Astronomy of Planetos: Fingerprints of the Dawn

[LmL]

Returning to Norvos, I'm going to use this info in the next essay, Mithras, so I'll be sure to credit you. Great work and thank you.

First off, Areo Hotoh is a psychopath. The whole time we are in his head, he does nothing but think about possibly needing to kill everyone in the room. That's all good, he's a guard, he's vigilant, right? Then why does he constantly think about killing all the Sand Snakes whenever they are near Doran, even though none of them come anywhere close to threatening him, have a motive to threaten him, and even though it's pretty obvious DORAN WOULD BE UPSET if Hotoh killed them. Yet every time someone is in the room with Doran, Hotah thinks of killing him. Dude is a PSYCHO. Who marries an axe?? Anyway. Had to get that off my chest.

I can't help but notice the similarity to Leng - there are secret underground temples which no one can enter and live without permission. The gods speak to the ruling class directly in these secret temples, and their edicts are law. The Old Ones at Leng periodically tell the Empress to kill all foreigners on the island. And the secret cities of Leng go for miles, all through the jungle. Extensive cave system. Lorath's mazes also descend hundreds of feet into the earth - I've always seen a parallel between Leng and Lorath (both very tall also), although they are so distant it's hard to propose anything but a very remote common origin as opposed to direct contact.

We need to figure out how the ancient Andals switched from the Axe to the seven pointed star. Where did their religion come from? Who is Hugor Hill? And, most importantly, where and when did they meet church of starry wisdom people who brainwashed then and filled their heads with astronomy and astrology?

[Durran Durrandon]

Returning to Norvos, I'm going to use this info in the next essay, Mithras, so I'll be sure to credit you. Great work and thank you.

First off, Areo Hotoh is a psychopath. The whole time we are in his head, he does nothing but think about possibly needing to kill everyone in the room. That's all good, he's a guard, he's vigilant, right? Then why does he constantly think about killing all the Sand Snakes whenever they are near Doran, even though none of them come anywhere close to threatening him, have a motive to threaten him, and even though it's pretty obvious DORAN WOULD BE UPSET if Hotoh killed them. Yet every time someone is in the room with Doran, Hotah thinks of killing him. Dude is a PSYCHO. Who marries an axe?? Anyway. Had to get that off my chest.

LOL

[Modesty Lannister]

It is interesting that axes feature on one sigil in Westeros - House Dustin.

[LmL]

LOL

I’m saying! On my recent re-reads this has really jumped out to me. I didn’t even want to re-read them at first, because he’s so insufferable, but I was hunting for clues about Dorne (found a few) and so I had to. it happens over and over - any time anyone takes one step in Doran’s direction, Areo has an extended inner monologue about killing that person - how strong they are, how he would strike, and of course he takes time to bathe in overconfidence of his own victory. Fucking crazy man. He has no life, and delights in it. Even the Kingsguard aren’t this freaking crazy - okay, well Ser Gerold Hightower comes close. But still. I’ve never heard anyone really talk about Areo and his constant homicidal urges.

[LmL]

It is interesting that axes feature on one sigil in Westeros - House Dustin.

Oh good catch, and they have that black crown which i take to be significant as well. Barrow King / First King is ancient FM culture, interesting to find an axe there. House Cerwyn of course has the battle axe as well, and its a double headed one too.

[Modesty Lannister]

Oh good catch, and they have that black crown which i take to be significant as well. Barrow King / First King is ancient FM culture, interesting to find an axe there. House Cerwyn of course has the battle axe as well, and its a double headed one too.

That is why I am not sure Norvos is about the Andals at all. Brown bears and grey wolves and axes of the First King. What if axes carved in stones where symbols of the First Men while a seven pointed star was a symbol of the Andals?

[LmL]

That is why I am not sure Norvos is about the Andals at all. Brown bears and grey wolves and axes of the First King. What if axes carved in stones where symbols of the First Men while a seven pointed star was a symbol of the Andals?

This is possible, as the Andals seem to have followed some of the same migration patterns away from the Silver Seas kingdoms, and certainly share the Axe imagery to some extent. However the FM didn’t carve any axes on rocks but rather runes, while the Andals kept carving axes on rocks even after landing in the Vale. It’s possible the axe symbology originated with the First Men in Essos, and was left behind for the Andals to pick up later, and they were the ones who started carving the axes in stone... Then later the Andals picked up the seven pointed star from their Church of Starry wisdom cult leaders (chuckles at own conspiracy theory) who taught them of Hugor Hill and his fallen stars.

[Modesty Lannister]

Tis is possible, as the Andals seem to have followed some of the same migration patterns away from the Silver Seas kingdoms. However the FM didn’t carve any axes on rocks but rather runes, while the Andals kept carving axes on rocks even after landing in the Vale. It’s possible the axe symbology originated with the First Men in essay, and was left behind for the Andals to pick up later, and they started carving the axes in stone... then later picking up the seven pointed star from their Church of Starry wisdom cult leaders (chuckles at own conspiracy theory)

And who is to say axes carved in stone where carved at the same time as 7 pointed stars? Maybe they were carved during the FM invasion of Westeros. On the other hand, why would all FM leave for Westeros? Someone always stays behind. The fact that axes stopped showing up on stones in Westeros suggest the axes may be much older carvings, so the were the first disappear from the stones due to rain and wind. Or that they were carved by the second wave of the FM who came with the Andals and were fewer than the Andals.

I do not think the link between the Andals and the Church of Starry Wisdom is crackpot. I just do not see how it can be proven with the text we have.

[LmL]

And who is to say axes carved in stone where carved at the same time as 7 pointed stars? Maybe they were carved during the FM invasion of Westeros. On the other hand, why would all FM leave for Westeros? Someone always stays behind. The fact that axes stopped showing up on stones in Westeros suggest the axes may be much older carvings, so the were the first disappear from the stones due to rain and wind. Or that they were carved by the second wave of the FM who came with the Andals and were fewer than the Andals.

I do not think the link between the Andals and the Church of Starry Wisdom is crackpot. I just do not see how it can be proven with the text we have.

The times carved by the first men have not dissappeared - we have no evidence for First Men carving axes in Wetseros. The aces in the Vale are definitely the work of the Andals, the tire historical record of the Vale tells us so. That's where the Andals invaded, that's where the axes are carved, side by side with seven pointed stars. Case closed, the Andals carved those.

If any First Men remained behind in Andal country for 6,000 years, they would be fully assimilated into Andal culture. The axe carvings in Andalos are indisputably Andal - they left them everywhere they went. They may be a link between the First Men and Andals (it seems likely) but you cannot divorce the axe carvings from the Andals.

[LmL]

The COSW stuff shall remain a shadow conspiracy (pun intended) until we get a bit more about them in future books. For now they are simply a 10,000 year old cult that links the magical knowledge of Bloodstone Emperor to the present day.

[J. Stargaryen]

I posted this in part two, but I went to edit it and discovered it has since been locked.

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Was just thinking about how bloodstone is supposed to be green spotted with red, and it reminded me of Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Green Fork of the Trident. And how Robert's Rebellion is also known as the War of the Usurper. And Robert is referred to as usurper about thirty times in each of the first three books.

In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

Robert's usurpation? I mean, just how long have the Others been 'back'?

When Robert killed Rhaegar, it gave Tywin his chance for revenge against Aerys for all of his sleights.

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries … yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, ...

This is from the paragraph prior to the bloodstone betrayal, but the bold could apply the current situation. Joffrey's reign, followed by Tommen's, followed by?

Btw, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the OP, as I think the subtext can have more than one meaning. But just wanted to point out a contemporary parallel. History repeating itself and all.

[LmL]

I posted this in part two, but I went to edit it and discovered it has since been locked.

---

Was just thinking about how bloodstone is supposed to be green spotted with red, and it reminded me of Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Green Fork of the Trident. And how Robert's Rebellion is also known as the War of the Usurper. And Robert is referred to as usurper about thirty times in each of the first three books.

Robert's usurpation? I mean, just how long have the Others been 'back'?

When Robert killed Rhaegar, it gave Tywin his chance for revenge against Aerys for all of his sleights.

This is from the paragraph prior to the bloodstone betrayal, but the bold could apply the current situation. Joffrey's reign, followed by Tommen's, followed by?

Btw, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the OP, as I think the subtext can have more than one meaning. But just wanted to point out a contemporary parallel. History repeating itself and all.

History repeating itself is part of the original premise, way back in paragraph one of part one. :cool4: The idea is that the celestial events created a pattern which plays out on earth over and over in various permutations until balance and harmony are restored somehow. That’s why so many people and things seem like Azor Ahai - he’s trying to be reborn, he’s manifesting all over the place. Or, at least, his archetype is, with all its accompanying symbolism.

I like you observation. No one has come up with the exact trigger for the Others manifesting; it happened before the events of AGoT proper by a year or so. Before Ned died, etc. I will think more on these parallels, but you are the color expert, so I’m inclined to go with your assessment. I think the red on green has to do with bloodshed, did you see the bit I added about the bloodstone getting its name from supposedly being at the foot of the cross and catching Christ’s blood? Rhaegar, the three headed dragon, dying is definitely significant. Killed by a stag, too, no less. Interesting.

[J. Stargaryen]

History repeating itself is part of the original premise, way back in paragraph one of part one. :cool4: The idea is that the celestial events created a pattern which plays out on earth over and over in various permutations until balance and harmony are restored somehow. That’s why so many people and things seem like Azor Ahai - he’s trying to be reborn, he’s manifesting all over the place. Or, at least, his archetype is, with all its accompanying symbolism.

I like you observation. No one has come up with the exact trigger for the Others manifesting; it happened before the events of AGoT proper by a year or so. Before Ned died, etc. I will think more on these parallels, but you are the color expert, so I’m inclined to go with your assessment. I think the red on green has to do with bloodshed, did you see the bit I added about the bloodstone getting its name from supposedly being at the foot of the cross and catching Christ’s blood? Rhaegar, the three headed dragon, dying is definitely significant. Killed by a stag, too, no less. Interesting.

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince." - HotU

That's interesting about Jesus. We already know that Rhaegar placed the crown of roses in Lyanna's lap, and crown of roses suggests crown of thorns.

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Was kind of surprised no one commented on my last post about the possible link between Dany and 'sea dragons'. Nagga was not only a sea dragon, but also a she dragon, iirc. Was this discussed (and/or dismissed) already? I've been trying to keep up, but have to admit to skimming over some comments lately.

[LmL]

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince." - HotU

That's interesting about Jesus. We already know that Rhaegar placed the crown of roses in Lyanna's lap, and crown of roses suggests crown of thorns.

---

Was kind of surprised no one commented on my last post about the possible link between Dany and 'sea dragons'. Nagga was not only a sea dragon, but also a she dragon, iirc. Was this discussed (and/or dismissed) already? I've been trying to keep up, but have to admit to skimming over some comments lately.

I saw that one. I think the sea dragon is apt - as I have been saying, if a comet or flaming meteor is a dragon, one that lands at sea and / or causes tidal waves is a sea dragon. The sea dragon which the Grey King slew drowned whole islands in her wroth - this is nonsensical rhetoric is describing an actual sea monster. But a sea dragon as a meteor which fractures the land causing tidal waves - the arm of Dorne or the severing of the Iron Islands - makes a deal of sense to be described as drowning islands.

Furthermore, the idea that the destroyed moon was an eight wanderer, fallen from the sky and drowned in the sea is a drowned god, literally. I think the Ironborn myths are a bit screwed up, and the sea dragon they speak of IS the drowned God. The Grey King stole fire from the storm god - that is another description of a gambling meteor falling from the sky (and killing weirwoods in this case, either by fire or by severing the islands (and thus the trees' connection to weirwoodnet) from Westeros proper.

Kind of makes sense Euron and Victarion are coming to try to claim the Sea Dragon, if Dany has that as per of her persona. She is of course stormborn and a lover of the ocean. So I think there is def something to your observation about the sea dragon.

[Mithras]

The Fisher Queens were wise and benevolent and favored of the gods, we are told, and kings and lords and wise men sought the floating palace for their counsel. Beyond their domains, however, other peoples rose and fell and fought, struggling for a place in the sun. Some maesters believe that the First Men originated here before beginning the long westward migration that took them across the Arm of Dorne to Westeros. The Andals, too, may have arisen in the fertile fields south of the Silver Sea. Tales are told of the Hairy Men, a race of shaggy savage warriors, who rode to battle on unicorns. Though larger than the Ibbenese of the present, they may well have been their forebears. We hear as well of the lost city Lyber, where acolytes of a spider goddess and a serpent god fought an endless, bloody war. East of them stood the kingdoms of the centaurs, half man and half horse.

The legendary Fisher Queens ruled from the Silver Sea, which was a large inland sea in the middle of the current Dothraki grasslands. This sea is dried up now and only three lakes (one of which is the Womb of the World) survived as its last remnants. Above quote shows that the Hairy Men originated from here and the Ibbenese (along with the Skagosi) should be their descendants. The First Men and the Andals were also said to originate from here. These two should either be descendants of the Hairy Men or their close kin that existed around the same times. So, I think it is a good bet that most of the known human races originated in the fertile fields surrounding the Silver Sea.

This works well with the Dothraki legend of origin about the first man riding out of the Womb of the World on the first horse. Surely, these men were very savage at first but they learned skinchanging from these Fisher Queens and that is how horses and dogs and other animals were domesticated. Domestication of animals (especially dogs) was perhaps the most important leap towards civilization in the human history.

The era of the Fisher Queens sounds like it was a matriarchal civilization. Mother Goddess worship is perhaps the oldest religion in human history and wherever it existed, we see matriarchal cultures. The Labrys I mentioned previously is a symbol used in matriarchal cultures. So, this should be the reason why it was chosen as a symbol in feminist movement in modern times.

Therefore, the abandonment of the double-bladed axe symbol by the Andals is like turning their back to their matriarchal origins. That sounds like the Blood Betrayal to me.

On the "Perseus Vase" in Berlin (F1704; ca 570–560 BC), Hephaestus ritually flees his act of slicing open the head of Zeus to free Athena whose pregnant mother Zeus swallowed to prevent her offspring from dethroning him. Over the shoulder of Hephaestus is the instrument he has used, the double-headed axe. The more usual double-headed instrument of Hephaestus is the double-headed smith's hammer so the symbolism is important. Zeus swallowing the goddess symbolized the progressive suppression of the earlier traditional religious beliefs, symbolically dethroning the goddess, Metis, but allowing Athene (her daughter) to be "born" of Zeus because her worship was so pervasive and widespread that it could not be suppressed. That is likely the reason the labrys was depicted as the instrument used by Hephaestus (who much earlier had been a consort of the Earth goddess) to release Athene.

This is very interesting because the Labrys was used by Hephaestus (this ugly god was the god of the lowborn and the poor) to release Athene who was oppressed by the chief male deity in fear of dethroning him. Note that Hephaestus is a smith who wielded a hammer most of the time. Recall the previous quote I provided:

It should be said, however, that not all agree that these carvings represent axes. In his refutation, Maester Evlyn argues that what Harmune calls axes are in fact hammers, the sign of the Smith. He explains the irregularity of the depictions of these hammers as the result of the Andals’ being warriors, not artisans.

It is a clear reference to Hephaestus, the hammer and the Labrys right?

[Mithras]

Though the eastern waters of the Shivering Sea are as rich as those of the west, few come to fish them save the Ibbenese themselves , for beyond the Bones are found the lands of the nomadic Jogos Nhai, a savage race of mounted warriors with no ships and no interest in the sea.

Yet in many ways these riders of the Further East are very different from the horselords of the west. The Jogos Nhai are as a rule a head shorter than their counterparts and less comely to western eyes— squat, bowlegged, and swarthy, with large heads, small faces, and a sallow cast of skin . Men and women both have pointed skulls, a result of their curious custom of binding the heads of their newborn during their first two years of life. Where Dothraki warriors pride themselves on the length of their braid, the men of the Jogos Nhai shave their heads but for a single strip of hair down the center of the skull, whilst their women go wholly bald and are said to scrape all the hair from their female parts as well.

Unlike the Dothraki, whose khals lead huge khalasars across the grasslands, the Jogos Nhai travel in small bands, closely connected by blood. Each band is commanded by a jhat, or war chief, and a moonsinger, who combines the roles of priestess, healer, and judge. The jhat leads in war and battle and raid, whilst other matters are ruled by the band’s moonsinger.

Dothraki khals make endless war on one another once beyond the sacred precincts of Vaes Dothrak, their holy city, but the gods of the Jogos Nhai forbid them to shed the blood of their own people (young men do ride out to steal goats, dogs, and zorses from other bands, whilst their sisters go forth to abduct husbands, but these are rituals hallowed by the gods of the plains, during which no blood may be shed).

Jogos Nhai and the Dothraki culture are almost the same except one basic difference: wherever the Dothraki culture is described to be bad, the Jogos Nhai is depicted as good.

For example, Jogos Nhai are organized in small bands bonded with blood. They have two leaders, male and female with equally important tasks. The Dothraki are male dominated save the dosh khaleen but the dosh khaleen’s function are far inferior to that the moonsingers. The Dothraki kill each other constantly but the Jogos Nhai are forbidden to shed the blood of their own people.

Legend claims that it was the Jogos Nhai, led by the jhattar— the jhat of jhats and war leader of the whole people— Gharak Squint-Eye, who slew the last of the stone giants of Jhogwin at the Battle in the Howling Hills.

Now this is a very important quote. If you look at the map, you will see that after the Jogos Nhai defeated the giants called the Jhogwin in the Dothraki language, they gained a passage to the west. The first thing they encountered is the Kingdom of the Ifequevron along with the the Mother of Mountains and the Womb of the World. Therefore, the Dothraki of today should be the descendants of the Jhogos Nhai who passed west through the Realm of the Jhogwin. In the passing, they gained new genetic heritage which made them larger, taller and more beautiful. Since the CotF are described to have certain dark beauty, I think the beauty aspect comes from them. The growth in size might be due to captured female giants and hybrids sired from them.

Another interesting note is that the Dothraki and the Lhazareen have the same genetic heritage but the Dothraki culture seems to be perverted compared to the Lhazareen similar to the perversion of Andals from their peaceful, matriarchal origins.

During the long reign of Lo Han, forty -second scarlet emperor, three such invasions of the plains ended as described, yet the end of his days found the Jogos Nhai bolder and more rapacious than they had been when first he donned the imperial regalia. Upon his death, therefore, his young and valiant son Lo Bu determined to end the threat posed by the nomads for all time. Assembling a mighty host, said to be three hundred thousand strong, this bold young emperor crossed the frontiers with slaughter as his only purpose. Tribute could not sway him, nor hostages, nor oaths of fealty and offerings of peace; his vast army swept across the plains like a scythe, destroying all, leaving a burning wasteland behind it.

When the Jogos Nhai resorted to their traditional tactics, melting away at his approach, Lo Bu divided his huge army into thirteen smaller hosts and sent them forth in all directions to hunt down the nomads wherever they might go. It is written that a million Jogos Nhai died at their hands.

At last the nomads, facing the extinction of their race, did what they had never done before. A thousand rival clans joined together and raised up a jhattar, a woman in man’s mail named Zhea. Known as Zhea the Barren, Zhea Zorseface, and Zhea the Cruel, and famed even then for her cunning, she is remembered to this day in the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, where mothers whisper her name to frighten unruly children into obedience.

In courage, valor, and skill at arms, Lo Bu had no peer, but in cunning he proved to be no match for Zhea. The war between the young emperor and the wizened jhattar lasted less than two years. Zhea isolated each of Lo Bu’s thirteen armies, slew their scouts and foragers, starved them, denied them water, led them into wastelands and traps, and destroyed them each in turn. Finally her swift riders descended upon Lo Bu’s own host, in a night of carnage and slaughter so terrible that every stream for twenty leagues around was choked with blood.

Amongst the slain was Lo Bu himself, the forty-third and last of the scarlet emperors. When his severed head was presented to Zhea, she commanded that the flesh be stripped from the bone, so that his skull might be dipped in gold and made into her drinking cup. From that time to this, every jhattar of the Jogos Nhai has drunk fermented zorse milk from the gilded skull of the Boy Too Bold By Half, as Lo Bu is remembered.

This story sounds like the fulfillment of the prophecy of The Stallion Who Mounts the World with slight differences. Instead of raiding and pillaging, the Jhogos Nhai were united under a single leader for the purpose of thwarting the existential threat.

Before the Dry Times and the coming of the Great Sand Sea, the Jogos Nhai fought many a bloody border war against the Patrimony of Hyrkoon as well, poisoning rivers and wells, burning towns and cities, and carrying off thousands into slavery on the plains, whilst the Hyrkoon for their part were sacrificing tens of thousands of the zorse-riders to their dark and hungry gods. The enmity between the nomads and the warrior women of the Bones runs deep and bitter to this very day, and over the centuries a dozen jhattars have led armies up the Steel Road. Thus far all these assaults have broken against the walls of Kayakayanaya, yet the moonsingers still sing of the glorious day to come when the Jogos Nhai shall prevail and spill over the mountains to claim the fertile lands beyond.

This also sounds like a part of the prophecy of The Stallion Who Mounts the World.

Further comments about geography:

At the easternmost part of the known world, there are the lands beyond Five Forts. All sorts of creepy stuff are reported about those places. The nature seems to be as corrupt as it could get. There are monsters there and there are places even these monsters fear to go.

Coming a little west across the Bleeding Sea, we have the Plains of Jogos Nhai. Once it was a vast, fertile landscape during the ancient civilization of the Patrimony of Hyrkoon. But now, we see that the Great Sand Sea has formed where there was a sea that dried up for some reason according to the maesters. This drying up still continues because there is the Shrinking Sea in the neighborhood, which is still undergoing this process.

The plains of Jogos Nhai are drier and less fertile than the Dothraki sea and their grasses are sparser. It looks like some corruption killing the natural life is slowly moving westward from the terrible places beyond the Five Forts. There is also this strange claim that K’dath, which is located beyond the Five Forts, is said to be the oldest city in the world and it is such an evil place that even the shrykes (lizard-men) fear to tread there.

There are even more clues about the corruption spreading westward. There are three passages across the Bone Mountains. Between two southernmost passages, we have the Red Waste, the Poison Sea, and the ruins of Adakhakileki (little is known of its inhabitants, although its Dothraki language name means "The Cannibals"). However, the northern passage (Steel Road) and the lands beyond it (Vaes Dothrak, the Kingdom of Ifequevron) are somewhat preserved and the land is still fertile there. Is it due to some CotF magic? I think so.

But we know that there was the vast Silver Sea in the middle of Dothraki Sea which also dried up mostly save three lakes. So, the grasslands of the Dothraki Sea were once even more fertile than they are now. I think the cataclysm which started the corruption we talked about destroyed the Silver Sea but the corruption was cured by the CotF magic there.

Now recall the Dothraki apocalyptic legend that one day the ghost grass will cover the entire world and kill all the other grasses. Everything makes perfect sense. This invasive corruption (because we know that ghost grass grows in Asshai and the Shadowlands) is moving westward and the Dothraki seers prophesized that the cataclysm responsible for this corruption (we can now call it the Long night) will happen again. This also speaks well with the Jogos Nhai prophecy that one day they will breach the Bone Mountains to claim more fertile lands. We can also relate the grey plague in Yi Ti which we hear in the main series twice IIRC. Something is surely happening.

Thanks to the foolish Valyrians, now we have two more sources of invasive corruption in close neighborhood: Valyria and Sothoryos. The Lands of Always Winter also seem to be a similar source of corruption because George himself said that the Others are coming to destroy “what we call life“.

I also think that beyond the Iron Islands, there is another source of corruption which affects both the Iron Islands and the Ironborn. Yet another source should be at the Cannibal Bay, which is said to be somewhere in the Shivering Sea and its effects can be seen in Skagos and Ib.

Cannibal Sands beyond the Five Forts, around the Grey Waste; cannibal people beside the Posion Sea and the Red Waste; Canibal Bay somewhere in the Shivering Sea; Skagos being a reputed as a cannibal island; it looks like cannibalism is associated with the places affected by this corruption we are talking about.

The series has lots to do with cannibalism. What if the greatest offense of the Rat Cook was cannibalism rather than breaking the guest right? What if cannibalism enhances and speeds up this the spread of the corruption? Blood sacrifices also seem to run hand to hand with cannibalism. In fact, we are listing the atrocities committed by the Bloodstone Emperor and still being committed by fools.

[Modesty Lannister]

I posted this in part two, but I went to edit it and discovered it has since been locked.

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Was just thinking about how bloodstone is supposed to be green spotted with red, and it reminded me of Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Green Fork of the Trident. And how Robert's Rebellion is also known as the War of the Usurper. And Robert is referred to as usurper about thirty times in each of the first three books.

Robert's usurpation? I mean, just how long have the Others been 'back'?

When Robert killed Rhaegar, it gave Tywin his chance for revenge against Aerys for all of his sleights.

This is from the paragraph prior to the bloodstone betrayal, but the bold could apply the current situation. Joffrey's reign, followed by Tommen's, followed by?

Btw, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the OP, as I think the subtext can have more than one meaning. But just wanted to point out a contemporary parallel. History repeating itself and all.

This is pure genius. I read this in a shorter version on the now locked thread. One thing I can add is that since a single amethyst stone can go from purple to green (I have one, so I know). This whole bloodstone change can actually be using rubies as glamour to change one's eye colour from purple (amethyst princess) to green (bloodstone emperor).

[LmL]

Man, if had a nickel for every response the computer has eaten in the last 2 days. Man!! I heard there's a popular TV show or something. Ugh.

Anyway, yes, the bloodstone red on green thing may be something to look out for. It's an odd combination and may not be obvious, as it's not one people were looking for.

It may be worth noting that the red in bloodstone is often purplish. Not sure how deep George is going here but I thought I would mention in light of the purple to green thing Modesty mentioned.

[LmL]

So Mithras, I really enjoyed your comments, you're quite the fake historian (one who studies fake history). I've noticed the similarities between the Joghos Nhai and Dothraki or course, as we are meant to, but you drew some parallels and conclusions I had missed - great analysis. You clearly have a mind for this stuff. If it's alright with you I will send you the draft of my sequel to this one, tracing the descendents of the GeoDawnians, as you will surely catch some things I did not. Plus we can cook up the grand Church of Starry Wisdom conspiracy manifesto, that should be fun.

So, going through your comments, I'd like to start with the Fisher Queens. With the Sarnori, First Men, Andals, possibly Qaathii all originating from the Silver Sea area (and likely many other people's too), this is clearly a major diaspora, a cultural disperion point. The GeoDawnian dispora was also a major dispersal point - these seem to be the big two in the Dawn Age. Clearly the Silver Sea kingdoms of the Fisher Queens were Dawn Age peoples, concurrent with the GeoDawnians. I agree they absolutely must represent the matriarchal roots of human existence. The Silver Sea is a moon reference I believe - Dany is often called the silver queen, and silver is often used for moon symbolism. Need to research that a bit. But what is a Fisher Queen? Someone mentioned that it's a term used for the main stars mariners use for navigation. I need to research that idea as well, although on its face it's pretty terrific. The descendents of the Fisher Queens, the Sarnori, were skilled mariners who sailed as far as the 1000 islands and traded with everyone in the world, just about.

Wikipedia however really wants to tell me about the Fisher King instead. This is an Arthurian character, the Grail keeper. I'm gonna quote a couple paragraphs here because there are many significant details and I don't think I'm interpreting them all correctly.

In Arthurian legend the Fisher King, or the Wounded King, is the latest in a long line charged with keeping the Holy Grail. Versions of his story vary widely, but he is always wounded in the legs or groin and incapable of moving on his own. In the Fisher King legends, he becomes impotent and unable to perform his task himself, and he also becomes unable to father or support a next generation to carry on after his death. His kingdom suffers as he does, his impotence affecting the fertility of the land and reducing it to a barren wasteland. All he is able to do is fish in the river near his castle, Corbenic, and wait for someone who might be able to heal him. Healing involves the expectation of the use of magic. Knights travel from many lands to heal the Fisher King, but only the chosen can accomplish the feat. This is Percival in earlier stories; in later versions, he is joined by Galahad and Bors.

Many works have two wounded "Grail Kings" who live in the same castle, a father and son (or grandfather and grandson). The more seriously wounded father stays in the castle, sustained by the Grail alone, while the more active son can meet with guests and go fishing. For the purposes of clarity in the remainder of this article, where both appear, the father will be called the Wounded King, the son the Fisher King.

CELTIC MYTH

The Fisher King appears first in Chrétien de Troyes' Perceval (late 12th-century), but the character's roots may lie in Celtic mythology. He may derive more or less directly from the figure of Bran the Blessed in the Mabinogion; in the Second Branch, Bran has a cauldron that can resurrect the dead (albeit imperfectly; those thus revived cannot speak), which he gives to the king of Ireland as a wedding gift for him and Bran's sister Branwen. Later, Bran wages war on the Irish and is wounded in the foot or leg, and the cauldron is destroyed. He asks his followers to sever his head and take it back to Britain, and his head continues talking and keeps them company on their trip. The group lands on the island of Gwales (perhaps Grassholm), where they spend 80 years in a castle of joy and abundance, but finally they leave and bury Bran's head in London. This story has analogues in two other important Welsh texts: the Mabinogion tale Culhwch and Olwen, in which King Arthur's men must travel to Ireland to retrieve a magical cauldron, and the obscure poem The Spoils of Annwn, which speaks of a similar mystical cauldron sought by Arthur in the otherworldly land of Annwn.

The Welsh Romance Peredur son of Efrawg, based on Chrétien (or derived from a common original) but containing several prominent deviations, lacks a Grail. The character of the Fisher King appears (though he is not called such) and presents Peredur with a severed head on a platter. Peredur later learns he was related to that king, and that the severed head was that of his cousin, whose death he must avenge.

The location of the wound is of great importance to the legend. In most medieval stories, the mention of a wound in the groin or more commonly the "thigh" (such as the wounding of the ineffective suitor in Lanval from The Lais of Marie de France) is a euphemism for the physical loss of or grave injury to one's penis. In medieval times, acknowledging the actual type of wound was considered to rob a man of his dignity, thus the use of the substitute terms "groin" or "thigh", although any good medieval listener or reader would have known exactly the real nature of the wound. Such a wound was considered worse than actual death because it signaled the end of a man's ability to function in his primary purpose: to propagate his line. In the instance of the Fisher King, the wound negates his ability to honor his sacred charge.

Tons of Bran and Bloodraven stuff here, it seems clear. Even the thigh wound is accurate, while Bran has the leg (legs) injury. This Bran of Celtic myth has a cauldron the raises the dead, hmm, very interesting. And the dead cannot speak - is this a reference to Ghost? Who or what is Ghost, really?

The castration reminds me of Theon, but he's not the last of his line.

But leaving dark caves aside, what does this tell us about the Silver Sea Kingdoms? The Grail keeper idea reminds of Huzhor Amai, the last son of the Fisher Queens, who took to wife a Gipp, Zoqora, And Cymeri to unite these peoples and create the kingdom of Sarnor. What was the Grail they carried? Hard to say, perhaps that of peaceful advanced civilization, perhaps matriarchy itself (those two go hand in hand, because as the hound says - "all men are killers.") perhaps something in that library, or the entire library - all the knowledge of the ancient past. That's what we lost at Alexandria, and clearly Salosh is a direct analog to Alexandria and its library.

The Grail is interesting because it supposedly caught Jesus' blood from the cross. Just like Bloodstone. The bloodstone in ASOIAF is Grail like, because it contains the blood of the murdered goddess of the fire moon, the eight wanderer. I really think that's how George is using the concept of bloodstone - a stone that is created through blood sacrifice.

When the flaming piece of moon rock (red) plunged into the ocean (green), that's basically a recreation of the blood falling from the cross into the rock or the grail. Even though the bloodstone has been used for dark magic, it does have a redeeming quality, if my theory is right. I'm referring to the idea that Neds sword is Azor Ahai's sword, the one forged by the Bloodstone Emperor from the black rock which fell from space, this fictional bloodstone which is the cirpse of a moon goddess. That's why Neds sword drinks the sunlight, etc. It's made from this bloodstone Grail rock - and it was a terrible threat to humanity in the hands of the BSE. But later, after taking it from the BSE, the Last Hero uses it against the Others to save mankind - that's the redeeming "blood of the savior" effect there. Jesus was a moon goddess in ASOAIF.

We do need to have the Huzhor Amai - Azor Ahai discussion, but let's save that for my sequel to this essay :)

The two lakes near the Sarne are surely the remnants of the Silver Sea, but the womb of the world is a long way away - are you sure the womb of the world was a part of the Silver Sea?? That's highly significant if so - the Silver Sea would have been HUGE. And connected to the mother of mountains, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

I just wanted to say again that I think you're right to hit on the themes of matriarchy vs patriarchy. The Andals forsaking of the axe (I noticed the feminist connotations yesterday but wasn't sure if that was where you were going) in favor of the star may be dead on the money. The Andals represent the pinnacle of violent religious patriarchy (it's hard for me to think clearly about them because of my disgust). I think they are every bit as bad as the Ironborn, except that the Ironborn practice of thralldom and salt-wifery is far beyond anything the peasants can expect under Andal conquest. George took this from Roman culture. I believe, where slaves and prisoners of war had an established route to freedom and even citizenship. This was highly effective. As quality of life inside Roman borders was good, and enemies were quick to yield instead of die to the last man when defeated, because the POWs had hope of not being a slave in a mine for the rest of his life. Sons of salt wives can inherit, and children of thralls are Ironborn. Compare that to the Valyrian mines (the worst) or the disgusting Ghiscari (repugnant but QOL was better).

I digress, but I do believe the transition from matriarchal societies to patriarchal ones is one George is well aware of and is incorporating into his myth. That's what the eighth wanderer killing was all about - we lost the goddess of empowered femininity. The Ishtar. Maiden, mother, crone = sweet, chaste virgin; baby-maker; old woman. Those are the roles the Andals conceived of for women. You're a good little virgin, until you marry a man and start popping out kids. When you're dried up you get to be an old woman - sit in the corner and shut up. It's thoroughly patriarchal. How many women in ASOAIF do we have that don't fit into those categories? Where's the mistress? The female warrior? The female ruler? Danerys. Arya. Brienne. Asha. Arianne. Melissandre. None of these women fit the Andal deities, excepting Brienne's connection to the Warrior. The goddess we lost was their goddess, and since then, we've had nothing but violent male patriarchy. The blood betrayal. To see this idea represented in the Andals makes sense to me, especially if we are right that the COSW had a hand in shaping their religion.

I have more thoughts on the Joghos Nhai (to retype, thanks computer) but I will send this one in so it doesn't get eaten by the computer also.


Sent from my iPad

[LmL]

Addressing the dried up lakes we find in the east, and the sand sea that used to be Hyrkoon:

Firestorm. Big one. Some have pointed out that the heat from the moon explosion might light up the sky for a while, but no one is really sure what kind of effects this event would have, since we've really seen a small moon explode near a planet before on camera. But there may well have been one huge firestorm, or several smaller ones. The entire eastern part of Essos may have been heated up for a while. I'm still trying to track down the various impact spots, but all that wasteland in the red waste and Hyrkoon seems like a prime suspect. The water simply boils away in the great sand sea of old Hyrkoon - what's up with that? All those bones in the Bones mountains could be from a massive exodus, fleeing a Bloodstone Emperor reign of terror and widespread drought and anarchy, but so many bones of animals too almost makes it seem like a firestorm incinerated all of them at once.

You could be right that it is simply the corruption of the Shadow leeching westward.

Remember that after the Long Night ended, the annals of Yi Ti tell us that "The Great Empire was not reborn, for the restored world was a broken place where every tribe of men went its own way, fearful of all the others, and war and lust and murder endured, even to out present day." This is a key quote. The earth was significantly damaged. Not just darkened - there were likely earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, and firestorms. These large meteor impacts set off chain reactions of natural disasters. This is another reason why I think my moon destruction scenario fits what we know about the Long Night so well.

The earth was broken, and the damage seems the worst in the east, for all the reason you point out. The Silve Sea is gone. Hyrkoon is gone. The shrinking sea is shrinking, Bones in the Bones mountains, the red waste, the less fertile grasslands. "The earth was a broken place.." Yes it is, especially over there.