Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[LmL]

What I am not sure of is whether Martin is intending us to think about genetics this hard. Are we supposed to think of Dany as half Blackwood, and as being part Dayne? He's certainly drawn a lot of attention to bloodlines, referring to Targaryen heritage in other families that came in 3 generations ago, so it seems valid.

[LmL]

Ive wondered the same thing for a while. Your guess is as good as mine, but I have wondered about something located underneath it maybe? There are tunnels and greenseers attached to many if not all of these trees. Of course the greenseer attached to this tree would most certainly be dead. Weirwood trees are often used for gravesites as well so this could also be a possibility.

From the wiki

Raventree is located in Blackwood Vale north of Riverrun and the Red Fork. Some Blackwoods are buried in the village Cairns, while others are buried beneath the dead weirwood of Raventree.

There was also some inconsistency in TWOIAF which I found odd stating that the Blackwoods were "driven from the north" by the Kings of Winter so Raventree would have been established some time after the Long Night (if the timeline and history of the Stark Kings is accurate).

BUT TWOIAF also states the Blackwoods once ruled the Riverlands as Kings during the Age of Heroes. So unless their writ included the Riverlands, the Neck and extended all the way to the Wolfswood they couldn't have ruled both places at one time.

There doesn't seem to be a way to unify those ideas. Its one or the other. I wonder if this has come up in the threads tracking errors in TWOIAF.

[Modesty Lannister]

Ive wondered the same thing for a while. Your guess is as good as mine, but I have wondered about something located underneath it maybe? There are tunnels and greenseers attached to many if not all of these trees. Of course the greenseer attached to this tree would most certainly be dead. Weirwood trees are often used for gravesites as well so this could also be a possibility.

From the wiki

Raventree is located in Blackwood Vale north of Riverrun and the Red Fork. Some Blackwoods are buried in the village Cairns, while others are buried beneath the dead weirwood of Raventree.

There was also some inconsistency in TWOIAF which I found odd stating that the Blackwoods were "driven from the north" by the Kings of Winter so Raventree would have been established some time after the Long Night (if the timeline and history of the Stark Kings is accurate).

BUT TWOIAF also states the Blackwoods once ruled the Riverlands as Kings during the Age of Heroes. So unless their writ included the Riverlands, the Neck and extended all the way to the Wolfswood they couldn't have ruled both places at one time.

There are just too many Blackwood connections to be ignored. Bloodraven is half Blackwood. Two Blackwoods married Stark lords. Blackwoods were expelled (!?) from the north, while Manderies were expelled from the Reach. Bloodraven was expelled from 7 kingdoms by Egg (or was he?) Egg married a Blackwood who was also accused of being a witch. Blackwoods are at odds with Brackens. A lady from the Vale gets abducted by mountain clans on her way to wed a Bracken (see my thread about Timmet). Dead weirwood tree that is somehow alive. BR turning into a greenseer. And, most importantly, the village called Cairns. The only other mention of cairns is ToJ, which was allegedly torn down so that the cairns can be made. And yes, Tytos (note the name) Blackwood with his cloak made of raven feathers. I am putting on my thinking cap big time.

[LmL]

Ditto. I find the Blackwoods so interesting. If they used be in the North, in the wolfswood, I wonder about this idea of the crypts of Winterfell opening into the wood, connecting to larger underground caverns. I don't think Gorne's way goes to Winterfell, but who knows.

A good Blackwood question is this: what magic is Bloodraven using? He dies a glamour as Maynard Plumm with a ruby (iirc) and that's like Mel's magic. But he's obviously a greenseer, cotf magic. He may be able to use multiple kinds of magic. It raises the question of what magical legacy Jon will tap into in the future.

I wonder, perhaps the Blackwoods, with all their raven imagery... They seem to have the greenseer gene, what animal do they tend to bond with? House crane bonds with cranes, house Blackmont with Vultures, Starks with wolves - Blackwoods with ravens? Is this connected to the cotf teaching the FM how to "send messages via raven," which may actually have been skinchanging at first?

[J. Stargaryen]

Ditto. I find the Blackwoods so interesting. If they used be in the North, in the wolfswood, I wonder about this idea of the crypts of Winterfell opening into the wood, connecting to larger underground caverns. I don't think Gorne's way goes to Winterfell, but who knows.

A good Blackwood question is this: what magic is Bloodraven using? He dies a glamour as Maynard Plumm with a ruby (iirc) and that's like Mel's magic. But he's obviously a greenseer, cotf magic. He may be able to use multiple kinds of magic. It raises the question of what magical legacy Jon will tap into in the future.

I wonder, perhaps the Blackwoods, with all their raven imagery... They seem to have the greenseer gene, what animal do they tend to bond with? House crane bonds with cranes, house Blackmont with Vultures, Starks with wolves - Blackwoods with ravens? Is this connected to the cotf teaching the FM how to "send messages via raven," which may actually have been skinchanging at first?

It was a moonstone brooch.

“Distantly," confessed Ser Maynard, a tall, thin, stoop-shouldered man with long straight flaxen hair, "though I doubt that His Lordship would admit to it. One might say that he is of the sweet Plumms, whilst I am of the sour." Plumm's cloak was as purple as name, though frayed about the edges and badly dyed. A moonstone brooch big as a hen's egg fastened it at the shoulder. Elsewise he wore dun-colored roughspun and stained brown leather. - TMK

[LmL]

That actually makes more sense, thanks J Stargaryen. Bloodraven is tied to the meteor shower and the gods eye eclipse, symbolically. The "thousand eyes and one" I believe to be a metaphor for the fire moon transit across the sun (the "God's Eye" image, black pupil on red sun) as the one eye, and the thousand thousand dragons pouring forth from the moon are the thousand eyes. The meteor shower is related as eyes in a couple of places (don't want to spoil my next essay).

Thus a moonstone is appropriate. Also, there's a moonstone on the pommel of the sword "Nightfall," a Valyrian steel sword owned by House Harlaw. Nightfall, moonstone, there's a message here.

In fact, J Stargaryen, take a good look at the wiki page for Valyrian steel. Look at the names of the swords. Almost every one refers to the comet-destroying-moon-and-causing-long-night scenario I hypothesized.

[LmL]

Does this imply moonstones can be used for magic? Illusions? That has pretty much been the strict purview of rubies thus far. Although frankly I'm glad BR wasn't using slimy Melissandre shadow fire magic. I like BR too much. But what was he doing, conjuring an illusion with a moonstone? Or his own power?

[Lenabot]

This is maybe a little off-topic, but the other threads have since gone quiet, and I've been curious about this mystery for a while.

I generally support the idea of a second moon's destruction causing the Long Night.

However, even though I like the idea, there's one big glaring gap in the theory. The destruction of a second moon is a global event -- everyone would have seen it. Just like how numerous peoples in the real world have a deluge myth. Even though the mythical "reasons" for the deluge vary, it's always a destructive flood. Not some fancy metaphor for a flood. An actual, physical flood.

The same "universal" myth doesn't apply to the second moon, even though it would have been more universally seen than a big flood. The only known myth explicitly mentioning a "cracked moon" originates in Qarth / the ancient Qaathi people. The myth's not even associated with the Long Night. Only the birth of dragons.

I know you side with the myth of Azor Ahai being a metaphorical reference for the destruction of the moon -- but that's a pretty extreme metaphor for something that logically would have been portrayed in a clear fashion, like the deluge myths.

So, how do we account for the lack of a universal myth?

[LmL]

Hey, Lenabot, so glad you asked. I mentioned this in my essay but only briefly. Only one half of the planet would have been facing the comet-moon collision : the Essos half. That's why they all having flaming sword guy myths over there - Hyrkoon, Nefer, Yi Ti, Asshai.

Meanwhile, over in Westeros, it's very conspicuous that they have no story to explain the cause of the Long Night. Not one. All their stories are about dealing with it and ending it, but no cause.

The Long Night story is of course spread all around the world, because the whole world dealt with it. But only the east saw the explosion happen.

The easterners remember the cause of the Long Night as the cure, mistakenly. This means that the east has no story for the cure of the Long Night, apart from the little story about the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail. This means they don't really know why or how it ended.

I believe this is because the ending of the Long Night was brought about by magical acts which took place in Westeros, having to do with the Last Hero, COTF, and probably a lot of sacrifice (Garth is likely involved here).

The fire moon and ice moon are either sources or magic or heavily tied to such - so, the cause of the Long Night was an "astronomical event," but one with huge magical consequences, as the two are linked. Thus, even though the cause started in the heavens and manifested on earth, the solution did the opposite, starting on earth and manifesting in the sky. It's a two way relationship, as I set out in the first paragraph of the first essay. This way, the characters in the story have the power to effect nature and the heavens - much more interesting for a fantasy story than people simply being at the mercy of magic comets with no way to affect the outcome. :)

Edit: of course all of this is "in theory." I'm not claiming that my theory is fact, of course.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

This is maybe a little off-topic, but the other threads have since gone quiet, and I've been curious about this mystery for a while.

I generally support the idea of a second moon's destruction causing the Long Night.

However, even though I like the idea, there's one big glaring gap in the theory. The destruction of a second moon is a global event -- everyone would have seen it. Just like how numerous peoples in the real world have a deluge myth. Even though the mythical "reasons" for the deluge vary, it's always a destructive flood. Not some fancy metaphor for a flood. An actual, physical flood.

The same "universal" myth doesn't apply to the second moon, even though it would have been more universally seen than a big flood. The only known myth explicitly mentioning a "cracked moon" originates in Qarth / the ancient Qaathi people. The myth's not even associated with the Long Night. Only the birth of dragons.

I know you side with the myth of Azor Ahai being a metaphorical reference for the destruction of the moon -- but that's a pretty extreme metaphor for something that logically would have been portrayed in a clear fashion, like the deluge myths.

So, how do we account for the lack of a universal myth?

Ancient peoples probably understood the flood better and could relate/describe what was happening as flooding is not uncommon. Celestial events are rare and historically ancient peoples have used different descriptions and rationale for what would happen to celestial bodies. Most peoples of that era such as the Greek, Romans, Egyptians thought the moon and sun represented aspects of the Gods with descriptors such as lions, charriots, unicorns etc. We know now the sun is a ginormous ball of hydrogen the Earth revolves around, and the moon a huge rock that revolves around our planet. 10,000 years ago our ancient ancestors would have described and rationalized such a celestial event much, much differently.

[LmL]

If you look at some of the things ancient people's came up with to explain celestial events, regular or irregular, a fire warrior stabbing his wife to make a burning sword is pretty mundane. The Vedic Indians came up with a metaphor of Naga serpent people playing cosmic tug of war with a world tree to explain the turning of the celestial axis. The Aztecs thought an eclipse meant star-demons were attacking the sun, and would come down to eat people. Comets as dragons are standard fare, as I covered in part one, as are planets as gods and the moon as the wife of the sun.

[J. Stargaryen]

Does this imply moonstones can be used for magic? Illusions? That has pretty much been the strict purview of rubies thus far. Although frankly I'm glad BR wasn't using slimy Melissandre shadow fire magic. I like BR too much. But what was he doing, conjuring an illusion with a moonstone? Or his own power?

I think magic is magic, and gemstones are either a conduit for that, or a distraction of that. Something along those lines anyway.

[LmL]

I think magic is magic, and gemstones are either a conduit for that, or a distraction of that. Something along those lines anyway.

Yes, but Mel seems pretty stick on rubies, and they are the only gem associated with glamours that I recall, apart from this example with BR and the moonstone. Im not getting the impression all gemstones / rocks / minerals are magical (although maybe that's it), but rather only a couple: rubies, greasy black stone, moon rock (if that's something other than the greasy stone), obsidian, milkglass, and maybe moonstone?

[LmL]

Moonstone's appearance comes from the same effect as that which gives milkglass it's appearance, as we were discussing on Voice of the First Men's heirarchy of Others thread.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes, but Mel seems pretty stick on rubies, and they are the only gem associated with glamours that I recall, apart from this example with BR and the moonstone. Im not getting the impression all gemstones / rocks / minerals are magical (although maybe that's it), but rather only a couple: rubies, greasy black stone, moon rock (if that's something other than the greasy stone), obsidian, milkglass, and maybe moonstone?

Mel likes rubies because she's a red priestess.

[LmL]

Mel likes rubies because she's a red priestess.

Is it only Mel using rubies for illusions?

[J. Stargaryen]

Is it only Mel using rubies for illusions?

As far as we know; fLightbringer and Mance, as well as herself, probably. Though rubies are heavily linked to House Targaryen directly, or indirectly through fire and blood similes and metaphors: e.g., rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight; rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, etc. Both of those are descriptions of Rhaegar's rubies, btw.

[Mychel_Redfort]

The Long Night story is of course spread all around the world, because the whole world dealt with it. But only the east saw the explosion happen.

Let's suppose the sky was clouded just after the fall of the meteors. People in Westeros wouldn't have noticed at once that the fire moon was destroyed. But they would have at the end of the Long Night. And nobody would have thought the disappearance of the second moon what was caused the Long Night ?

[LmL]

Let's suppose the sky was clouded just after the fall of the meteors. People in Westeros wouldn't have noticed at once that the fire moon was destroyed. But they would have at the end of the Long Night. And nobody would have thought the disappearance of the second moon what was caused the Long Night ?

That's a good point, I don't have a good answer there. My guess is that George simply didn't want to give away the mystery of this formerly existent moon. I'm sure it existed, the evidence seems overwhelming to me, but there are no direct second moon references in Westeros. I have found many allusions to a god falling from heaven in Westeros, but not a specific second moon reference.

Durran married a daughter of the gods, causing her to become mortal (and thus eventually die). This event is associated with hellacious storms, a tsunami IMO from the shattering of the Arm of Dorne by meteor.

The Grey King stole fire from the storm God, slew the sea dragon which drowned islands, and took a mermaid to wife. I've already said I think the sea dragon is a meteor (dragon) that lands in the sea or causes tsunamis (drowning islands). The lighting striking a tree could also be a reference to this same event. As for the mermaid, Elenei herself has many mermaid connections, and so his marrying of the mermaid could be a reference for taking the power of the goddess meteor which drowned. The drowned God himself might be their interpretation of the drowned moon goddess. Different cultures perceive moons, the sun, and planets as one sex or the other.

I also believe the Hammer of the waters was a memory of this same celestial event and the ensuing fallout.

[Lenabot]

Ancient peoples probably understood the flood better and could relate/describe what was happening as flooding is not uncommon. Celestial events are rare and historically ancient peoples have used different descriptions and rationale for what would happen to celestial bodies. Most peoples of that era such as the Greek, Romans, Egyptians thought the moon and sun represented aspects of the Gods with descriptors such as lions, charriots, unicorns etc. We know now the sun is a ginormous ball of hydrogen the Earth revolves around, and the moon a huge rock that revolves around our planet. 10,000 years ago our ancient ancestors would have described and rationalized such a celestial event much, much differently.

(and at LmL, I suppose)

Yeah, I'm very familiar with world mythology. But all those myth explain things that aren't readily obvious -- lunar tides, the composition of natural satellites, seasons changing, the nature of the sun, "bleeding stars" that disappear for years and "mysteriously" return for no apparent reason.

A moon breaking apart into millions of pieces is a little more obvious. And more easily understood. People wouldn't understand the forces behind it, but they'd understand enough to go "holy shit the moon broke." Moon there, moon shatter, moon gone. Even primitive peoples with no grasp of science are smart enough to grasp that.

More specifically @LmL:

As for "it was only witnessed on one half of Planetos," that's a pretty huge stretch. For starters, it'd take a long while for the moon to fully break up into a big cloud of debris -- certainly more than a standard nighttime period. You'd also be able to see the debris raining down in Westeros if it were a moon as large as ours.

And the First Men / Children would have surely noticed the suspicious disappearance of the second moon once the Long Night ended -- yet they make no mention of it. The Long Night only lasted a generation (if not less). Not enough time for a whole society to forget that there was a second moon.

And even then, why only Qarth? There are ton of other Essosi civilizations who would have theoretically "seen" it.

Maybe it depends on how large you presume the second moon was. If it were the size of Deimos or Phobos (Mars' two moons) -- that is to say, more like big asteroids rather than a large moon -- then we might be able to work with something. If one of those moons hit the surface -- rather than simply breaking up in the atmosphere -- you'd get an impact winter. Ash and dust and debris rising up into the atmosphere and blocking out part of the sun's rays, potentially triggering an extinction event. Like the Yucatan ('dinosaur killer') asteroid impact.

It can also create unique variants of minerals and gems. Such as "shocked quartz."

So, maybe, if it were a moon that size. Although you'd think more people would have noticed its absence, small moon or not.