[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIV - North remembers

[RSasoiaf]

Sorry, it makes more sense to me than his plans in the book. In the book he seems to be helping Sansa gain power and influence. Marry her off to someone else.

WHY?! IT MAKES NO SENSE! Why give power to the daughter of the man you helped kill?! A person whose family you helped wipe out?! Why won't Sansa that use her power to kill LF? Why isn't LF afraid of such a situation? Does he have a plan b and c and d?

At least with this situation, I can see various ways to turn it to his advantage. Doesn't Lady Dustin say how the cries of fArya is causing more discontent among the northen lords? That's something LF could exploit.

I just have to adress this because its wrong in so many ways.

So...you think that LF should fear Sansa yet you dont think he should fear the Boltons???????

Whatever you drink I want some of that :)

Honestly, once the marriage is done, what keeps the Boltons from sending LF´s head to the Lannisters? Because, you know, the Boltons got Winterfell from Tywin and they are still working with the Lannisters. And if LF shows up with Sansa....it gets quite obvious he is crossing the Lannisters.

Or is Roose Bolton just be a happy subject to whatever kingdom LF wants to build?

And I am not even adressing what Ramsay could do to Sansa....and to LF if he even blinked at him the wrong way.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

As to the episode itself, this whole direction has already been debated extensively all around the internet. On a plot level, I'll say it's tremendously forced, and the writers, who have never been noted for subtlety, around walking a very fine line here.

It does feel really forced. *RANT ON* 4x08 - You had the Vale Lords (friends of Eddard Stark) find out about Sansa, discuss how they should move forward in the politics of the 7K without Robb Stark, agree that Robin Arryn needs to be groomed for rule and tour all the castles of the Vale. Ending with Sansa asking LF "Shall we go?"

fast forward to 5x01 they plop Robin off with Royce probably neither never to be heard of again this season, basically putting the Vale on "pause" in the way the Greyjoys/Yara can be reinserted or dropped.

but it makes NO sense the Vale Lords would agree to LF's winterfell plot.. in fact, Royce thinks they went to The Fingers just for kicks. So that means the Boltons, LF, and Sansa are playing this marriage in secret from both the Vale AND Cersei in King's Landing. BUT WAIT....the Winterfell household including Myranda down to the serving lady saying "The North Remembers, Lady Stark!" knows what's up. so how can neither the Vale nor Cersei find out eventually? how can Littlefinger honestly believe he holds the Vale in his pocket like this?

..yeah. I have no idea. i like the deviation, and i would TOTALLY like "The North Remembers" line but it's the singular indication to me that the Sansa x Ramsay marriage is public knowledge down to the common folk.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I still don't understand what exactly LF expect Sansa to do to effect this "vengeance". Stab Ramsay during the wedding night?

[The Reckoner]

They can do the Vale tour offscreen. Since they don't have Facebook in Winterfell, and Roose was able to intercept LF's ingoing/outgoing mail, I expect it'll be easy enough to keep the info on the downlow.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I still don't understand what exactly LF expect Sansa to do to effect this "vengeance". Stab Ramsay during the wedding night?

I don't think he has a plan at all

[Lord Godric]

Argh, so much to love about this storyline this episode.

- LF to Sansa: "Avenge them." Sansa visibly steels herself..

The more I think about this, the more I like it too. At first I was torn because I didn't think that Sansa would just accept Littlefinger saying that marriage was somehow vengeance, but now I can see that Sansa is politically aware enough to know that Littlefinger is using this marriage to get something else, something that will in turn bring down the Boltons.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

They can do the Vale tour offscreen. Since they don't have Facebook in Winterfell, and Roose was able to intercept LF's ingoing/outgoing mail, I expect it'll be easy enough to keep the info on the downlow.

yeah it's not even so much i miss the vale stuff tbh, just that it's an incredibly awkward transition to Winterfell in the show.

as for Cersei's letter going to the Eyrie and someone at the Eyrie knowing to send it to WF, that whole bit just sounds messy to me.

[The Reckoner]

I would assume it goes with LF having a mind for the game, people more loyal to him, better paid or something like that. Are all the Lords out and about with Sweet Robin?

[bruna stormborn]

Well, like someone said before the north remembers, but apparently the showrunners don't. I dind't like at all the scene with good guy Ramsay telling Littlefinger he promises he won't hurt Sansa (maybe I'm naive, but his eyes looked honest), and please, if someone could make and effort and explain this to me: Sansa is married to Tyrion and is acused to be part of the killing of Joffrey, and she is an outlaw just like Tyrion, right? Tommem is the king, so the Lannisters still rule the Seven Kingdoms, as far as I know. Sansa did not went to bet with Tyrion, but at this point, Tommem would have to sign the anulment of their wedding for her to be a single lady again, right? She must be single to have a real marriage with Ramsay. So how the hell does Littlefinger think this will happen? "Oh, hey Tommem, I found Sansa and I want her marriage anullment so she can marry the son of the warden of the north and I can gain more allies, could you sign this for me?"

[Good Guy Garlan]

as for Cersei's letter going to the Eyrie and someone at the Eyrie knowing to send it to WF, that whole bit just sounds messy to me.

Holy shit, you're right. In episode one LF made a huge show of keeping their destination a secret because he didn't trust Royce or anyone else in the Vale.

[ummester]

re LF & Sansa, shit, this isn't that hard to work out either.

LF likes Sansa but not as anything more than a commodity he can use to get more for himself. Sansa thinks that LF genuinely likes her and has her, not his, best interests at heart because he saved her from Kings Landing and she is still kind of niave.

I swear, it's been obvious since we first saw Sansa and LF this season, it is going to be about Sansa realizing LF is a prick who she shouldn't trust. GRRM is writing towards this slower than the show is heading there but they are both heading to the same place, Sansa destroying LF. Destroying LF is the final step in Sansa's coming of age.

Now, re Ramsay - either LF knows he is dangerous and thinks a Bolton alliance that it is worth risking his 'asset' Sansa for. Or, no-one knows quite how left of normal human centre Ramsay is, other than Theon, and its not like Theon is rushing off to tell people.

[Envie]

How exactly did people at the Eyrie know where Littlefinger went to forward that message that came from Cersei in King's Landing if he told them they were going to the Fingers? I also have to wonder if the Vale is going to support this move because then Roose Bolton can just call Littlefinger's bluff on that ... they aren't gonna come running to Winterfell to ally with the Boltons - they wouldn't even come out to help Robb Stark as the King in the North so LF is full of crap there no matter if he did marry Lysa he still has very little influence over the Lords of the Vale. I doubt Roose Bolton knows that so again - it's just a bluff hand to play.

Risky!

And I also agree there's a tad bit of a loose end there that the only person who can give Sansa a royal pardon from her marriage to Tyrion is the king. We're not in the war of the 5 kings anymore, and Roose Bolton isn't like Robb Stark, declaring himself a king aside from the real throne so how does he expect Ramsay marrying Sansa to actually be taken seriously? He also knows the north hates him - so this is going to be interesting to see him pull off. Because of that and my previous remark, I don't actually think a wedding between Sansa and Ramsay is going to happen.

[NIWhatley]

"The North Remembers."

Does that mean what I think it will mean?

What do you think it means??

[ADanceWithCats]

How exactly did people at the Eyrie know where Littlefinger went to forward that message that came from Cersei in King's Landing if he told them they were going to the Fingers?

Meh, ravens are magic email, anyhow. They probably homed in on Littlefinger himself.

[Giggagotz]

I'm still confident that Sansa will playing the role of Farya. Theon has said in interviews that he's meeting characters he hasn't met before. Stannis and co will be it in my opinion. Theon is not just going to fly to Stannis without Sansa. Sansa will get raped and tortured and Theon will be her escape route. I can't picture anything else happening. Littlefinger is going to Kings Landing and disappears in episode 8. Sansa will be caught between a war with Stannis and the Boltons. She won't be staying in WF while the battle happens.

[fionwe1987]

Don't think that in-show, someone needs to annul Sansa's wedding to Tyrion. Per LF, all they need to show is that the marriage wasn't consummated, which is easy enough.

[ummester]

How exactly did people at the Eyrie know where Littlefinger went to forward that message that came from Cersei in King's Landing if he told them they were going to the Fingers? I also have to wonder if the Vale is going to support this move because then Roose Bolton can just call Littlefinger's bluff on that ... they aren't gonna come running to Winterfell to ally with the Boltons - they wouldn't even come out to help Robb Stark as the King in the North so LF is full of crap there no matter if he did marry Lysa he still has very little influence over the Lords of the Vale. I doubt Roose Bolton knows that so again - it's just a bluff hand to play.

Risky!

LF always plays risky, calculated but risky - he has done from the first season. The Lords of the Vale may disprove but show Robin is in show LFs charge, remember he struck a deal or something last season?

Re the message, it probably did go to the fingers, from where he had it re posted ravened.

[rayarts]

Yeah, so now after everyone's seen this episode, some people should reconsider about Sansa being raped/tortured at WF.

Theon//Brienne//the"North" - Sansa is surrounded by "help". The Bolton's downfall is about to begin, thats what I think

[dogprivilege]

If they really did have this planned that early on, this makes the events of 4x08 seem even more nonsensical. idk why they set up a vale tour they unceremoniously just dropped and a sansa/lf dynamic that has yet to manifest itself on the show. I assumed s5 would be Sansa in the Vale learning from LF and the politics of the Vale and stuff and the end of s5 would be a big reveal and she would march to Winterfell s6 idk. imo that still seems to me what was set up, but i guess not.

i appreciate that it makes it much more exciting and interesting and im excited to see what happens, but...

re LF & Sansa, shit, this isn't that hard to work out either.

LF likes Sansa but not as anything more than a commodity he can use to get more for himself. Sansa thinks that LF genuinely likes her and has her, not his, best interests at heart because he saved her from Kings Landing and she is still kind of niave.

I swear, it's been obvious since we first saw Sansa and LF this season, it is going to be about Sansa realizing LF is a prick who she shouldn't trust. GRRM is writing towards this slower than the show is heading there but they are both heading to the same place, Sansa destroying LF. Destroying LF is the final step in Sansa's coming of age.

But didn't Sansa pretty much kinda get to this point in 4x08 ?(and i'd argue that she isn't that far off from this knowledge in the books either, she knows LF is not to be trusted, but she doesn't really have anything else to do or anyone else to rely on.)

[Hear Katy Roar]

are we *sure* Littlefinger isn't aware of Ramsey's deeds? He may know and just be keeping this knowledge close to the vest. I still think this is all a set up to take the Boltons down.