[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIV - North remembers

[ADanceWithCats]

I think what they are saying is that they don't care for quiet, introspective Sansa - which is a problem of it's own - and are trying to make her more aggressive and controlling.They are completely rewriting Sansa which could be seen as gutting the character but I suspect D&D would say they are making her better.

I think that's unfair to D&D. From the TWOW Alayne chapter, in the books she is also becoming more aggressive and controlling eh, extroverted and self-possessed would be the adjectives I'd use, for both the show and the books. And it seems that the evolution is as rapid as in the show.

[Colonel Green]

How so? She's betrothed to Harry Hardying. He doesn't worship the old gods, he's not going to marry in front of the heart tree and she's not outed as Sansa because she is wanted by the crown for regicide. There are far more obstacles for Sansa in the books that are handwaved in the show.

Why could they not marry in front of the heart tree, if it was expedient? If it's possible for a person married under the Faith to then enter into an equally legal union under the Old Gods, that's a marriage law loophole you could drive a truck through, and Baelish, of all people, would be eager to exploit it.

Moreover, if Sansa's marriage could be so readily disregarded, Robb and Catelyn would not have reacted to it the way they did.

[LastoftheStarks]

Well here's to hoping she does't marry Ramsay, or at least doesn't consummate this one either.

The whole thing does provide a number of interesting possibilities/dynamics, but it also upsets at least 1 if not 2 of my favorite scenes in Dance of Dragons that carry the books' storyline forward: that Sansa will marry Harry the Heir, likely resulting in the Eyrie rising up to reclaim Winterfell, and Wyman Manderly's discovery that Rickon Stark is still alive.

One thing this deviation does give us though is a chance for Sansa to learn that it was Ramsay Bolton who was responsible for the massacre at Winterfell, and that Bran and Rickon are still alive. I'm guessing that she finds this out from Theon, and that she may have something to do with Manderly learning this, and having a secret meeting with Davos while at Winterfell instead of White Harbour. Producing Rickon still has the effect of handing Winterfell back to the Starks, since Rickon's claim would supercede Sansa's.

It will also be interesting to see what happens if Sansa and Theon flee to Stannis, and Brienne and Pod cross their paths...she swore to protect Sansa, and to kill Stannis, and while she is incredibly hardheaded, may come to realize those two things are at odds.

[LastoftheStarks]

If Sansa's marriage could be so readily disregarded, Robb and Catelyn would not have reacted to it the way they did.

They probably reacted the way the did because they figured Tyrion would consummate the marriage, that Sansa would be miserable, and that trying to free her would be that much more complicated.

I think people are dwelling on this too much though; Tyrion was sentenced to death and has disappeared, and if she says the marriage was never consummated, I think that is more or less all she has to say. Roose Bolton shouldn't have a hard time convincing a septon or whoever to agree and perform the ceremony. Like someone else said, these are the people in charge, and they make the rules, so there really isn't anything to stop them.

It does raise the question though...under the circumstances Sansa left Kings Landing, how Cersei will react to this?

[LastoftheStarks]

People keep bringing up Jon not telling Stannis Bran is alive....but isn't Jon unaware that Bran is alive, both in the show and the books? Doesn't Bran make Samwell promise not to tell anyone, especially Jon, because he knows Jon would come after him and probably bring him back to Castle Black?

[lojzelote]

People keep bringing up Jon not telling Stannis Bran is alive....but isn't Jon unaware that Bran is alive, both in the show and the books? Doesn't Bran make Samwell promise not to tell anyone, especially Jon, because he knows Jon would come after him and probably bring him back to Castle Black?

He knows in the show. Can't find it, but this article talks about it.

[Colonel Green]

They probably reacted the way the did because they figured Tyrion would consummate the marriage, that Sansa would be miserable, and that trying to free her would be that much more complicated.

That was part of it, but they also explicitly talk about it as a political problem, and they consider the legality of the union airtight -- hence, why their only choice is to disinherit her.

People keep bringing up Jon not telling Stannis Bran is alive....but isn't Jon unaware that Bran is alive, both in the show and the books? Doesn't Bran make Samwell promise not to tell anyone, especially Jon, because he knows Jon would come after him and probably bring him back to Castle Black?

In the books. In the show Jon knows. Don't you remember the whole "let's go find Bran at Craster's Keep" jaunt last season?

[Lord Damian]

Something struck me. Sometimes, the titles to the epsiodes can have equal meaning to two or more storylines. The Children last year, Tyrion to Tywin, Bran who is a child and the Children of the Forrest. etc. Episode 6, is "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken". We know, Dorne must be in this for sure but what if this is the episode that Sansa, who inevitably will suffer some abuse or assualt. This could also have a meaning in this for her. Even though it is not on the synopsis, it might very well be in the episode. and it is mid-season time that Alfie Allen has stated. What are the thoughts?

[Grail King]

He knows in the show. Can't find it, but this article talks about it.

It's in the episode where he and Sam are talking about Craster's keep, just before locke comes in.

[Grail King]

Something struck me. Sometimes, the titles to the epsiodes can have equal meaning to two or more storylines. The Children last year, Tyrion to Tywin, Bran who is a child and the Children of the Forrest. etc. Episode 6, is "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken". We know, Dorne must be in this for sure but what if this is the episode that Sansa, who inevitably will suffer some abuse or assualt. This could also have a meaning in this for her. Even though it is not on the synopsis, it might very well be in the episode. and it is mid-season time that Alfie Allen has stated. What are the thoughts?

I was thinking the same thing, when I saw that.

If we see Sophie in the credits then maybe.

[ADanceWithCats]

That was part of it, but they also explicitly talk about it as a political problem, and they consider the legality of the union airtight -- hence, why their only choice is to disinherit her.

Yes, but context. When they discussed that, Sansa was a hostage in King's Landing, and they fully expected that in a month, she'd be pregnant and in ten months, she'd have Tyrion's child - and so a Lannister would be in line for the Winterfell succession. Now that's a change that's not so easily waved away as a word or a piece of paper. Especially since, unlike Joffrey, they were not the baby-murdering types.

e: ^^I think that's more E5, "Reek remains under Ramsay's control" or something like this.

e2: it's like, Cat and Robb had to consider the worst-case scenario, because at that point, there were powerful interests in favour of upholding the marriage, i.e. the Lannisters. But the circumstances changed.

[Grail King]

I think Sansa will run into Podrick ( he was not seen at the inn left b4 Brienne went to Sansa ), and together they manage to get Brienne into WF and while looking for entrances to WF Brienne kills Boltons with no one finding the actual killer.

I agree, this makes the most sense.

Just thought of : THE HOUND!

Has not been mentioned in show since Arya left him, maybe he finds his way to WF.

[Cashless Society]

Just thought of : THE HOUND!

Has not been mentioned in show since Arya left him, maybe he finds his way to WF.

Why would Sandor go to Winterfell?

[Lord Damian]

Why would Sandor go to Winterfell?

On the way to taking the Black, Fighting, roof over his head and meals, he is a wanted man if alive, where else could he go and receive that?

[Grail King]

Why would Sandor go to Winterfell?

Other side of that coin, Why not!!

He knows Sansa, obviously the word is out that Sansa is in WF, the Hound knows of the Boltons part in the RW and he cares for Sansa, at one point he hoped to get in the service of house Stark and he was in the room when LF put the dagger to Ned's throat !

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Something struck me. Sometimes, the titles to the epsiodes can have equal meaning to two or more storylines. The Children last year, Tyrion to Tywin, Bran who is a child and the Children of the Forrest. etc. Episode 6, is "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken". We know, Dorne must be in this for sure but what if this is the episode that Sansa, who inevitably will suffer some abuse or assualt. This could also have a meaning in this for her. Even though it is not on the synopsis, it might very well be in the episode. and it is mid-season time that Alfie Allen has stated. What are the thoughts?

I don't think Sansa's in this episode. If anything traumatic happens to her, I'm betting it's on episode five, where Theon proves his loyalty to Ramsay.

[Zaphrinar]

I have a realllly crazy thought, so don't be mean.

What if Sansa/Ramsey wedding night ( if it happens, I'm still not 100% thinking it will) is played out consensually?

Remember when during the battle of Blackwater happened and Cersei has them all in the keep and she tells Sansa that her best weapon is between her legs? I think this is a thing and maybe a crazy foreshadowing?

[Lord Damian]

I don't think Sansa's in this episode. If anything traumatic happens to her, I'm betting it's on episode five, where Theon proves his loyalty to Ramsay.

she may or may not. If so, it would fit the lead up the actors and character seem to be headed. Ofcourse, I hope nothing that bad ever happens to her but I am conceding that something will.

[Grail King]

I have a realllly crazy thought, so don't be mean.

What if Sansa/Ramsey wedding night ( if it happens, I'm still not 100% thinking it will) is played out consensually?

Remember when during the battle of Blackwater happened and Cersei has them all in the keep and she tells Sansa that her best weapon is between her legs? I think this is a thing and maybe a crazy foreshadowing?

It could be that Sansa succeeds where all the fighting between Starks and Boltons failed, she breeds them out and takes the dread fort for her family and she creates her own life.

[Lord Damian]

Other side of that coin, Why not!!

He knows Sansa, obviously the word is out that Sansa is in WF, the Hound knows of the Boltons part in the RW and he cares for Sansa, at one point he hoped to get in the service of house Stark and he was in the room when LF put the dagger to Ned's throat !

Especially since the show is kinda letting everyone know that Sansa is out and about. Unless Lf had everyone in that tavern killed, ravens must be sent telling of a "Sansa sighting" and was with men of the Vale and "a lord" if not Lord Baelish himself. Cersei has a price on Tyrion's head so no doubt she has one on Sansa too.