Yet another balanced review of Stannis [Book and Show spoilers]

[Saturno]

Now the wildlings are safe behind the wall and instead of fighting they get to stay safe and Jon will surely give them place to live in the unmanned castles like in the books.

This is a problem, right? First of all how the seven hells did the wildlings cross the wall? When this happened? My impression was that only the wildling leaders were in the Wall, and as prisoners. And how safe can they be? Why on hell would Mance in his last conversation with Jon not asking for please let the wildlings live in the castles or something like that? I really don't see him dying as some kind of cunning plan to stop Stannis from reaching the wildlings.

The Iron Bank of Braavos haven't given him full support yet so he can't hire as many he would like. He still needs the Northern army.

And it seems that all the sellswords look exactly like random soldiers from the Stormlands...

[ni2tre]

This is a problem, right? First of all how the seven hells did the wildlings cross the wall? When this happened? My impression was that only the wildling leaders were in the Wall, and as prisoners. And how safe can they be? Why on hell would Mance in his last conversation with Jon not asking for please let the wildlings live in the castles or something like that? I really don't see him dying as some kind of cunning plan to stop Stannis from reaching the wildlings.

And it seems that all the sellswords look exactly like random soldiers from the Stormlands...

I don't remember quite well didn't Stannis capture more than just some leaders of the wildlings in ASOS? If he did then this probably happened off screen.

[Mark the Red]

I enjoyed this episodes portayal of Stannis. Still a ways to go, but they certainly helped redeem him in the eyes of most viewers by:

(a) Not killing all the Wildlings (baby steps for D&D people)

(b ) Asking Jon to negotiate to have Mance kneel; shows he trusts Jon and believes him honorable. i.e., shows he has a good judge of character, as most of the current Nights Watch leadership believes Jon to be a scoundrel. We the viewers know who is right and wrong in this debate.

(c ) Is committed to free the North from the Boltons (Ironmen? - not sure in TV-Westeros whether Moat Cailin was the last of the Ironborn).

(d) Clearly would prefer if Mance did kneel; not just for military reasons.

(e) Shireen still being compassionate / moral whereas Selyse is enjoying the burning. This shows indirectly that Shireen clearly did not take after her mother and the Baratheons are not all bad as people (repeat: baby steps for D&D people)

I never bought into the utopian view of Stannis as a leader often stated on this thread. I find him to be harsh and uncompromising as a person, and certainly not someone I would want to be serving under in the enlisted ranks of any military, medieval or otherwise. He strikes me as a General Douglas Haig style military commander; perfectly willing to lose 50000 men just to move the front a few miles forward.

But I 100% agree with all Stannis the Mannis fans that given the (3) serious contenders for the Iron Throne at this point: Danny, Tommen and Stannis that its not even a fair competition. Stannis would be so much better a ruler than the others, for the simple reason that despite his harsh brooding personality, Stannis is ultimately a very spartan, willful, deliberate and strong person. No king in the middle ages would have lasted very long if they were actually anything like what most coddled millenials would consider a good king (i.e., Jasmine's dad )

I am glad that the show writers gave Mance that "better than previous 100 years of kings" line supporting what I wrote.

[Wendel Shoemaker]

I took it as Mance would not bend the knee, because he wanted to stay strong in front of his people. He wanted to show them that he would never bend the knee, because he was a free person. He wanted them to keep their freedom and be able to choose what they want to do, not be forced into something. He wanted the Wildlings to remain strong, despite knowing some of them would go across the wall.

[ADanceWithCats]

My take on the OPs title was that it was meant in humour (or sarcastic humour to be more precise). :)

Yegods, if I got Poe'd Law, then my apologies to the OP!

[Ser Creighton]

Why doesn't Mance's reasoning not make any sense? With Mance burning, Stannis knows he has no chance of making the Wildlings join him and that's what Mance wanted no? He wanted to get behind that wall and not have to fight anymore (atleast until winter comes).

Mance Rayder did a great sacrifice by accepting to get burned just so his people wouldn't have to fight for this southern king AND he kept their values aswell by not making them kneel to anyone. Now the wildlings are safe behind the wall and instead of fighting they get to stay safe and Jon will surely give them place to live in the unmanned castles like in the books.

As for Stannis, I'm annoyed that the cart speech is not there definitly. Maybe it will be said later I don't know.

That is not what happened in that scene at all. Mance opens up saying he respects Stannis, and thinks Stannis is bold. Stannis is offering a sweetheart of a deal as Jon points. Mance' people are not south of the wall as Jon also points out. Mance had planned on taking the North, now Stannis wants them to do just that but with him leading instead, and he is offering land to them, offering to let all of them through the wall, and offering to make them citizens.

Mance says no because gosh he doesn't want to lose their respect. So Jon points out that tens of thousands of Wildlings will die north of the wall. Jon also points out that Mance' entire purpose in uniting the Wildlings was to save them from the Others. Mance still says no, reason being cause he is free to make his own mistakes. Look there are mistakes, and their are fucking mistakes. A simple physical gesture to the guy you say you respect, in order to save the Wildlings and get sprinkles on top of the deal suddenly became to hard for him to do. His reason is he does not want to lose respect by saving the Wildlings from the Others by bending the knee, and basically states he is free to fuck up as badly as he likes.

Guess what the Wildlings are going to die unless they find a little flexablity. That's why in the books the Wildlings were like cool, lets bend our knees, you know so everyone we know and care about does not die north of the wall, over a principle. Oh we won't take orders from a southerner. You are trying to move to the south, and clearly you got no problems taking orders from someone raised south of the wall, because Mance was raised south of the wall and spent the better part of his Night's Watch career killing Wildlings.

The entire scene is absurd and you know Stannis clearly did the Wildlings a favor by burning a character who suddenly transformed into a massive idiot. The man cared about the Wildlings so much that he was willing to let them all die so he didn't lose respect. Yes I am sure they would be like "Wait he is letting us south of the wall, and giving us land, and we are legalized and all we have to do is what we were going to do anyway? Yeah Mance we totally don't respect you for bringing us this great deal. Yeah we are going to stay north with the Others.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Am I the only one who thinks book!Mance would've bent the knee if given half a chance, only to start plotting revenge on Stannis the moment he stands up?

He could have done it for his people. To be fair, I didn't see his death as heroic here. He acted like a proud selfish dick. He acted like Stannis in a bad day would have acted... :dunno: "Yes, I know me bending the knee would save hundreds but I would never bend the knee because me-me-me". Idiot.

Why does Stannis need the wildlings in the first place? I thought he had hired as many sellswords as he could with the Iron Bank's loan he got last season.

Good catch. And yes, makes little sense.

I suppose this is the case of the show going to the same place as the books, despite they make changes on the road. Stannis NEEDED the wildlings and the North in the books. In the show, he only needs their support.

[Lord Buckethead]

Stannis burning Mance in this scenario goes a little something like this. Someone breaks into your house to steal some chocolate cake. You catch said person in the process of stealing said cake. Rather than calling the police, you give the person an out. You'll give the person the cake they wanted in the first place, but in return, they have to thank you, and aid you in stealing an additional chocolate cake, which given the Wildling invasion plan, which includes killings lots of Southerners in order to get south of the Wall, doesn't seem like a terribly unreasonable arrangement.

Maybe if Stannis had just asked the wildlings to support him in his battles - as hired swords - Mance might have accepted? But that was not what Stannis asked of him. He asked him to bend the knee, he asked him to accept Stannis as his sovereign/King. This was not something Mance as a free man could accept, and particularly not on behalf of all the wildlings, who generally detest the idea of bending their knees to anyone.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Maybe if Stannis had just asked the wildlings to support him in his battles - as hired swords - Mance might have accepted? But that was not what Stannis asked of him. He asked him to bend the knee, he asked him to accept Stannis as his sovereign/King. This was not something Mance as a free man could accept, and particularly not on behalf of all the wildlings, who generally detest the idea of bending their knees to anyone.

I'd agree with you if we had been talking about some random wildling with very black/white notions about being free: "kneel bad. free good". Mance is not random wildling, he was their leader and guide, and he saw himself as such. He never used his title for his personal vanity but because he wanted to save and protect them: he put them and their needs over his own ego, unlike many Westerosi leaders who get instant boners as soon as someone calls them "King".

And his reaction is exactly what many people believe Stannis to be like: he NEVER bends. That is not true. Stannis does bend when he has too. That's how he has developed and grown as a character. That's why he's touring the North being received in feasts and flattering daughters. Because HE KNOWS HE NEEDS to win the Northern to his cause.

[Ser Creighton]

He could have done it for his people. To be fair, I didn't see his death as heroic here. He acted like a proud selfish dick. He acted like Stannis in a bad day would have acted... :dunno: "Yes, I know me bending the knee would save hundreds but I would never bend the knee because me-me-me". Idiot.

Good catch. And yes, makes little sense.

I suppose this is the case of the show going to the same place as the books, despite they make changes on the road. Stannis NEEDED the wildlings and the North in the books. In the show, he only needs their support.

Exactly about the selfish part. As for why Stannis needs the Wildlings, he said he still didn't have enough Men to take Winterfell on the show. He has the Gold Company but he has to fight the North and the Freys, so not really innacurate. I wonder if Jon still hooks him up.

[SerMixalot]

Been a while since I read the books, but what did Mance expect would happen once south of the wall, wouldn't bending the knee become inevitable to receive the benefit of the defense of the wall? He was essentially invading the south with the entire north, men women and children. The wildings had never had a successful invasion to the south, let alone one burdened with the defenseless. How could he expect to live south of the wall without bending the knee? Makes his pride argument even less logical

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Been a while since I read the books, but what did Mance expect would happen once south of the wall, wouldn't bending the knee become inevitable to receive the benefit of the defense of the wall? He was essentially invading the south with the entire north, men women and children. The wildings had never had a successful invasion to the south, let alone one burdened with the defenseless. How could he expect to live south of the wall without bending the knee? Makes his pride argument even less logical

He kinda discuss it with Jon when he's sent to parley. Mance very much says they would make their own rules. I think Mance is smart enough to know he cannot control the wildlings once they're out of his reach, nor he seemed very concerned about it. He probably was hoping they would survive on their own and counting on their own strength because to be fair, mostly Northerns would be after them as soon as they were aware of their presence.

[Thelastactionhero]

Yegods, if I got Poe'd Law, then my apologies to the OP!

Yeah, it was sort of meant as a playful joke regarding the polarizing and emotional effect Stannis has on the fandom. I do try to view him as objectively as I can though, as it is easy to fall into the trap of whitewashing a character you've been attatched to in a book series you've been reading since high school.

[protar]

I feel that Stannis' portrayal was fair here. This is essentially how it went down in the books - and in fact in the books Stannis doesn't even give Mance a chance to kneel IIRC. He was a deserter of the NW so that was that so far as Stannis was concerned. If they do his conquest of the Boltons right, then Stannis could get a lot of unsullied fans this season. The real problem is that there's just this overall feeling that the show wants you to think Stannis is evil, what with the villainous music that plays every time he's on screen.

EDIT: For example his arrival on the wall, rather than being scored to a heroic reprise of the Baratheon theme is scored with his standard Lord of Light theme. His arrival is not portrayed as a good thing.

[stannisismyking]

I feel that Stannis' portrayal was fair here. This is essentially how it went down in the books - and in fact in the books Stannis doesn't even give Mance a chance to kneel IIRC. He was a deserter of the NW so that was that so far as Stannis was concerned. If they do his conquest of the Boltons right, then Stannis could get a lot of unsullied fans this season. The real problem is that there's just this overall feeling that the show wants you to think Stannis is evil, what with the villainous music that plays every time he's on screen.

EDIT: For example his arrival on the wall, rather than being scored to a heroic reprise of the Baratheon theme is scored with his standard Lord of Light theme. His arrival is not portrayed as a good thing.

Has the Baratheon theme ever been played with Stannis? I can't even think what the "Baratheon theme" is though. I can only ever associate him with LoL. I don't find that theme villanous, though it is kind of "woo woo" so I suppose I see why other people might consider it villainous.

[protar]

Has the Baratheon theme ever been played with Stannis? I can't even think what the "Baratheon theme" is though. I can only ever associate him with LoL. I don't find that theme villanous, though it is kind of "woo woo" so I suppose I see why other people might consider it villainous.

This is the Baratheon theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWBZDYiqXKE

Or it might be more accurate to call it the King's theme. It reprised briefly during Tommen's coronation, but other than that it hasn't seen much use post season 1, as the only Baratheon action we've had since season 2 is Stannis (who D+D seems to think is evil and not worthy of such a glorious theme tune.).

[stannisismyking]

This is the Baratheon theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWBZDYiqXKE

Or it might be more accurate to call it the King's theme. It reprised briefly during Tommen's coronation, but other than that it hasn't seen much use post season 1, as the only Baratheon action we've had since season 2 is Stannis (who D+D seems to think is evil and not worthy of such a glorious theme tune.).

But why start using it for Stannis all of a sudden in S4 if it's never been used for him before? He does fight under the banners of the LoL. He might not be a "believer" but it is part of his schtick (in the books as well).

[protar]

But why start using it for Stannis all of a sudden in S4 if it's never been used for him before? He does fight under the banners of the LoL. He might not be a "believer" but it is part of his schtick (in the books as well).

Because it's the Baratheon theme, it would have been symbolic of the return of the rightful king (whether you think he's the rightful king or not (though going by your name it seems you do) that's how he sees himself.). I just think that the LoL theme tune really paints Stannis as a villain. People are accustomed to musical queues indicating certain things.

[stannisismyking]

Because it's the Baratheon theme, it would have been symbolic of the return of the rightful king (whether you think he's the rightful king or not (though going by your name it seems you do) that's how he sees himself.). I just think that the LoL theme tune really paints Stannis as a villain. People are accustomed to musical queues indicating certain things.

Yeah I do think he's the rightful king - not that I think he'll necessarily win the Throne or anything - but I don't see it as a villainous theme myself. I thought the charge of his cavalry in 4.10 was very mmmm...stirring. :blushing:

[Stag_legion]

The Mance burning was the first and only accurate burning they've done (with respect to Stannis' motivation) so I don't know why you think people would be freaking out.

My problem is that there didn't seem to be much character development. By cutting every piece of their conversation involving the Others and omitting the 'cart before the horse' speech he might as well be at the same place he was back on Dragonstone, just with greater resources.

The way he talked about Robb was a tad manipulative, too.

In the book stannis wanted mance burned not because he didn't bend the knee, instead it was because mance was a traitor. That's not the same motivation.