Red Crabs, Spiders and Conquerors - The Others revealed

[Dragon Seed]

Where do you get "white spider crabs" from. I don't see that term in the quotes, it just says

"spider crabs"

Are you talking about the crab embroidered on the flag?

[Blazfemur]

would just like to throw in that it's this scene, when davos and borrell are eating, that patchface refers to as his prophecy "under the sea....starfish soup...and all the serving men are crabs."

[LmL]

would just like to throw in that it's this scene, when davos and borrell are eating, that patchface refers to as his prophecy "under the sea....starfish soup...and all the serving men are crabs."

Ooh that’s a good catch, Blazfemur.

Hey, as an aside, when you make a funny joke, are you Blazhumerous?

ba-bum, CH

[Blazfemur]

Ooh that’s a good catch, Blazfemur.

Hey, as an aside, when you make a funny joke, are you Blazhumerous?

ba-bum, CH

...

[LmL]

Where do you get "white spider crabs" from. I don't see that term in the quotes, it just says

"spider crabs"

Are you talking about the crab embroidered on the flag?

“..Makes me feel half a cannibal.” His lordship gestured at the banner hanging above the cold black hearth. A spider crab was embroidered there, white on a grey-green field

[LmL]

...

It’s time for

/ His Frostbitten Majesty \ ({[The Wraithlord]})

to go, out with the old and in with the new.

\\\ The Blazhumerus ///

SKIN YOU ALIVE, TICKLE YOUR FUNNY BONE

​You’re welcome :cool4:

[Evolett]

Great parallels. Have you read TWOIAF? I do not have it at hand now, but there is more to draw parallels from.

However, I have two questions.

- Why is Crasters describing himself as a friend of the NW?

- In the light of your theory and your thoughts about the white walkers pun, how do you see the part of the NW oath that says "we are the watchers on the walls". Walls, not the Wall, not a wall?

I'm not through with TWOIAF yet. I've jumping around in the book, reading a few chapters here and there. What parallels have you found that may support this theory? Sounds like something I should look up :)

Craster is essentially a double agent who secures his position north of the wall by being helpful to the NW and 'bribing' the Others to leave him in peace. He can live his incestuous lifestyle without fear of repercussions, occasionally gets quality weapons from the NW in return for information. Mormont is not happy about this but the NW depends on the man for information as well as shelter and a safe haven when necessary. I wonder whether Craster benefits further benefits from his sacrifices to the Others besides not being attacked by them.

As to your question about the reference to Walls in the oath, I must admit to never really noticing it. Good question. I think Littlefinger’s dagger is probably right with his observation about the wall being both a physical and a magical defence system.

[Evolett]

would just like to throw in that it's this scene, when davos and borrell are eating, that patchface refers to as his prophecy "under the sea....starfish soup...and all the serving men are crabs."

I'm really happy you've brought this up because it was my investigation of that prophecy which led me to that passage in the scene in the first place. To puzzle out the prophecy, I first had to make sense of that scene and ended up with this theory. Following on that, I think I now know what starfish soup represents and of course, the serving men are 'crabs'. Still have to write that one up.

[Evolett]

- Why is Crasters describing himself as a friend of the NW?

He's not much of a double agent if He doesn't cozy up to both sides. He makes demonstrations of friendship to both, by providing sacrifices to the Others and support to NW rangers. Not that he is actually loyal to either, he's an opportunist looking after his own interests.

- In the light of your theory and your thoughts about the white walkers pun, how do you see the part of the NW oath that says "we are the watchers on the walls". Walls, not the Wall, not a wall?

You didn't ask me, but it's clearly stated that there is the physical wall of stone and ice, and the magical wall made of spells. The NW oath has a base in the idea that they do watch over both walls, even if they no longer have the means to maintain the magic.

A lot is made in this theory of the oddness of not simply saying "grand-daughter." This is a rather isolated island community, one needs only look at places like Newfoundland and Iceland to see how isolation leads to peculiarities of speech that over time become distinct languages. I just don't see this peculiarity as being significant.

The part about cannibalism is also very thin stew, IMO. How many Targs have over-identified with dragons in this series, or Lannisters with lions? Some small-time lord aggrandizing himself by overly identifying with his crab sigil is utterly unsurprising, his comments are easily dismissed as puffery or a badly told joke.

The insect-like hierarchy actually sounds rather plausible and if it were directly supported elsewhere in the text I could go along, but the recipe for a dinner entrée being a metaphor for that hierarchy? I'm not buying that part. The simpler explanation is that the human brain evolved to look for patterns in visual and auditory noise, in order to detect threats. We see sheep in clouds, tell stories about arrangements of stars that look like bulls or drinking ladles. This is just pattern recognition and imagination running amok.

I agree GRRM leaves little puzzles and inside jokes in the work. I also suspect he laughs his head off in private when he leaves a connect-the-dots puzzle with no actual solution, knowing that someone will superimpose a pattern he'd never thought of on the jumble of dots.

Actually, why shouldn't a list of ingredients serve as a metaphor, especially if the author wants to help observant readers to connect the dots? It's also a scene that one would normally fly over without paying much attention to and this is where the daughter's daughter comes into it. You may be right about queer habits and figures of speech maintained in isolated communities but the expression also serves as a recognisable trigger because it's rather odd. We've read so much about Craster and his daughter wives that the keyword calls a reader to attention. The bit about cannibalism baffled me somewhat until I discovered Nimble Dick's story about squishers. I left that out in the OP but mentioned it in answer to a post further up.

I agree with Lucifer means Lightbringer when he says that the author wouldn't set up puzzles with no solution. I can always follow a trail of breadcrumbs by identifying the right keywords in 'suspect' passages. I quickly come to a dead end if the keyword I choose is incorrect and am rewarded with further clues when I hit on the right ones. Some are more obvious than others but it does feel as though GRRM puts a lot of thought into setting up his puzzles. I may not not have deciphered everything correctly but I think the theory is close to what we can expect in the future. I really hope others will come up with more supporting evidence :)

[Modesty Lannister]

I'm not through with TWOIAF yet. I've jumping around in the book, reading a few chapters here and there. What parallels have you found that may support this theory? Sounds like something I should look up :)

Craster is essentially a double agent who secures his position north of the wall by being helpful to the NW and 'bribing' the Others to leave him in peace. He can live his incestuous lifestyle without fear of repercussions, occasionally gets quality weapons from the NW in return for information. Mormont is not happy about this but the NW depends on the man for information as well as shelter and a safe haven when necessary. I wonder whether Craster benefits further benefits from his sacrifices to the Others besides not being attacked by them.

As to your question about the reference to Walls in the oath, I must admit to never really noticing it. Good question. I think Littlefinger’s dagger is probably right with his observation about the wall being both a physical and a magical defence system.

Since Crasters is your link between the Others and normal men, the facts that he declares himself a friend of the NW and Mormont knowing that he sacrifices his sons should be taken into consideration for your theory to stand on two feet. Why is NW tolerating Crasters? For information? He never moves from his keep. He is too busy watching over his women to leave them.

And the Wall is magical, but it a wall. It is not walls. So, what walls? Blazfemur will remember his own excellent thread where a poster told us that behind Hadrian's wall lies another wall - Antonin's wall. Since GRRM got his inspiration from Hadrian's wall, is it a stretch to suppose he knows about Antonin's wall as well? Not really.

When you read the whole TWOIAF, you will find another place in the world where another huge structure stands separating the world of men from what lies beneath. But it is not a wall. You will find other references to people with webbed toes and other deformities. Etc. What we need to do here is establish a pattern. From that pattern, we may find reasons behind these phenomena.

[Sword of the Morgan]

First of all, nice job and a lot of work put into this. It's an interesting theory and parallel. I do think it's more likely that these things are unrelated, as I don't love the connects that are drawn, but it's something I had never seen before than it not totally crackpot, which is always enjoyable.

[Voice]

Evolett:

I would begin by saying "great minds think alike," but we've looked at this from completely different points of view, and considered the angles in completely different ways.

I came within an inch of including Sister Stew and Crab-lore in my theory, but didn't. I wanted to focus on the Old Nan angle, and the annals, and didn't feel like debating crabs=spiders in this universe. When my buddy Lucifer (ha! I love saying that lol) told me there was a thread in which someone developed an Other hierarchy, using the crab data, I was torn. I thought it was cool someone did it, and I wanted to read it, but I also felt some regret for not including my own spin on them when I posted my hierarchy.

I read your OP, and the version on your blog, and I must say, I'm glad I didn't include my crabology :D Your analysis is completely different than mine, yet we arrived at nearly identical conclusions. That's pretty amazing.

Every great hypothesis sounds crackpot at first, just look at heliocentrism! As data mounts, it becomes solid theory, then common knowledge. I think our unique perspectives strengthen one another. I am a linguist by trade and came to my conclusion based on analyzing the language used itself, word choice, sentence structure. The first clue for me came when Bran spoke "querulously" to Old Nan in Bran IV AGOT:

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”
“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.
“The Others,” Old Nan agreed.

The child corrected his elder. And she "agreed."

She described "The Others" yet said "white walkers." Bran, being the frustrated lordling he was at that moment, was not in the mood for one of Old Nan's senior moments.

This was the clue I picked up on upon my first read. After toiling on these interwebs, and having my distinction between "Others" and "white walkers" dismissed countless times, I thought I should re-read just to make sure I wasn't confusing something. These people seemed to know their stuff, they knew their quotes, and they were dismissing my ideas out of hand. It happens here. A lot. LOL, don't let it get to you.

Anyway, the subsequent re-reads happened...and happened. Every time the distinction stood out clearer and clearer for me.

It is really cool to see someone come to the same conclusion by studying the crabs themselves. That, was definitely not where I was coming from. I was going to include them, and the same quotes you've used coincidentally, to demonstrate that we are being set up for a spidery invasion. I was going to supplement that piece with the real life examples I ended up using in later comments on my thread. We have crabs that thrive in some of the hottest, and coldest, places on Earth. In fact, no other creature survives in both at once, like they do. They are quite fascinating. Anyway, back to your OP...

I never considered the attack on Ser Waymar to have been a training exercise, but damn! that really makes sense with their behavior, the silent signal, and the joking and laughter! Jon recreates the entire scene in the training yard at Castle Black if you think about it. I still lean toward that entire party being white walkers, but I like the analogy with rangers. It's one I've suggested many times in Heresy, but again, in a much different way. I've suggested that the term "First Ranger" is an honorary title, and homage, to the first man who ever ranged into the cold dead lands of the Others. He would have been the "first hero" of the party of 13 that eventually dwindled down to "the last hero." I think that "first hero" might be Coldhands. But anyway, I again digress...

To your OP, hats off, Ser or Lady... I must admit it is hard for me to follow why one crab refers to one class of Other, versus another, but I do not dismiss that they do. I've been in your shoes for too long, and explained my reasoning, up, down, and sideways, for the past year in Heresy and I know how frustrating it is when people don't see the big picture because they are too set in their ways to have an open mind. I'll read it again until I can connect the dots as you have. Until then, I am simply amazed you've come to see the same picture as me, but by such different means. :cheers:

[LmL]

This was the clue I picked up on upon my first read. After toiling on these interwebs, and having my distinction between "Others" and "white walkers" dismissed countless times, I thought I should re-read just to make sure I wasn't confusing something. These people seemed to know their stuff, they knew their quotes, and they were dismissing my ideas out of hand. It happens here. A lot. LOL, don't let it get to you.

I just wanted to acknowledge this. I myself have been tremendously lucky - my first thread struck a chord and took off right away. But I don’t know how many times I see a really good thread that gets NO attention, or only a few “that doesn’t mean anything” trolls that dismiss a well researched theory out of hand without actually refuting any of the OP’s points. It really gets me down sometimes. Occasionally, I stumble on a theory from a year ago that got one or two comments and died - and I’m reading it going “this is awesome!” In those cases i am always happy to resurrect them so they get a fresh glance. Anyway. I do want to agree with the sentiment, for anyone who puts time into a theory and doesn’t get the response they’re hoping for - don’t let it get you down.

And don’t afraid to pm a few people you’re cool with and say “hey, would you come take a look at my thread?” I certainly did that, and it helped get things off the ground. There ARE some really smart people and some really great thinkers here on the board, and once a thread is discovered, the conversation can be very rewarding. :)

I’m glad you two Other-lovers are finding each other’s work interesting, as they are both well done and yes, seem to have come to the same place via different routes.

I can see why VotFM stayed away from the crabs analogy - i think it’s clearly there, but it’s a weird one and hard to explain. But mad props for finding it, Evolett, no doubt. There might be a way to improve the method of laying it out, maybe a teeny tiny T-bar chart or whatever.. it’s always a challenge when explaining Martin’s more subtle puzzles not to sound like a crazy person. I was worried about that a bit - “and then there was this moon, and it exploded and looked like dragons, because Lucifer is a dragon and it also means light bringer and he wasn’t a bad guy but Azor Ahai was a bad guy and he CAUSED the Long Night and-“ you get the idea. I think that’s how my first draft sounded. :eek:

[LmL]

He would have been the "first hero" of the party of 13 that eventually dwindled down to "the last hero." I think that "first hero" might be Coldhands. But anyway, I again digress...

I think I am becoming a big fan of coldhands as one of the LH’s companions. It makes sense... when he says he’s been waiting for Bran, I think he’s been WAITING for Bran, like ten thousand years waiting. Like, WAITING. Your iPhone ain’t gonna pass the time, knowwhadimean? When he says that either he or Bloodraven is “your monster, Brandon Stark” I note the emphasis on the full name and wonder if Bran is the fulfillment of an ancient Stark pact of some kind, one which involved Coldhands waiting for Bran.

Related Coldhands / LH idea: the 13 of them died, not accidentally, but intentionally. They sacrificed themselves specifically to be resurrected as Coldhands-style, conscious wights, because no one else could fight the Others or even stand the cold to get near them. By turning themselves into wights, maybe with the help of greenseers (not sure who else could make a wight apart from an Other except a cotf greenseer), they became the perfect weapons to go north and fight the Others.

Remember when BR cautions Bran against trying to raise the dead? Doesn’t that mean it’s possible, but horrific? Kind of makes you think. Maybe the first Others were created by greasers trying to raise the dead, or perhaps the greenseers made the 13 to fight the Others but later regretted it, leading to the NK story where a LC had to be cast down.

[Voice]

I’m glad you two Other-lovers are finding each other’s work interesting, as they are both well done and yes, seem to have come to the same place via different routes.

I'm not ready to pick out curtains or anything, but yeah! Great OP, and I appreciate you pointing it out.

It really is crazy to see someone arrive at your house in a hot air balloon though, or maybe a smuggler's ship would be a better analogy... Completely different routes.

“and then there was this moon, and it exploded and looked like dragons, because Lucifer is a dragon and it also means light bringer and he wasn’t a bad guy but Azor Ahai was a bad guy and he CAUSED the Long Night and-“

Ahh, so there is a cliff's notes version! Busted LmL :D

[Voice]

I think I am becoming a big fan of coldhands as one of the LH’s companions. It makes sense... when he says he’s been waiting for Bran, I think he’s been WAITING for Bran, like ten thousand years waiting. Like, WAITING. Your iPhone ain’t gonna pass the time, knowwhadimean? When he says that either he or Bloodraven is “your monster, Brandon Stark” I note the emphasis on the full name and wonder if Bran is the fulfillment of an ancient Stark pact of some kind, one which involved Coldhands waiting for Bran.

Don't wanna hijack Evolette's thread the way you and Mother of Dragons hijacked mine LOL :D but yeah Coldhands was killed "long ago," per Leaf, who was wandering around the realm of men back when Sheepstealer was roaming the skies.... Her kind apparently live well over a hundred years. And who knows how long their greenseers can survive in a weirwood throne. "Long ago" to her is a helluva long time ago!

One thing I didn't mention is that I think the 13th, and last, "hero" might well have been their "First Builder" aka, Bran the Builder, who was suffering from split-personality disorder, and became Night's King... But, as you know... that's another theory :D

Related Coldhands / LH idea: the 13 of them died, not accidentally, but intentionally. They sacrificed themselves specifically to be resurrected as Coldhands-style, conscious wights, because no one else could fight the Others or even stand the cold to get near them. By turning themselves into wights, maybe with the help of greenseers (not sure who else could make a wight apart from an Other except a cotf greenseer), they became the perfect weapons to go north and fight the Others.

Yes! Willingly sacrificed... seduced you might say... I say, by the pale woman. I'm somewhat in the minority on this, but I don't think the cotf are in any way involved in the creation of Others, white walkers, or wights, ice magic, you name it. For me, they only deal with earth, and things that grow from it naturally...

Remember when BR cautions Bran against trying to raise the dead? Doesn’t that mean it’s possible, but horrific? Kind of makes you think. Maybe the first Others were created by greasers trying to raise the dead, or perhaps the greenseers made the 13 to fight the Others but later regretted it, leading to the NK story where a LC had to be cast down.

It might, or it could have been an admonition against folly, like Maester Luwin's remarks on the Valyrian steel link. Greenseers deal with life, nature, memory. The Others, seem to represent the opposite. I think they are a creation of First Men sacrilege, tampering, etc... rather than cotf/greenseer... but I could very well be wrong.

[Evolett]

@Voice of the First Men and Lucifer means Lightbringer

First of all, thank you so much for all the encouragement! I’m a relative newcomer to both the book series and literary analysis / interpretation (Macbeth was the last work of literature I had to deal with and that was about 35 years ago, lol). It is disheartening when established users with thousands of posts under their belts dismiss work out of hand without offering alternative thoughts. Sometimes makes me want to retreat to the safety and solitude of my blog but that won’t serve to develop a theory further. The funny thing is, the entire puzzle came together as soon as I read that passage about the crabs – that was a first for me, especially since I was looking for something else entirely. After that, it was only a matter of digging out available evidence and compiling it into a coherent theory. That said, it’s by no means perfect but I do think it’s plausible enough to warrant discussion as well as to support other theories and speculation – the Boltons as ‘half-Others’ comes to mind here, for instance.

Duty calls now. I’ll get back to your respective posts later today. Thanks again J

[Evolett]

Since Crasters is your link between the Others and normal men, the facts that he declares himself a friend of the NW and Mormont knowing that he sacrifices his sons should be taken into consideration for your theory to stand on two feet. Why is NW tolerating Crasters? For information? He never moves from his keep. He is too busy watching over his women to leave them.

And the Wall is magical, but it a wall. It is not walls. So, what walls? Blazfemur will remember his own excellent thread where a poster told us that behind Hadrian's wall lies another wall - Antonin's wall. Since GRRM got his inspiration from Hadrian's wall, is it a stretch to suppose he knows about Antonin's wall as well? Not really.

When you read the whole TWOIAF, you will find another place in the world where another huge structure stands separating the world of men from what lies beneath. But it is not a wall. You will find other references to people with webbed toes and other deformities. Etc. What we need to do here is establish a pattern. From that pattern, we may find reasons behind these phenomena.

You make 3 points which you say are relevant to the notion of a hierarchy / existence of spiders and feel they need expanding on for the theory to stand. I’ve given this some thought meanwhile and with the exception of a further look at the passages in the World Book, I don’t intend to research those issues now. Both the question of Craster’s relationship to the NW and the question of why the oath mentions Walls will take me down new paths of speculation that I cannot justify at present. I feel that will only serve to make this theory even more complex than it already is.

At this point, I would like to avoid getting embroiled in ‘theories within theories’.

Consider this example of one train of thought I have concerning Craster, his sons and his relationship with the NW:

Craster’s birth and origins are unclear. There are conflicting accounts of who is parents actually are so there is nothing conclusive we can latch on to in terms of ancestry. We know the latter is of great importance in the story because it helps us to make deductions concerning specific characters. We also cannot be sure that those sons he sacrifices are really his own sons. Old Nan claims wildling women breed with Others to spawn half-human children. What if Craster’s whole set up, including the supposed incestuous relationship with his daughters is nothing but a ruse to disguise the fact that he actually regularly sacrifices his wives to the Others? Do his wives and daughters breed for the Others? Are the brothers referred to by Gilly actually brothers in that they have an Other for a father? I do see this as a possibility. Where did Craster’s remaining wives go to after the mutiny ended? They refused to go to the Wall and I doubt they went to Hardhome. They seemed to have a specific destination in mind. I can also assume that there has always been ‘a Craster’ beyond the wall and that the NW once knew this and tolerated it because it was part of the forgotten details of a pact that ended the Long Night. I can even take this further and tie it in to Borrell’s dinner. Incidentally, I believe Craster did leave his Keep occasionally but proving that requires more research as well.

In contrast to the supporting evidence gathered so far, all of this is pure speculation and will only serve to confound the theory. There is no way I can include this.

As to the mention of Walls in the oath, I’m not sure why you think this relevant to a hierarchy. Double walls are a feature in Westeros. A number of castles, notably Winterfell have two concentric walls. I have no idea how this might relate to the Wall or to the Oath. Do you have some ideas to share on this?

For now, I accept the ‘friendship’ between the NW and Craster at face value. I’ll certainly research the World Book for more supporting material as you have suggested. That seems the most promising avenue at this point.

[Voice]

Since Crasters is your link between the Others and normal men, the facts that he declares himself a friend of the NW and Mormont knowing that he sacrifices his sons should be taken into consideration for your theory to stand on two feet. Why is NW tolerating Crasters? For information? He never moves from his keep. He is too busy watching over his women to leave them.

And the Wall is magical, but it a wall. It is not walls. So, what walls? Blazfemur will remember his own excellent thread where a poster told us that behind Hadrian's wall lies another wall - Antonin's wall. Since GRRM got his inspiration from Hadrian's wall, is it a stretch to suppose he knows about Antonin's wall as well? Not really.

When you read the whole TWOIAF, you will find another place in the world where another huge structure stands separating the world of men from what lies beneath. But it is not a wall. You will find other references to people with webbed toes and other deformities. Etc. What we need to do here is establish a pattern. From that pattern, we may find reasons behind these phenomena.

I've noticed your excellent criticism here, as well as elsewhere. Perhaps it was the Astronomy thread? I think it was... Anyway, I'd appreciate your unflinching stare over at my Hierarchy of the Others thread when you have the time. My angle does not utilize Craster, nor crabs, yet I've arrived at the same conclusion as Evolett here. All words need not be kind :cheers:

[Voice]

Consider this example of one train of thought I have concerning Craster, his sons and his relationship with the NW:

Craster’s birth and origins are unclear. There are conflicting accounts of who is parents actually are so there is nothing conclusive we can latch on to in terms of ancestry. We know the latter is of great importance in the story because it helps us to make deductions concerning specific characters. We also cannot be sure that those sons he sacrifices are really his own sons. Old Nan claims wildling women breed with Others to spawn half-human children. What if Craster’s whole set up, including the supposed incestuous relationship with his daughters is nothing but a ruse to disguise the fact that he actually regularly sacrifices his wives to the Others? Do his wives and daughters breed for the Others? Are the brothers referred to by Gilly actually brothers in that they have an Other for a father? I do see this as a possibility. Where did Craster’s remaining wives go to after the mutiny ended? They refused to go to the Wall and I doubt they went to Hardhome. They seemed to have a specific destination in mind. I can also assume that there has always been ‘a Craster’ beyond the wall and that the NW once knew this and tolerated it because it was part of the forgotten details of a pact that ended the Long Night. I can even take this further and tie it in to Borrell’s dinner. Incidentally, I believe Craster did leave his Keep occasionally but proving that requires more research as well.

In contrast to the supporting evidence gathered so far, all of this is pure speculation and will only serve to confound the theory. There is no way I can include this.

As to the mention of Walls in the oath, I’m not sure why you think this relevant to a hierarchy. Double walls are a feature in Westeros. A number of castles, notably Winterfell have two concentric walls. I have no idea how this might relate to the Wall or to the Oath. Do you have some ideas to share on this?

For now, I accept the ‘friendship’ between the NW and Craster at face value. I’ll certainly research the World Book for more supporting material as you have suggested. That seems the most promising avenue at this point.

Wall vs Walls makes no matter (I think Bran the Builder simply consolidated and connected the watchers and walls of the north into the Night's Watch and the Wall), but you might be interested to learn that Craster is the name of a fishing village on the Northumbrian coast of England. That fishing village is known for their herron-curing. Outside of Craster's Keep we find some fish curing as well. Craster is a red herring :D