Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[LmL]

Lastly, Mychel, it's not implausible for the survivors of a nuclear winter to eventually forget the existence of a second moon. Its likely that most people died during the LN. The survivors would have been struggling to survive, and would have lost much of their history and culture. The next few generations would have been a total reset of civilization, and after a while the old stories of a second moon, wherever they existed, would have seemed ridiculous. I believe the more subtle echoes exist, like the stories I mentioned above as well as the "God's Eye" monicker, but nobody remembers the formerly existent second moon. The story of it is only found with the Qarthine tale - most people have forgotten about it.

[J. Stargaryen]

I don't know if it's been mentioned here or not, but one thing that might be worth looking into is the possibility that sea dragon has to do with Daenerys. After all, a Targaryen in the Dothraki sea could easily be described as a sea dragon, figuratively speaking.

[LmL]

Lenabot, I'm definitely proposing a smaller moon. It makes the pseudo-science work better all the way around. It's the "Dark Sister," a smaller and more slender version of its twin.

As for how long the explosion would take, I don't really know the science on that. And we can't know how far George went with scientific accuracy. The stories of the sword guy are all in the east, and that's where the heart of shadow is and Azor Ahai and Asshai and the Bloodstone Emperor, etc. The most rational explanation for this was that whatever story is behind this myth, it happened over there.

As for the myth, remember that this was 10,000 years ago. We hardly have any myth that we know is from that long ago, and the oldest myths we do have are so strange and incomprehensible (Vedic legends of flying ships fighting laser battles spring to mind) that it's very hard to know what they are talking about. Those same Vedic Indians came up with the Divas playing tug of war with the naga serpent to explain the turning of the celestial axis, and even the flood stories have varying stories about their cause.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

That actually makes more sense, thanks J Stargaryen. Bloodraven is tied to the meteor shower and the gods eye eclipse, symbolically. The "thousand eyes and one" I believe to be a metaphor for the fire moon transit across the sun (the "God's Eye" image, black pupil on red sun) as the one eye, and the thousand thousand dragons pouring forth from the moon are the thousand eyes. The meteor shower is related as eyes in a couple of places (don't want to spoil my next essay).

Thus a moonstone is appropriate. Also, there's a moonstone on the pommel of the sword "Nightfall," a Valyrian steel sword owned by House Harlaw. Nightfall, moonstone, there's a message here.

In fact, J Stargaryen, take a good look at the wiki page for Valyrian steel. Look at the names of the swords. Almost every one refers to the comet-destroying-moon-and-causing-long-night scenario I hypothesized.

Off topic at bit but, since you mentioned Nightfall, I wanted to point out something bizarre about its ownership. Dalton Greyjoy got the sword off of a "dead corsair" some time before the Dance of Dragons but now for some reason the sword has strangely come into the possession of the Harlaw's. This seems severely odd due to the value of such a sword and the fact that the Greyjoys have been ruling the iron islands the whole time. Why would they allow one of their "lesser houses" to take possession of their Valyrian Steel Sword? Even the Lannisters couldn't get their hands on one of these so how exactly did the Harlaws go about obtaining Nightfall from their ruling house?

[Mychel_Redfort]

Lastly, Mychel, it's not implausible for the survivors of a nuclear winter to eventually forget the existence of a second moon. Its likely that most people died during the LN. The survivors would have been struggling to survive, and would have lost much of their history and culture. The next few generations would have been a total reset of civilization, and after a while the old stories of a second moon, wherever they existed, would have seemed ridiculous. I believe the more subtle echoes exist, like the stories I mentioned above as well as the "God's Eye" monicker, but nobody remembers the formerly existent second moon. The story of it is only found with the Qarthine tale - most people have forgotten about it.

Well, it's not totally satisfactory but yes, it could be something like that. I hear Lenabot's arguments, but we are before writing's invention, with only oral traditions, and with the remnants of a population decimated by the "nuclear winter." Maybe also the disappearance of the second moon was connected to the seasons becoming irregular at the same time.

[LmL]

Let's also consider the possibility that a few do know about the second moon, but it's closely guarded secret knowledge. I'm thinking of the Citadel, perhaps, since they may go all the way back to just after the LN, obviously the Church of Starry Wisdom, who may in turn have something to do with the Faith of the Seven. The fingerprints of the CoSW are all over the Faith ot7, and I'm still working on this angle, but it may be occurring.

As we discussed in the Bloodstone Compendium thread, I believe the riddle of the Sphinx refers to the formerly existent second moon, the original three headed dragon. It's a big secret as far as backstory mysteries go in ASOAIF; George is clearly lying clues all over the place but to have more than a few people talking about a second moon would blow the cover.

One last thing: the idea of invisibility or being unseen has come up a few times when researching myth that George seems to have drawn in to make this second fire moon. Ishtar has this connotation, I forget where else but I will find it. It's possible this moon was hard to see - dark and far away. It's even possible part of it still exists and just can't be seen by the naked eye. I don't think so but I shall throw it out there as it seems potentially relevant.

[Lenabot]

If it were a smaller moon, then more pieces fit together -- an impact event would occur in less than an hour. I doubt humans would notice an asteroid-size moon approaching with their naked eye. At least not until it hit the atmosphere, and by then it would take less than an hour to hit the ground.

The impact would only be seen by one region. The rest of the world would have no idea why there's ash and dust clouding the sky. So you're looking at an impact location somewhere in Essos. It could also explain why those central Essosi seas (by Hyrkoon) dried up.

The moon shattering while still in orbit is less likely. But an impact fits the Long Night.

Now I just have to figure out whether it was caused by The BSE, or if it was an act of hostility against him (by way of the Others/"Great Other")!

[LmL]

Lenabot, have you read all three of my Astronomy of Planetos series? Can't blame you if you haven't, they're long, but I just want to know if you have read all of my arguments about this. I am thinking you may not have read the first one from a couple of your questions.

[LmL]

Off topic at bit but, since you mentioned Nightfall, I wanted to point out something bizarre about its ownership. Dalton Greyjoy got the sword off of a "dead corsair" some time before the Dance of Dragons but now for some reason the sword has strangely come into the possession of the Harlaw's. This seems severely odd due to the value of such a sword and the fact that the Greyjoys have been ruling the iron islands the whole time. Why would they allow one of their "lesser houses" to take possession of their Valyrian Steel Sword? Even the Lannisters couldn't get their hands on one of these so how exactly did the Harlaws go about obtaining Nightfall from their ruling house?

Good question, I'm not sure. I'd have to go read those AFFC chapters again to see if there are any clues.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Off topic at bit but, since you mentioned Nightfall, I wanted to point out something bizarre about its ownership. Dalton Greyjoy got the sword off of a "dead corsair" some time before the Dance of Dragons but now for some reason the sword has strangely come into the possession of the Harlaw's. This seems severely odd due to the value of such a sword and the fact that the Greyjoys have been ruling the iron islands the whole time. Why would they allow one of their "lesser houses" to take possession of their Valyrian Steel Sword? Even the Lannisters couldn't get their hands on one of these so how exactly did the Harlaws go about obtaining Nightfall from their ruling house?

AWOIAF tells us the Red Kraken had not taken a rock wife, had only young bastard sons, and that a war of succession followed. The Harlaws must have acquired Nightfall during this tumultuous time.

[Lenabot]

I did read your threads -- I was under the presumption that you favored the second moon exploding while in orbit, and then raining down to the surface the form of a meteor shower. And I remember that you felt BSE/Azor Ahai was the one who caused it, yes? The former I disagree with (to an extent), and the latter I haven't decided on myself.

I say to an extent, because while I think the second moon was destroyed, I don't favor the idea of a meteor shower. And (sorry) I definitely don't think the Azor Ahai myth has anything to do with the moon's destruction. At least not in the way that you favor. That stretch is too big for me. I know we're talking about super-ancient legends, but even still.

But meteor showers aren't a one-hemisphere-only event. Fragments would have scattered all over the atmosphere, visible from almost every corner of the planet. And if the moon had been small to begin with (asteroid-sized), then major impact events are unlikely. Unless you presume that GRRM isn't following science closely (while simultaneously incorporating some of the tiniest, most obscure elements of mythology into every aspect of his backstory).

[LmL]

I did read your threads -- I was under the presumption that you favored the second moon exploding while in orbit, and then raining down to the surface the form of a meteor shower. And I remember that you felt BSE/Azor Ahai was the one who caused it, yes? The former I disagree with (to an extent), and the latter I haven't decided on myself.

I say to an extent, because while I think the second moon was destroyed, I don't favor the idea of a meteor shower. And (sorry) I definitely don't think the Azor Ahai myth has anything to do with the moon's destruction. At least not in the way that you favor. That stretch is too big for me. I know we're talking about super-ancient legends, but even still.

But meteor showers aren't a one-hemisphere-only event. Fragments would have scattered all over the atmosphere, visible from almost every corner of the planet. And if the moon had been small to begin with (asteroid-sized), then major impact events are unlikely. Unless you presume that GRRM isn't following science closely (while simultaneously incorporating some of the tiniest, most obscure elements of mythology into every aspect of his backstory).

I am definitely suggesting that the resulting impact fragments landed across the world - one of them was the arm of Dorne event. The initial explosion of the comet hitting the moon is what would have been witnessed by the east only.

I think it's definitely possible that the moon was smaller, small enough to be destroyed by a large comet and not completely wipe out life on earth, but big enough for a couple of the larger chunks to make it through the atmosphere of Planetos and strike as meteor impact events. I believe the text symbolism suggests there were three fragmented of moon that entered Planetos' atmosphere. One broke up into the meteor shower remembered as the origin of dragons / moon cracking event, the other two impacted as larger meteorites. I believe one meteor OR the shower happened over Asshai and the Shadow; one large chunk broke the arm of Dorne, and I have several possibilities for the other impact.

If you are familiar with mythology I don't understand why it's a stretch to depict a comet coming from the direction of the sun and killing a moon as a fire warrior stabbing his wife with a flaming sword. It's a perfect mythological version of this event. I can't think of a simpler one that would still be a metaphor. And that's what most ancient myth is, at a certain level: metaphor for celestial events and natural phenomena.

[LmL]

The darkness of the Long Night would be a combination of exploded moon debris as well as earth debris thrown up by the two large impacts.

[Mychel_Redfort]

I think it's definitely possible that the moon was smaller, small enough to be destroyed by a large comet and not completely wipe out life on earth, but big enough for a couple of the larger chunks to make it through the atmosphere of Planetos and strike as meteor impact events. I believe the text symbolism suggests there were three fragmented of moon that entered Planetos' atmosphere. One broke up into the meteor shower remembered as the origin of dragons / moon cracking event, the other two impacted as larger meteorites. I believe one meteor OR the shower happened over Asshai and the Shadow; one large chunk broke the arm of Dorne, and I have several possibilities for the other impact.

I was looking at the Westeros map pinned in my office this afternoon : notwithstanding the estuary, don't you think the "hole" in the shape of the Dorne's shore at Starfall looks like an impact crater ?

[Modesty Lannister]

Lastly, Mychel, it's not implausible for the survivors of a nuclear winter to eventually forget the existence of a second moon. Its likely that most people died during the LN. The survivors would have been struggling to survive, and would have lost much of their history and culture. The next few generations would have been a total reset of civilization, and after a while the old stories of a second moon, wherever they existed, would have seemed ridiculous. I believe the more subtle echoes exist, like the stories I mentioned above as well as the "God's Eye" monicker, but nobody remembers the formerly existent second moon. The story of it is only found with the Qarthine tale - most people have forgotten about it.

But there IS a collective myth of the Long Night and how it ended. So, they did pay attention.

[LmL]

But there IS a collective myth of the Long Night and how it ended. So, they did pay attention.

Yep. They have stories coherent stories about the cure for it which have survived, but not knowing the cause, no single coherent narrative (or any surviving narrative at all) for the cause.

[Snarky]

Man, you are the king... This is huge and I have no doubt spectacular.

I have some work now and Pillars of Eternity won't play themselves but I will cut the first and skip the other just to read it.

Expect detailed feed back later today.

^^^^^^^^^ PILLARS OF ETERNITY!!!

[LmL]

Maybe this is a nautical reference to the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, Argo being the name of their ship? It was a was of war waged on the water with the Hungry Wolf building a fleet of ships.

Hilariously, the myth of Jason stealing the Golden Fleece is another version of the Io / Argus myth. The fleece is guarded by a dragon with a thousand eyes who sees in all directions, who is lulled to sleep by a helper (Medea in Jason's case, Hermes in Zeus / Io's case). Io is tied to a tree, the fleece hangs in a tree.

http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakonKholkikos.html

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Hilariously, the myth of Jason stealing the Golden Fleece is another version of the Io / Argus myth. The fleece is guarded by a dragon with a thousand eyes who sees in all directions, who is lulled to sleep by a helper (Medea in Jason's case, Hermes in Zeus / Io's case). Io is tied to a tree, the fleece hangs in a tree.

http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakonKholkikos.html

ay carrumba! good catch!

[LmL]

ay carrumba! good catch!

:)

Of course it's not unusual at all for this to happen. Sometimes one myth from a large culture that breaks down into smaller tribes has the main myth mutate into local versions. Sometimes one myth is passed around and gains local flavor in each place. Often similar myths are unified later for political reasons, often giving rise to Franken-gods like Serapis. Other times people invent similar stories for the same thing - the sun going below the horizon at night seen as a passage through the underworld, or the cycle of the seasons as a death / rebirth character.