Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[LmL]

I myself am not seeing a link betwen CotF and iron, either for or against. I mean, it was fire that the the First Men used to destroy the trees (Ghost of High Heart talks about the FM with "fire in their fists"), and yet, the COTF use fire as a weapon against wights. They use dragonglass, but also weirwood arrows. The point is, they seem to be balancing agents, and as such, will use whatever force they need to to balance out whatever is too strong. Thus, they may aid dragonlords at one time, and work to destroy some at a different time. They have been here for "a thousand thousand" of our "man years," that's a long damn time. Their only agenda is to ensure life goes on.

The evidence for COTF having something to do with metal working is primarily the story of the LH: Old Nan tells us his sword is broken, then he seeks help form the children and wins (but we don't really know how). The records of the NW say the LH had a sword of Dragonsteel that burned his enemies form the inside out (or am I mxining up Colloquo Votar as quoted by Aemon with Sam's reading the NW records). Anyway, this raises the possibility that the COTF helped the LH reforge his sword. I tend to think they told him to add obsidian as opposed to telling him to to forge iron (the COTF don't have forges in their caves, come on guys), or perhaps used spell craft to infuse obsidian into his sword.

[Modesty Lannister]

Your solution could work, but why should it be the only one ?? The CotF could have teached the First Men in the North how to work iron, and since the North is well separated from the southern kingdoms, the knowledge could not have spread south.

Look at this quote from AWOIAF - The North - The Kings of Winter

So in the south, the Andals beat the First Men with iron against bronze, but in the North, they are beaten, and King Theon even pursue them into Andalos. Couldn't that mean that the First Men from the North had iron weapons that could match those of the Andals ?

You could be totally right. And both you and I have no support in the text for a.) my claim that CotF kept knowledge of ironmaking to themselves b.) your claim that they thought the FM above the Neck to cast iron. We only know there are artefacts made of iron and that battles are won, but we also know that it has been repeatedly remarked by the author himself in his own text that the FM did not know how to work iron. I do not care to be right. I am offering an explanation. You offered another with a great quote. But, regardless of who is right, the paradox is there.

ETA: The only thing I would ask you logic wise is why teach only the FM above the Neck to do it?

[Modesty Lannister]

First of all, glad there was some kind of miscommunication there. I like the basalt idea and keep trying to tell you so, but somehow it never manages to come across. I LIKE YOUR IDEA. :)

Have you read any of the threads about iron and oak? I don't recall them very well but iron and oak together have a protective association; all the important doors are iron and oak, if you notice.

I follow your idea about iron being destructive or anti-nature... I don't disagree or agree, having not thought about it enough, but I'm keeping that idea in mind as I run across iron. The warrior women of the Bones mountains citadels are all about iron and rubies, which seems significant but I haven't figured out why.

The Rhoynar and the Sarnori are basically the two best civilizations to ever exist, the two places we would actually want to live in ASOIAF universe. They both were amongst the first to work iron, supposedly, so I don't see any negative connotations there with iron.

As for myhtology, I just cannot disagree more strongly. The only problem with following the influences that George himself clearl used is following them too far - the famous exmaples being the fellow with all the Norse mythology correlations, which are fanatic when considering individual characters and some parts of their arcs or relationships to certain people, but then he went too far, thinking that George would slavishly stick to the plot of Ragnarok 100% - and he drew from this that Tommen was the PTWP, which is idiotic and makes no thematic sense at all narratively or thematically. But that's not at all what I am doing. What I am doing is looking at the symbols around each character and tracing them to their real world counterparts, paying specific attention to the ones George has either stated as an influence (Gnosticism, Cathars, Zoastrianism, Amerindian folklore, Norse myth) or flagged in the text via obvious clues - the raven saying "Corn, King, Jon Snow", for example, is a clear allusion to the Corn King concept, and all the Morningstar stuff means we should look into Morningstar deities and learn about them. I'm almost completely certain that George would like very much for his readers to delve into mythtology and history and LEARN something, particularly the things he has learned and found interesting. The idea that we should not use external myth as clues when he puts characters like Argus the Giant or Garth the Green, who are taken almost directly out of myth into the story seems absurd to me.

If you disagree we will just have to not discuss mythology. I am going to keep unapologetically infusing heavy amounts of external mytholgy into all of my posts, as many, many people find it incredibly edifying and enlightening to the story. I've received several PMs saying that my theories are enjoyable to read just for the mytholgy itself, before I even get into ASOAIF material. It's just so obvious that George is basing pretty much all of his in world myth on real life myth - how can you say we should ignore the source material? I mean, caution against taking it too far, by all means - but ignore it? Only in world ASOAIF material? Sorry, I just cant see the logic there.

But let's not beat a dead horse, agree to disagree.

As for iron, I'm just trying to point out the significance of the metal in the story that we tend to overlook while it is everywhere and hides paradoxes (that GRRM is very fond of btw). I agree with you that the positive or negative significance of iron is highly debatable. I just threw a couple of ideas, but I keep thinking we are missing something very important here. I agree we should leave it aside for the time being, maybe do the whole thread on iron?! But, since we are debating gems and their significance, eye colours of greensears etc, it didn't look like major offence.

As for parallels with mythology, they are undoubtably there, but it is difficult to quantify them. No matter how deep we analyse, we can never be in George's brain and say "he was influenced by XYZ goddess" and know we are right. That's all I'm saying. I believe GRRM is a meticulous writer. That's probably why it takes him ages to finish a book. I admire his meticulousness (and by that I don't mean small errors like a horse's gender). His magic ASOIAF carpet is so complex and intertwined that I am sure he provided everything we need to find our way out of his maze. That's all I'm saying. By all means, feel free to draw all possible parallels with our world. Who am I to interfere? But, we will continue to agree to disagree on that. :cheers:

[Modesty Lannister]

The paradox is how you were able to intrinsically fabricate the scenario into a paradox.

So instead of going with the First Men using primarily Bronze and progressively finding more applications for Iron while still being more focused on the easier/better-known production of bronze (you know, rational thinking based off the actual evolution of bronze and iron/steel)

You choose to go with some sort of euphoric paradox in which the Children are for some reason producing Iron for Men, while still only using Dragonglass for themselves, and never applying this forging knowledge to their own defenses nor even The First Mens defenses, just the nominal gift of a piece of iron here and there, maybe to throw on a crown

God bless you in your future endeavors

And you, as well. :cheers:

[Mychel_Redfort]

You could be totally right. And both you and I have no support in the text for a.) my claim that CotF kept knowledge of ironmaking to themselves b.) your claim that they thought the FM above the Neck to cast iron. We only know there are artefacts made of iron and that battles are won, but we also know that it has been repeatedly remarked by the author himself in his own text that the FM did not know how to work iron. I do not care to be right. I am offering an explanation. You offered another with a great quote. But, regardless of who is right, the paradox is there.

I agree both of our explanations are only theories, but you were the one who claimed yours was "the only solution for this paradox."

ETA: The only thing I would ask you logic wise is why teach only the FM above the Neck to do it?

It depends on when this teaching occurred. It could be during the Long Night, when the CotF and the First Men in the North made alliance against the Others. Or it could be after the Andals destroyed the weirwoods in the South, leading the CotF to give weapons to the First Men in the North.

[Modesty Lannister]

I agree both of our explanations are only theories, but you were the one who claimed yours was "the only solution for this paradox."

It depends on when this teaching occurred. It could be during the Long Night, when the CotF and the First Men in the North made alliance against the Others. Or it could be after the Andals destroyed the weirwoods in the South, leading the CotF to give weapons to the First Men in the North.

Well, Mychel, when I say "the only solution is ...", I feel it is obvious that is just my opinion. Maybe I could have written "the only solution that I can see ...", but I often think (and some other posters remarked this in past debates as well) that it is clear we are offering our theories and opinions here whenever the text does not give us enough data to be absolutely sure (which is more often than not).

All quite plausible and food for thought. Although your theory kind of leans onto my assumption that CotF knew how to work iron. I am sure if we work hard, we will find more in the text to support this. Your argument about Starks and Boltons kicking Andal arses is very interesting from various perspectives. We see Boltons and Starks making common cause, which is not an everyday occurrence.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I could keep going but I don't want to write my whole essay right now. Hope you guys found that interesting. Mithras, in light of your connection between Argoth stone skin and the Grey King, I'm curious what you think of this.

Hey LmlL, as you already know, I have been toying with the idea of The Shrouded Lord and the Grey King/Drowned God possibly being the same and if that is the case, Mithras could be on to something here and could be connected in some form or fashion.

The Shouded Lord and the Grey King both have the overall grey theme going for them (as does Argoth).

Most are in agreement that Patchface is somehow tied to the Drowned God having been found days later cold, half drowned and shell of his former self. GRRM has given us an interesting tidbit of information regarding the Shrouded Lord. According to legend, The Shrouded Lord will grant a boon to anyone who can make him laugh. Could Patchface's talents have earned a boon and as a result sent back to the land of the living? Patchface was said to be so clever he could even teach Stannis how to laugh.

“We have found the most splendid fool,” he wrote Cressen, a fortnight before he was to return home from his fruitless mission. “Only a boy, yet nimble as a monkey and witty as a dozen courtiers."

Now we all know The Grey King took a mermaid to wife and then planned his war against the Storm God. The tale of The Shrouded Lord also notes a mysterious cold woman.

The one that says he’s not like t’other stone men, that he started as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog and kissed him with lips as cold as ice.”

In the series, there is also ship called "the mermaid's kiss"

There have been many members posting threads and theories regarding the Ironborn and Greyscale as well as patchface/greyscale so the greyscale connection is there.

I also believe the Grey King's (grey) appearance was a result of the curse of the First King that would allow no living man to rival the First King hinting that the curse is meant for a First King rival. The tale of the Shouded Lord hints at his greyscale (aka Garin's curse) being punishment for a mysterious prideful sin:

"a curse was placed on the Great Barrow that would allow no living man to rival the First King. This curse made these pretenders to the title grow corpselike in their appearance as it sucked away their vitality and life."

“We are made of blood and bone, in the image of the Father and the Mother,” said Septa Lemore. “Make no vainglorious boasts, I beg you. Pride is a grievous sin. The stone men were proud as well, and the Shrouded Lord was proudest of them all.”

The nickname for the Shrouded Lord is his "Grey Grace" and of course we know that a king or queen is addressed as "your Grace". If Grace=royalty, then the nickname for the Shouded lord is a lot like calling him the Grey King.

Because of this, I think Mithras may be on to something and am keeping an open mind with the tale of Argoth "Stone Skin" (The Grey Giant).

[Crowfood's Daughter]

First off, I hadn't thought of this, but yes, it could explain it... But still, the Andlas had steel, which kicks iron's ass every time... Or most every time I guess. The Starks also likely had warging and greenseeing on their side, which may have been the difference.

Just want to say that I love this little story, the Hungry Wolf kicks so much ass AND THEN goes to Andalos and kicks a bunch more ass. Love it.

And there's Argos again, this time the spelling isn't changed (Argus the guardian of Io is sometimes spelled Argos). I wonder what he's saying here by using Argos as an Andal King, Argos Sevenstar. Of course Sevenstar makes sense as a name for an Andal King, but given that he may be using the Io / Argus story in relation to the Hightower's founding, I wonder what the implication is here. The Andlas definitely seem to have Chirch of Starry Wisdom fingerprints all over them.

Maybe this is a nautical reference to the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, Argo being the name of their ship? It was a was of war waged on the water with the Hungry Wolf building a fleet of ships.

[LmL]

The link for the Argos / Io / Hermes story:

http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteArgosPanoptes.html

[LmL]

Crowfoods' D, (chuckles at that changed connotation) I'm curious what you make of the idea of greyscale flowing both ways. The kiss of the mermaid brings a statue to life - the opposite of greyscale. I buy the Barrow King curse applying to the Grey King, as you know, and I believe the world book strongly implies that Garth is the Barrow King, the First King of the First Men. Since he's the epitome of a sacrificial animal god, dying in the winter and being resurrected to bring the spring, this starts to fit together. The grey King was such a threat that Garth sacrificed himself to curse the Grey King.

I don't think "the Grey King" was originally his name. What the shrouded lord has in common here is the ambition. This is part of the Morningstar deity arc - challenging God and failing, then ebbing resurrected as a lord of the dead. The NK, shrouded lord, and Grey King all fit this arc.

I confess I'm still having trouble fitting he shrouded lord into anything. I just assumed he was Garin.

[LmL]

Someone on deviant art did a project superimposing gemstones into people's irises. Pretty cool, and the bloodstone eyes look hella creepy.

http://padfoot7411.deviantart.com/art/Birthstone-Eye-Bloodstone-108120681

[LmL]

Gemstone eyes? Anyone? The bloodstone one is creepy - I wouldn't trust that guy.

[aryagonnakill#2]

As to the possibility of the North having steal to fight the Andals, of course it is possible, and I think even likely. We are told that Reach houses and Stormlands and Westerlands houses wound up intermarrying with Andals rather than being conquered. They looked for blacksmiths and stone masons and paid them well. Since the North was the last place the Andals turned too, it seems perfectly logical that they would have had at least some steal, if not as much as the Andals.

[Mychel_Redfort]

And don't we have a nice hint with the name of the Stark king who's supposed to have fight the Andals with iron : King Theon Stark...

[LmL]

I just noticed something: Maekar Targaryen married a Dayne. Maker and his brother Baelor Breakspear, as well as their father Daeron, all “looked Dornish,” with darker hair and looks. After marrying a Dayne, Maekar’s kids are way more Targaryen looking - Aerion Brightflame and Egg, notably. So we’ve got a healthy infusing of GeoDawnian blood in to the Targ line for the first time, very interesting. And it increased their “Vayrian” looks.

Egg married a Blackwood, and after that brother and sister married for two generations. So, both Rhagar and Daenerys are 1/4 Dayne, 1/4 Targ, and 1/2 half Blackwood (not sure who Betha Blackwood’s mother was).

[Modesty Lannister]

I just noticed something: Maekar Targaryen married a Dayne. Maker and his brother Baelor Breakspear, as well as their father Daeron, all “looked Dornish,” with darker hair and looks. After marrying a Dayne, Maekar’s kids are way more Targaryen looking - Aerion Brightflame and Egg, notably. So we’ve got a healthy infusing of GeoDawnian blood in to the Targ line for the first time, very interesting. And it increased their “Vayrian” looks.

Egg married a Blackwood, and after that brother and sister married for two generations. So, both Rhagar and Daenerys are 1/4 Dayne, 1/4 Targ, and 1/2 half Blackwood (not sure who Betha Blackwood’s mother was).

How can they be half Blackwood when their great-grandmother was a Blackwood? Bloodraven is half Blackwood and so were Egg's children.

[Equilibrium]

I just noticed something: Maekar Targaryen married a Dayne. Maker and his brother Baelor Breakspear, as well as their father Daeron, all “looked Dornish,” with darker hair and looks. After marrying a Dayne, Maekar’s kids are way more Targaryen looking - Aerion Brightflame and Egg, notably. So we’ve got a healthy infusing of GeoDawnian blood in to the Targ line for the first time, very interesting. And it increased their “Vayrian” looks.

Egg married a Blackwood, and after that brother and sister married for two generations. So, both Rhagar and Daenerys are 1/4 Dayne, 1/4 Targ, and 1/2 half Blackwood (not sure who Betha Blackwood’s mother was).

That is why BR wanted to get Aegon on the throne, fits perfectly with my theory how he got him there http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121145-prince-that-was-promised-bloodraven-and-great-spring-sickness/

How can they be half Blackwood when their great-grandmother was a Blackwood? Bloodraven is half Blackwood and so were Egg's children.

Because Jaehaerys and Shaera are both 1/2 Blackwood, so their Aerys and Rhaella are also 1/2 Blackwood so Rhaegar Viserys and Daenerys are also 1/2 Blackwood. If both parents are 1/2 Blackwood then it's like one parent is 100% Blackwood

Marriage with Daynes strengthens your theory about reconciling with enemy. When you will post it, it am allowed to ask, I think it will be great read and can hardly wait.

[Modesty Lannister]

That is why BR wanted to get Aegon on the throne, fits perfectly with my theory how he got him there http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121145-prince-that-was-promised-bloodraven-and-great-spring-sickness/

Because Jaehaerys and Shaera are both 1/2 Blackwood, so their Aerys and Rhaella are also 1/2 Blackwood so Rhaegar Viserys and Daenerys are also 1/2 Blackwood. If both parents are 1/2 Blackwood then it's like one parent is 100% Blackwood

Marriage with Daynes strengthens your theory about reconciling with enemy. When you will post it, it am allowed to ask, I think it will be great read and can hardly wait.

Thanks for clarification. My mind is turning to mush. This Blackwood link is increasingly interesting. Blackwoods are also the blood link between Targaryens and Starks. Also, the weirwood tree on their property seems dead and petrified, but still ravens flock on it instead of red weirwood leaves. The petrification of the weirwood tree can be linked to the invasion of the Riverlands by the Ironborn. Yet, why would ravens still feel attracted to it? Any ideas?

[LmL]

It does indeed fit with the theme of Targs making peace with enemies. That's really subtle - good job picking up on that Modesty L. Not sure if it's a thing George is intending or not, but it sure could be.

It seems like the weirwoods still have a certain amount of power even after they have petrified. The stump that Jamie dreams on, the stumps of the high heart. A similar question is that of Coldhands and the fact that even though he is clearly undead, The elk is not afraid of him. He seems to understand the ravens, and they seem to talk to him and follow him around. I am wondering if he was a greenseer in life, and that maybe resurrecting a greenseer doesn't work out the way it usually does when the Others resurrect someone. The ravens seem to like the dead weirwoods, and they like dead Coldhands. Dead weirwoods still have power, and dead Coldhands seems to have power with animals. Not sure if these ideas are connected or not but it's interesting.

Could the Blackwoods represent the trunk of a tree uniting disparate branches of Westerosi blood?

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Thanks for clarification. My mind is turning to mush. This Blackwood link is increasingly interesting. Blackwoods are also the blood link between Targaryens and Starks. Also, the weirwood tree on their property seems dead and petrified, but still ravens flock on it instead of red weirwood leaves. The petrification of the weirwood tree can be linked to the invasion of the Riverlands by the Ironborn. Yet, why would ravens still feel attracted to it? Any ideas?

Ive wondered the same thing for a while. Your guess is as good as mine, but I have wondered about something located underneath it maybe? There are tunnels and greenseers attached to many if not all of these trees. Of course the greenseer attached to this tree would most certainly be dead. Weirwood trees are often used for gravesites as well so this could also be a possibility.

From the wiki

Raventree is located in Blackwood Vale north of Riverrun and the Red Fork. Some Blackwoods are buried in the village Cairns, while others are buried beneath the dead weirwood of Raventree.

There was also some inconsistency in TWOIAF which I found odd stating that the Blackwoods were "driven from the north" by the Kings of Winter so Raventree would have been established some time after the Long Night (if the timeline and history of the Stark Kings is accurate).

BUT TWOIAF also states the Blackwoods once ruled the Riverlands as Kings during the Age of Heroes. So unless their writ included the Riverlands, the Neck and extended all the way to the Wolfswood they couldn't have ruled both places at one time.