Andals really fuck everything up. They're basically like Christianized Vikings. They certainly aren't much better than Ironborn, they were violent conquerors don of rape and brutality, but cloaked in righteousness. I really don't think it's a coincidence that the Bloodstone Emperor committed seven abominations and the people seven deadly sins. Seven is an evil number on Planetos, because we used to have eight wanderers, eight gods, when things were balanced, before the Bloodstone Emperor pulled down the fire moon god.

As for the Grey King. I am connecting him and the Ironborn to the BSE more and more. Stealing fire from the storm god is a lot like pulling down the fire moon from heaven. Again, the sea dragon slew while islands in her wroth. This is a dead giveaway we are taking about astronomy and nature phenomena. Nature is magical, of course, but what kind of dragon slays islands? Dragons are meteors, so the answer is obvious. The sea dragon is a meteor that lands in or near enough to the water to create tsunamis.

Slaying the sea dragon probably means mastering it, since the Grey King's m.o. is to steal the weapons of his enemy and make them useful for himself. He made a hall from the "Nagga's ribs," stole fire for himself to warm his halls, and made ships from the demon tree. Every time, he steals a weapon and makes use of them. So, how do you make use of a sea dragon if a sea dragon is a fallen meteorite? Well, the Grey King comes from the drowned god's watery halls, underwater. When the meteor hit, the water swallowed it up. That's one sort of victory. The resulting tsunami could be seen as the sea invading the land, something like what Mithras suggests regarding Argoth Stoneskin. Something like the supposed hammer that flooded the neck. Something like Durran Godsgrief battling the storm after stealing a goddess from the heavens

- this is all the same story. Every time you see a goddess being stolen from heaven, fire being stolen from heaven - these are the flaming pieces of destroyed moon they are talking about. The Ironborn are always talking about carrying a burning brand from the sea (needs to pull the quote), and the Grey King possessing fire. Where did the Grey King get his fire? From the heavens, when it came streaking down. The storm God is the God of the air, where lightning strikes from. So the flaming meteor would indeed be seen as coming from the Storm God, from the sky, and if set trees on fire somehow, then we have our explanation for the dead weirwoods - their deaths are related to this meteor strike.

Who is the Drowned God? Well, he may actually be the dead goddess herself. The only God that drowned is the one that fell from heaven into the sea. The "sea-star," if you will. I think the drowned God is either this fallen goddes or was seen as pulling her down because she fell into the sea, where he is presumed to live. This may also be the origin of the marrying a mermaid story. Elenei seems like a mermaid, being the daughter of wind and sea, and she is a goddess come from heaven. Put these all together and you get the Grey King married to this drowned fire goddess. Again, the sea dragon motif, a drowned fire goddess.

Even the hubris of the Grey King, taunting the Storm God, sounds like the Morningstar deity trying to outshine God the most high and failing. He also seems afflicted with the Barrow King curse, kill his skin turning grey are corpse like over time.

[Modesty Lannister]

“My lords of Stark,” the girl said. “The years have passed in their hundreds and their thousands since my folk first swore their fealty to the King in the North. My lord father has sent us here to say the words again, for all our people.”

She is looking at me, Bran realized. He had to make some answer. “My brother Robb is fighting in the south,” he said, “but you can say your words to me, if you like.”

“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater,” they said together. “Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.”

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.

Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.

1. Howland sent his kids to repeat the oaths they swore to King Rickard Stark when he defeated the Marsh King, married his daughter and joined the Neck to his domains. This is an oath coming back from thousands of years ago.

2. Since Bran was not taught how to respond to this oath, neither Luwin nor anyone else ever heard this oath.

3. Obviously, this oath and its importance is among the things forgotten in Winterfell but still remembered at the Neck.

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer’s Winter’s Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself , and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air.

The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak.

South of the Neck, the riverfolk whose lands adjoin their own say that the crannogmen breathe water, have webbed hands and feet like frogs, and use poisons on their frog spears and their arrows.

On the Isle of Toads can be found an ancient idol, a greasy black stone crudely carved into the semblance of a gigantic toad of malignant aspect, some forty feet high. The people of this isle are believed by some to be descended from those who carved the Toad Stone, for there is an unpleasant fishlike aspect to their faces, and many have webbed hands and feet. If so, they are the sole surviving remnant of this forgotten race.

It is clear that the CotF are those who sing the song of earth. So, who could be those who sing the song of water/sea? I think they were the Deep Ones.

I think the crannogmen have not only CotF ancestry but also squisher ancestry. Both the squishers and the crannogmen are said to have webbed feet-hands and green teeth. At least some of the crannogmen should be like this.

So, "I swear it by earth and water" refers to these two inhumane races.

In return, "I swear it by bronze and iron" should refer to two tribes or even races of humans. Obviously, bronze is for the First Men. So, for whom is the iron? I think they were the ironborn humans who were themselves descendants of the Grey King and the Deep Ones.

Whatever the case, Ice and Fire seems like a unifying Pact that binds all the races.

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command . To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant’s Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

It appears that a human hero wed a CotF and allied with merlings and giants.

You and I differ in interpretation of this. When CotF raised hammer of the waters, they flooded the Neck and separately flooded the arm of Dorne creating Stepstones. So, they used earth magic and the result was a flood. That is quite to be expected. If you create a powerful earthquake and you manage to control it somehow, the earth moves and water comes flooding in.

The text does not support any "water magic" of "water magic hammer of the waters" that supposedly Deep Ones could perform. And why should it? Hammer of the waters as aspect of earth magic (earth slamming as a hammer onto the waters) is quite enough to explain what happened.

Also, talking about iron, in the book Tyrion was reading on his way to the Wall, it is said that dragon bones are full of iron. CotF used dragon glass as their main weapon. My hunch is that CotF were not so much against iron per se as they were for the monopoly of the use of iron. The First Men did not use it, hence the pact. Andals used it, the Ironborn were mining it. Hence, no truce.

As for the Griffin king, you are treating him as human. I wouldn't be 100% sure of that.

[LmL]

Argoth, well Argoth is actually Argus, the guardian of Io, a maid which Zeus desired and tried to hide from Hera by transforming Io into a heifer and covering the earth with clouds to hide her. Hera was not fooled and asked for the heifer as a gift, which Zeus could not refuse. Hera tied her to a tree (things tied to trees mean things in orbit) and set Argus, the giant with a hundred eyes who never sleeps, to guard her. Zeus sent Hermes (the messenger, whose role is played by the comet here even though Hermes is Mercury or course) to kill Argus, which he did. Io was then free to rom about and cause mischief. She runs into promethium actually, still bound, and he tells her a great hero will come from her line. That ends up being Hercules, he of the 12 labors (zodiac reference) who set Promethius free eventually.

So, thanks for spoiling my future essay, but this Io and Argus thing is important. The hundred eyes should of course grab your attention - that's been changed to 1,000 eyes in ASOIAF. So, io is the name for a moon of Jupiter - it's a molten fire moon. When I figured out that the destroyed moon must have been fire aspected, I went looking for molten fire moons and Io popped up first. So let's fit the story of Io with my astronomy scenario.

Io is the fire moon, that's clear. She's guarded by a many eyed giant, Argus. Argoth "stone skin" is a giant as well - instead of guarding Io chained to a tree, he's raging for his bride trapped in a tower. It's the same image, with different details. So if Io is the fire moon, how is a stone skin, many eyes giant guarding her? Well, stone skin is the clue. Argus in this case is the stone crust of the moon, which is entirely molten underneath - the stone skin. When the moon exploded, the solid pieces of rock in the crust were violently blown away from the core - the thousand eyes is the METEOR SHOWER. There are many textual corroboration equating the many eyes with a meteor shower, which I'm saving for my essay, so you'll have to take my word for now. That's it though - the stone skin guarding the moon fire was blown off, creating the meteor shower which was remembered as the origin of dragons. The surface rock of Io is basalt, as Modesty Lannister will be tickled to learn. All three impacts probably came from the basalt surface rock, as the magma would be blown out into space, with some cooling in the atmosphere and making the tektites I have referred to - little vitrified pieces of obsidian raining down from the sky, just like in the Doom.

Io's line does indeed produce a hero, as Daenerys is heavily associated symbolically with the fire moon, as both are mothers of dragons. As Modesty mentioned, Ishtar / Astarte symbolism has been used for Dany and this moon both. The fire moon is also Nissa Nissa, and of course Durran and I have identified as her as the likely ancestor of Daenerys and possibly all the purple eyed folks, making this Io prophecy even more true.

The Last Hero is certainly easy to match with Hercules, since the zodiac signs are all dead heroes, as the LH's companions were. The LH could definitely be the child of the BSE, the Amethyst E, or both.

As for freeing Promethius, remember that Promethius stole fire from the gods, identifying him with the Grey King. The Grey King seems empowered by slaying the sea dragon and stealing fire, so this fits. Io did set him free, from the sea in this case. Also, Io's descendent, Daenerys, is about to run into the descendent of the Grey King, so that should be interesting.

Returning this to the Grey King, he has that "leal elder brother" from whom the Goodbrothers of Old Wyck descend, whereas every other Ironborn is descended from the Grey King. Who is Promethius elder brother? His very loyal brother? Atlas, who stands at the far west of the known world and holds up the heavens. Is this a reference the Iron Islands being the westernmost point, or specifically to the Lonely Light and the skinchanger Farwynds? The Goodbrothers themselves live at a castle called the "Hammerhorn," which seems very interesting.

I could keep going but I don't want to write my whole essay right now. Hope you guys found that interesting. Mithras, in light of your connection between Argoth stone skin and the Grey King, I'm curious what you think of this.

[LmL]

I tend to disagree with who severed ties with whom. Hammer of the waters is essentially an earthquake of large proportions. And CotF command earth magic. I also think the dispute between the Ironborn and CotF as your example of Hightowers shows, predates arrival of the Andals by maybe thousands of years. Furthermore, I do not see any possibility of any alliance between CotF and the Deep Ones in any point in history.

I agree no alliance between Deep Ones and cotf.