[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIV - North remembers

[RSasoiaf]

Roose explained all of this in his dialogue with Ramsay.

The Boltons became a great house because of Tywin and Tywin is dead. He knows that if Stark supporters rise up against him, the crown wont support him, because the South never takes an army all the way into the North - so why the hell should he be worried about the South invading him?

The Lannister pride is broken, scattered - pretty much fucked. The reigning king is a child whose mind (and dick, in the show) are being controlled by Freja Margery.

What LF said about the Vale was that the last time the lords of the vale and the North united they overthrew the most powerful dynasty Westeros has ever known (Targs). This was LF convincing Roose that he was useful. Show LF is Robins protector or whatever for a year - in effect LF has a grace period in which he is Lord of the Vale.

And you fail to understand the contradiction on this very explanation?

So, if no southern army ever goes North, how come the Vale army will go?

And if no one really will go, then Roose has his own trouble trying to hold the North against Stannis. He should not be concerned with plotting against the Lannisters.

You see, there are just so many times when you can turncoat. The Boltons and the Frey´s did pick their side in a very brutal way. If they decide to change again, they will be dead! Roose is more clever and he would not turn away from the Lannisters as long as they should keep the Iron Throne.

[The Eunuch]

In what way does Roose need the Vale army? How is he going to get them to the North? Ahhhh I know...he can teleport them there.

You have so much hate toward this show that I'm wondering how you can still be on this forum. Stannis is at the Wall, Winter is coming, and the Northern lords hate the Boltons, and you're telling me that Roose doesn't need the Vale army?

And yeah, they will probably teleport or use unicorns. Or maybe (crackpot theory), they will just use their feet (or boats) to get there.

And how is it that LF ensures you the Vale army?

Have you missed the episodes where LF married Lysa Arryn, where he became father of the Lord of the Vale, where he gained the affection of the Lords of the Vale? Or does your hate for the show made you miss these moments?

Roose got Winterfell from the Iron Throne in case you did not notice. Last time we checked, the Lannisters were and still are in control. Granted, they will go down but Roose does not know that. It would be incredibly dangerous from his side to start plotting against the Lannisters as they still have Tommen on the throne and a full flower army behind his lovely queen.

Yeah you're right, it's totally out of character for Roose to betray someone :rolleyes:

[Lord Damian]

And you fail to understand the contradiction on this very explanation?

So, if no southern army ever goes North, how come the Vale army will go?

And if no one really will go, then Roose has his own trouble trying to hold the North against Stannis. He should not be concerned with plotting against the Lannisters.

You see, there are just so many times when you can turncoat. The Boltons and the Frey´s did pick their side in a very brutal way. If they decide to change again, they will be dead! Roose is more clever and he would not turn away from the Lannisters as long as they should keep the Iron Throne.

It alludes that there are many houses still in the North, asside from Stannis that if they organized, can get rid of the Boltons. It does not mention the Freys nor does it mention the Wildings, which are at the wall. I think LF is promising Vale troops to Roose to fight Stannis and potentially get a clearance from cersei regarding Sansa by telling Cersie that he is using Sansa to bait Stannis so he can be killed. All the while, he will join Stannis with Vale troops and double cross Cersei and the Boltons. Lf may be playing many people at the same time. However, an unexpected consequence may arrive from my last post. Lets say the Boltons are whiped out but Ramsay escapes into the woods or whatever, Sansa becomes pregnant by Ramsay. I do not think littlefinger would like that one bit.

[ummester]

And you fail to understand the contradiction on this very explanation?

So, if no southern army ever goes North, how come the Vale army will go?

And if no one really will go, then Roose has his own trouble trying to hold the North against Stannis. He should not be concerned with plotting against the Lannisters.

You see, there are just so many times when you can turncoat. The Boltons and the Frey´s did pick their side in a very brutal way. If they decide to change again, they will be dead! Roose is more clever and he would not turn away from the Lannisters as long as they should keep the Iron Throne.

The Vale is middling, it's northern South, or southern North. Besides, it was LF promising Roose that he could rally the Vale for him, not actual Vale action.

Does show Roose even know Stannis is coming?

It doesn't matter that there are too many times you can turncoat before people don't like you. The combined might of the Boltons and Freys is one of the biggest forces left in Westeros ATM. The side with the biggest army wins, not the sides that fights fairest.

In show Stannis is the biggest current army (and I think he brought most of it with Iron bank money).

The combination of Tyrells and Lannister forces is probably second biggest.

The combination of Frey and Bolton forces is probably third biggest,

Not sure how big the Dornish army is, in show.

If the Vale did join the Boltons and Freys, then they would be the single biggest force by far. And whats a great way to unite houses? Marriage.

Not saying the Vale will join them, or that everything will work out for the Boltons. Just showing that Rooses decision making is sound, in show.

Just as a side note - the number of disgruntled, un-united Northern Lords is probably larger than any current army but they aren't flocking to anyone. Also, the number of sparrows, that represent all of the disenfranchised small folk in show, are more numerous than the groups of Northern Lords. The sparrows probably represent the most numerous force by number of people, this season.

[Ser Quork]

Too much of a plot-point has been made about Sansa's virginity, so I'm not sure she's losing hers just yet - And to Ramsay. I just think we'll have to wait and see where this will take us, but i'm sure it won't be pleasant.

It automatically reminds me of Elizabeth I's much-vaunted virginity.

No. In the most sensible scenario, LF will assure Cersei that Sansa is actually fSansa, a random girl he found from one of his brothels. He will claim that he produced such a fake Sansa to solidify the Bolton rule in the North and prevent the Northmen to side with Stannis.

So, he will officially try to exonerate Sansa from the Purple Wedding and annul her marriage to Tyrion so that she will be free to marry Ramsay.

This makes a lot of sense.

The problem here is that we are dealing with two different religions. Well lets take this into real world context suppose a christian princess (dont mind religion just follow my logic here) was taken to a muslim kingdom (again dont mind religion just follow logic) where her family was killed and she was forced to marry one of lords or princes. She escaped and now has returned to her own country, in real world scenario no one will accept that forced marriage of princess in her home country and will annul it even with out any political gain. In this case the same situation applies plus there are also many political interests at hand.

Remember that Catelyn's children were brought up in the Faith of the Seven, so any marriage is binding, especially of a noble house. For me, it would feel really shoddy for the writers to try to ignore that an annulment is necessary.

When I saw this on the show last night I was kinda upset. Changing up this story line also messes with Theons. ... Just reading how Theon was trying to keep it to himself that Jeyne was not Arya stark was interesting, and how they helped her escape. And from the books we know what happens to Stannis and his attempt, so they are gonna rewrite that too? and Theon's story? I don't like this at all.

It may well be that Theon's character re-development takes the hit as helping Jeyne was so pivotal. Then again, I don't like how Theon's storyline has been dealt with in the show at all. In the book, it was masterful.

[RSasoiaf]

The Vale is middling, it's northern South, or southern North. Besides, it was LF promising Roose that he could rally the Vale for him, not actual Vale action.

Does show Roose even know Stannis is coming?

It doesn't matter that there are too many times you can turncoat before people don't like you. The combined might of the Boltons and Freys is one of the biggest forces left in Westeros ATM. The side with the biggest army wins, not the sides that fights fairest.

In show Stannis is the biggest current army (and I think he brought most of it with Iron bank money).

The combination of Tyrells and Lannister forces is probably second biggest.

The combination of Frey and Bolton forces is probably third biggest,

Not sure how big the Dornish army is, in show.

If the Vale did join the Boltons and Freys, then they would be the single biggest force by far. And whats a great way to unite houses? Marriage.

Not saying the Vale will join them, or that everything will work out for the Boltons. Just showing that Rooses decision making is sound, in show.

Just as a side note - the number of disgruntled, united Northern Lords is probably larger than any current army but they aren't flocking to anyone. Also, the number of sparrows, that represent all of the disenfranchised small folk in show, are more numerous than the groups of Northern lords.

Boy...and now you have the Freys also joining the Boltons?

Is LF going to marry Sansa to Walder also? :)

That might not work that well.....

[ummester]

Boy...and now you have the Freys also joining the Boltons?

Is LF going to marry Sansa to Walder also? :)

That might not work that well.....

Roose married Walder's fat daughter - you saw her smiling in the shots. The Freys teamed up with the Boltons in season 3 and that alliance still stands. Jeez, keep up :D

[RSasoiaf]

You have so much hate toward this show that I'm wondering how you can still be on this forum. Stannis is at the Wall, Winter is coming, and the Northern lords hate the Boltons, and you're telling me that Roose doesn't need the Vale army?

And yeah, they will probably teleport or use unicorns. Or maybe (crackpot theory), they will just use their feet (or boats) to get there.

Have you missed the episodes where LF married Lysa Arryn, where he became father of the Lord of the Vale, where he gained the affection of the Lords of the Vale? Or does your hate for the show made you miss these moments?

Yeah you're right, it's totally out of character for Roose to betray someone :rolleyes:

By the way, I do not hate the show. I just like to discuss its plot holes. Because, you know, when you care for something, you want it to improve. Not saying anything is the worst thing you can do. A lot of harm can come from people who just say Yes to everything and do not stop to think if its ok or not.

As for Roose´s being a traitor, he is not just a traitor, he is a cold and calculated one. As was and is Walder Frey. None of them is Ramsay who for sure can be rash.

LF could sure fool Ramsay...Roose and Walder are almost on his level. They are clever, they are cold, they can do anything.

As for Roose thinking that the Lannisters are down and the North is now suddenly powerful.....just because Tywin is dead? Because before Tywin died, he sure was thinking in a different way. So no, we dont have enough argument for people like Roose and Walder to shift sides again. Also, it would be bloody dangerous for Roose to try and get back to the North side.

You can only imagine:

"Hello boys! Forget about that joke with the wedding thing....no big deal....I was always going for the North"

[The Eunuch]

Is LF going to marry Sansa to Walder also? :)

Sansa will marry Ramsay in the show, get over it ;)

[RSasoiaf]

Roose married Walder's fat daughter - you saw her smiling in the shots. The Freys teamed up with the Boltons in season 3 and that alliance still stands. Jeez, keep up :D

It is you who dont understand 7 kingdoms politics.

Both got their power from King Joffrey. If Roose decides to go rogue, Walder can go either way. He has shown in the past he has no problem having his own family killed if need be.

So far, Walder his a loyal subject with the Iron Throne. He should logically side with Tommen. Walder also cant turncoat again and expect the riverlands to just chuckle at it.

[ummester]

As for Roose´s being a traitor, he is not just a traitor, he is a cold and calculated one. As was and is Walder Frey. None of them is Ramsay who for sure can be rash.

LF could sure fool Ramsay...Roose and Walder are almost on his level. They are clever, they are cold, they can do anything.

As for Roose thinking that the Lannisters are down and the North is now suddenly powerful.....just because Tywin is dead? Because before Tywin died, he sure was thinking in a different way. So no, we dont have enough argument for people like Roose and Walder to shift sides again. Also, it would be bloody dangerous for Roose to try and get back to the North side.

You can only imagine:

"Hello boys! Forget about that joke with the wedding thing....no big deal....I was always going for the North"

Everything you have described here is exactly why it is important, to Roose, for the Boltons, to marry with the Stark name.

Remember how the common folk started to like Joffrey when he was hanging out with Margery? Imagine what Sansa can do for Ramsay's rep.

[The Eunuch]

By the way, I do not hate the show. I just like to discuss its plot holes. Because, you know, when you care for something, you want it to improve. Not saying anything is the worst thing you can do. A lot of harm can come from people who just say Yes to everything and do not stop to think if its ok or not.

As for Roose´s being a traitor, he is not just a traitor, he is a cold and calculated one. As was and is Walder Frey. None of them is Ramsay who for sure can be rash.

LF could sure fool Ramsay...Roose and Walder are almost on his level. They are clever, they are cold, they can do anything.

As for Roose thinking that the Lannisters are down and the North is now suddenly powerful.....just because Tywin is dead? Because before Tywin died, he sure was thinking in a different way. So no, we dont have enough argument for people like Roose and Walder to shift sides again. Also, it would be bloody dangerous for Roose to try and get back to the North side.

You can only imagine:

"Hello boys! Forget about that joke with the wedding thing....no big deal....I was always going for the North"

Don't call "plot holes" what you don't understand. Especially when the season is not over and when you have no idea where it's going...

And yes, the Boltons and Littlefinger reacted after Tywin's death. They know that Jaime can't fight, that Cersei and the Tyrells will be at each other's throat (Littlefinger sure will see to that), and Littlefinger knows that Tommen is not the child of Robert (that could be a good weapon for the future). It's not a plot hole for them to move their pieces, it's smart. Both Roose and Littlefinger did such moves in the past (when Robert died, when Renly died, and when Robb died).

[ummester]

It is you who dont understand 7 kingdoms politics.

Both got their power from King Joffrey. If Roose decides to go rogue, Walder can go either way. He has shown in the past he has no problem having his own family killed if need be.

So far, Walder his a loyal subject with the Iron Throne. He should logically side with Tommen. Walder also cant turncoat again and expect the riverlands to just chuckle at it.

Joffrey is dead and the crown is crumbling. All of Westeros knows it. It's why the sparrows are rising. I admit the show glossed over this but it is still there, in this kind of hyper fast version.

Yes, Walder could betray Roose but he has no reason to betray the one house that openly embraced marrying into his.

[Colonel Green]

but it does potentially introduce the possible complication of her possibly becomming pregnant by Ramsay. Sophie did say that Sansa is interested in starting her own house, so what else could that mean? I could see this happening quite easily at this point.

Sophie explained what she means by that, namely, that she thinks her family has been trashed by people because they tried to behave honourably and wants to start anew. But one should recall the context of that, in that she believes her family is dead. She's presumably going to learn otherwise this season (Sophie has pretty much said as much).

[Lord Damian]

Sophie explained what she means by that, namely, that she thinks her family has been trashed by people because they tried to behave honourably and wants to start anew. But one should recall the context of that, in that she believes her family is dead. She's presumably going to learn otherwise this season (Sophie has pretty much said as much).

I hope you are right. For the record, the show has peaked interest with all of the things that are littlefinger all the way up to the wall. This is where the action is this year, all else seems a bit boring at this point.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Sophie explained what she means by that, namely, that she thinks her family has been trashed by people because they tried to behave honourably and wants to start anew. But one should recall the context of that, in that she believes her family is dead. She's presumably going to learn otherwise this season (Sophie has pretty much said as much).

I think Sansa's bit about forming her own house wasnover this episode. Sansa's journey now is back to her roots, her castle, her birthright. LF uses her Stark identity to lure her to Winterfell.

[Mithras]

Of course a legal annulment is necessary both in the show and in the books. Or Tyrion's death has to be faked.

[The Reckoner]

Does the "they never consummated" count in the show's setting?

[Mithras]

I think Sansa's bit about forming her own house wasnover this episode. Sansa's journey now is back to her roots, her castle, her birthright. LF uses her Stark identity to lure her to Winterfell.

The comments of Sophie above (Starks are easily manipulated fools so she has to get away from being that) and the original plan of George back in the day (Sansa choosing her child from Joffrey over her family and ruing it) cast a lot of doubts to that, at least for the show.

[Mithras]

Does the "they never consummated" count in the show's setting?

Nothing suggests so. If it does, then it is one of the stupidest ideas the show produced.