[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIV - North remembers

[Cas Stark]

The way I was hoping this would develop is it would be Sansa's idea to infiltrate the Boltons.

She then has to convince LF of that.

Then she would ask him for a weapon and he would give her the Valyrian Steel dagger Catspaw.

Which she uses to good purpose.

That may still happen.

It would be strange to make Sansa a killer in that way, since her story is more about politics than violence, I still think she's going to jump with Theon before anything happens to her.

[Woman of War]

The problem here is that we are dealing with two different religions. Well lets take this into real world context suppose a christian princess (dont mind religion just follow my logic here) was taken to a muslim kingdom (again dont mind religion just follow logic) where her family was killed and she was forced to marry one of lords or princes. She escaped and now has returned to her own country, in real world scenario no one will accept that forced marriage of princess in her home country and will annul it even with out any political gain. In this case the same situation applies plus there are also many political interests at hand.

I do not think this comparison applies since today we know about human rights.

Apart from that even in my Central European country immigrant girls (and boys) get abducted by their own family, get taken out of school and back to into a country where they have never lived and are forced, maybe not at gunpoint but still forced, to marry someone chosen by their family.

And if, IF , they manage to escape back to Germany they still have some bureaucrats to fight until they can end that unwanted marriage. But until then they count as married. In a country where human right allegedly apply.

In a timesetting similiar to ASIOAF this would have been impossible if only the girl's wishes are taken into account. It would only be a game of politics and religious authorities would have decided what is convenient for those in power.

[Colonel Green]

So, he will officially try to exonerate Sansa from the Purple Wedding and annul her marriage to Tyrion so that she will be free to marry Ramsay.

There is no annulment requirement on the show. Littlefinger says she's free to marry now, in his conversation with Roose.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I'm still confident that Sansa will playing the role of Farya. Theon has said in interviews that he's meeting characters he hasn't met before. Stannis and co will be it in my opinion. Theon is not just going to fly to Stannis without Sansa. Sansa will get raped and tortured and Theon will be her escape route. I can't picture anything else happening. Littlefinger is going to Kings Landing and disappears in episode 8. Sansa will be caught between a war with Stannis and the Boltons. She won't be staying in WF while the battle happens.

I don't see Sansa suffering that much. No rape and torture. I think things will get a bit dicey for her but the brunt of Ramsey's attention will probably be Reek and Myranda.

Don't think that in-show, someone needs to annul Sansa's wedding to Tyrion. Per LF, all they need to show is that the marriage wasn't consummated, which is easy enough.

They are Northerners who believe in old gods, all they need is a weirwood tree and say previous marriage was forced and in light of wrong gods and it is annulled. No one in the North will mind it religiously.

No, the marriage can't just be ignored. LF must get it annulled by the church, not Tommen. But he seems confident that the HS will agree to annul it based on the non-consummation.

It would be strange to make Sansa a killer in that way, since her story is more about politics than violence, I still think she's going to jump with Theon before anything happens to her.

I agree. I doubt Sansa will be a physical killer. If she kills anyone, it will be in a way that doesn't get her hands dirty. I agree she'll jump with Theon.

[boojam]

It would be strange to make Sansa a killer in that way, since her story is more about politics than violence, I still think she's going to jump with Theon before anything happens to her.

I think too that's where the story picks up the book again.

Its in-between I wonder about, the story is moving fast , am guessing that there will be an episode skip of Winterfell coming up.

I think the Sansa - Theon scene will be a heartbreaking one and also a very traumatic one for Theon.

A breakout of Reek scene.

Don't think Sansa will recognize Theon at first.

Seems to make sense that Sansa would also meet Stanis at some point and maybe even Jon, a lot of emotional meetings.

[Grail King]

Is 408 the Ep where Sansa puts on a darker dress at the end?

What I think was happening to Sansa in season 4 was that she was realising some of how LF plays is good effective and she was trying to wrap him around her little finger and thinking she had succeeded - but obviously she hasn't.

LF likes Sansa, a lot. But Sansa is not cat. I think Sansa will be his undoing, because he has been training her and likes her just enough to let his guard down - but Sansa hasn't realised that LF is willing to sell her out entirely for himself yet.

Her interpretation of his proposal being accepted is a clue that she hasn't reached full term yet, she listens to what he says, but doesn't yet understand what wasn't said.

[Elaena Targaryen]

One silly and minor thing bothered me when LF convinces Sansa to go through with it. He's really trying to convince her, he moves in close, he touches her then he does not maintain eye contact. I've watched it twice and it's annoying, you keep eye contact when your are trying to convince someone to listen to you.

It looked stupid and it just does not make sense - this is a horrific thing I'm asking you to do but trust me, trust me, trust me even though I can not look in your eyes.

I didn't get it but instead of assuming it was a poor acting/directing choice I thought I'd ask y'all what they could be trying to tell us with this. Why couldn't LF look Sansa in the eye? Because she was crying and it was hard for him, cause he was lying to her, cause he was feigning subservience or whatever?

[jbob]

I just have to adress this because its wrong in so many ways.

So...you think that LF should fear Sansa yet you dont think he should fear the Boltons???????

Whatever you drink I want some of that :)

Honestly, once the marriage is done, what keeps the Boltons from sending LF´s head to the Lannisters? Because, you know, the Boltons got Winterfell from Tywin and they are still working with the Lannisters. And if LF shows up with Sansa....it gets quite obvious he is crossing the Lannisters.

Or is Roose Bolton just be a happy subject to whatever kingdom LF wants to build?

And I am not even adressing what Ramsay could do to Sansa....and to LF if he even blinked at him the wrong way.

He does fear the Boltons. Hence why he is setting them up to fail. She's a pawn. In the show and most likely in the books. At the end of the day Sansa will choose LF over Ramsay. LF is probably counting Bolton needing the Vale to help him fight off Stannis and the Ironborn. Lannister ain't going to bother that. Certainly not with Tywin dead. And it's not like LF is alone at Wintefell. He did bring a small army.

[Colonel Green]

No, the marriage can't just be ignored. LF must get it annulled by the church, not Tommen. But he seems confident that the HS will agree to annul it based on the non-consummation.

No, if that were the case, Roose's next question after Littlefinger says Sansa is a virgin would be "but what about the annulment requirement?" Instead, he acts as if that settles the topic.

Moreover, if there was such a requirement, Littlefinger would have been planning to go to the capital anyway, but he was clearly taken off guard when Roose produced that message.

[Woman of War]

by Elaena T.

One silly and minor thing bothered me when LF convinces Sansa to go through with it. He's really trying to convince her, he moves in close, he touches her then he does not maintain eye contact. I've watched it twice and it's annoying, you keep eye contact when your are trying to convince someone to listen to you.

It looked stupid and it just does not make sense - this is a horrific thing I'm asking you to do but trust me, trust me, trust me even though I can not look in your eyes.

I didn't get it but instead of assuming it was a poor acting/directing choice I thought I'd ask y'all what they could be trying to tell us with this. Why couldn't LF look Sansa in the eye? Because she was crying and it was hard for him, cause he was lying to her, cause he was feigning subservience or whatever?

Yes, I registered that too, he makes eye contact and then loses it.

I interpreted it to myself that he thought of Cat in that moment. There was a slight insecurity in his voice and his eyes got vague. Maybe Sansa is his instrument here to get revenge on Cat in the long run. This may seem strange to us since endangering the daughter of your beloved for that purpose might be absurd. But Baelish is not used to thinking in terms of danger, he thinks in terms of possibilities and Sansa ashould want that too, shouldn't she.....

We will see what Baelish's ideas are.

[Grail King]

Sansa has kinda realised that some friendships are fake. During her wedding feast, she saw the Tyrell girls and thought (paraphrasing) "my so called friends". She was thinking about confronting Lysa but she went mad and died.

I suppose he might be playing her, like "if you do this, you can avenge them" so she could play along. But he's not actually expecting her to avenge them.

He's playing her, but he is also making her stronger with encouraging words, she's a Stark nothing can change that etc. and she can stay in a corner and mourn her losses or stop being a bystander and avenge her family, thing is it's may / will backfire on him as the pieace will have a mind of her own.

[Lord Damian]

This will make Littlefinger's time in Kings Landing very interesting.

[Cas Stark]

I think too that's where the story picks up the book again.

Its in-between I wonder about, the story is moving fast , am guessing that there will be an episode skip of Winterfell coming up.

I think the Sansa - Theon scene will be a heartbreaking one and also a very traumatic one for Theon.

A breakout of Reek scene.

Don't think Sansa will recognize Theon at first.

Seems to make sense that Sansa would also meet Stanis at some point and maybe even Jon, a lot of emotional meetings.

Stannis wins the battle against the Boltons and Sansa is re installed at Winterfell after the jump. Stannis keeps Theon? They showed Moat Cailin so "Yara" probably comes back too.

This kind of leaves Littlefinger as extraneous, so it will be interesting how this is resolved, it seems too early to kill him but if what we're seeing is a big skip in Sansa's story, which I think it is, and she ends up at Winterfell, then presumably, she's still going to slay that giant...but maybe next year for that.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

No, if that were the case, Roose's next question after Littlefinger says Sansa is a virgin would be "but what about the annulment requirement?" Instead, he acts as if that settles the topic.

Moreover, if there was such a requirement, Littlefinger would have been planning to go to the capital anyway, but he was clearly taken off guard when Roose produced that message.

Yes, he wasn't expecting to be called to KL but the marriage had to be annulled. Sansa wouldn't have referred to it so often if it was able to just discard it. He has to be planning an annulment.

He's playing her, but he is also making her stronger with encouraging words, she's a Stark nothing can change that etc. and she can stay in a corner and mourn her losses or stop being a bystander and avenge her family, thing is it's may / will backfire on him as the pieace will have a mind of her own.

I agree with this. He's playing her but he needs her to be in a particular frame of mind if she's to survive and thrive at Winterfell, which LF is banking on.

[The Eunuch]

I was a bit afraid for Sansa after this wedding idea, but now I'm confident. She's not Jeyne. Ramsay can't torture her, she's an important piece. Plus, Roose won't allow that, and Sansa is not the child she was when Joffrey tortured her, she would react.

And after the "avenge them" line by Littlefinger, I'm sure there's something planned between them. He can't tell her to avenge her family and then do nothing, they must have discussed about something.

[Woman of War]

Basically Baelish says to Sansa what so many book readers wanted to yell at her through time and pages:

"Wake up, you are a Stark, find your strength and avenge them!"

He only forgot to add: "Look after yourself while doing this and use your brain!"

[Grail King]

I think if in S4E8 they had intended to show that Sansa merely thought LF's equal, they would've given a subtle hint that LF is playing Sansa and that she is his future Jeyne Poole.

Instead we got some scenes where Sansa, unsubtly, looked like she really was in control of LF. Also they were going on a tour of the Vale, but suddenly that was dropped this season.

I think they did in Sansa's room as she is sewing the dress, " so you think you know me?"....... " I know what you want" he's 2 steps ahead but she at this point hasn't realized how important her claim is, she's thinking I'm my mom to him, not I'm the heiress of the North.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I was a bit afraid for Sansa after this wedding idea, but now I'm confident. She's not Jeyne. Ramsay can't torture her, she's an important piece. Plus, Roose won't allow that, and Sansa is not the child she was when Joffrey tortured her, she would react.

And after the "avenge them" line by Littlefinger, I'm sure there's something planned between them. He can't tell her to avenge her family and then do nothing, they must have discussed about something.

This! We're meant to see how far Sansa has come by seeing how differently she handles this similar situation.

[Grail King]

I just want to know one thing. What is cercei going to do when she finds out that Sansa is up at North and how exactly is LF going to get out of it. Now if LF is still clever the timing with the high sparrow could work out and he will give evidence to have her arrested so thus nullifying her power just to match his arrival to KL so cersei is powerless to do anything about Sansa and LF betrayal. No one is going to care about Sansa when KL is going to be focused on the queen reagent crimes, incest, killed her husband/king, adultery, conspiracy to kill others, her list is big.

I think right now cersei children being bastards is the worst kept secret everyone bloody well knows.

Well she's busy with the KL stuff, but she may just send troops North which will weaken her position even more in KL as there aren't enough troops to protect her power, also I'm thinking Lancel may spill the beans to the High Sparrow before Cersei has Lancel killed.

[Elaena Targaryen]

by Elaena T.

Yes, I registered that too, he makes eye contact and then loses it.

I interpreted it to myself that he thought of Cat in that moment. There was a slight insecurity in his voice and his eyes got vague. Maybe Sansa is his instrument here to get revenge on Cat in the long run. This may seem strange to us since endangering the daughter of your beloved for that purpose might be absurd. But Baelish is not used to thinking in terms of danger, he thinks in terms of possibilities and Sansa ashould want that too, shouldn't she.....

We will see what Baelish's ideas are.

Ah, ok I'll watch again later with that in mind. This storyline is so crazy I forgot about LF's obsession with Cat, see what happens in a 'shock and awe' campaign...

Basically Baelish says to Sansa what so many book readers wanted to yell at her through time and pages:

"Wake up, you are a Stark, find your strength and avenge them!"

He only forgot to add: "Look after yourself while doing this and use your brain!"

Yea I've read a recent interview with Sophie about this plotline and she says Sansa wants to forget about her roots. It's a pretty good interview so I'll quote it for others.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/27/game-of-thrones-interview-sansa-ramsay/?_r=0

Sunday’s “Game of Thrones” brought new responsibilities for some characters and new perils for others. But for Sansa Stark, who found herself betrothed to the sadistic Ramsay Bolton, there was just a sickening sense of déjà vu.

“It is a big throwback,” said Sophie Turner, the actress who plays Sansa. “She’s at the hands of another monster.”

Sansa began the series as a callow girl set to marry a prince and become queen of the realm someday. That prince, Joffrey, turned out to be a horror, and Sansa’s happy plans soon gave way to the execution of her father, a humiliating marriage to Tyrion and a flight for her life into the arms of a creepy uncle, Littlefinger, who then killed her aunt in front of her.

By the end of Season 4, she’d turned a corner, showing a cunning side that seemed destined to change her fortunes. Then, this week, she learned that Littlefinger had promised her to arguably the worst person in the show’s known world. “She does approach it very differently” than she did with Joffrey, Ms. Turner said. “She kind of knows how to get what she wants now.”

That said, she added with a bit of understatement, “it’s difficult with Ramsay, because he is a psychopath.”

Ms. Turner recently discussed Sansa’s latest misadventure. These are edited excerpts from the conversation.

Q.

Congratulations are in order.

A.

Lucky me.

Q.

Ramsay has been the most reprehensible guy on this show. When you heard that you were marrying him, what was your reaction?

A.

Well it’s like from one monster to another. She had Joffrey and then Joffrey died off, so they were like, “We’ll give her the second best. We’ll give her Ramsay.” I don’t know. If anyone can deal with these kinds of people, it’s Sansa.

Q.

Just because she has the experience of dealing with monsters?

A.

Yeah, she knows how to tiptoe around psychopaths.

Q.

She’s the monster whisperer.

A.

It’s like Buffy the Vampire Slayer — Sansa the Monster Whisperer. But obviously it was heartbreaking. When I got the script, I was shocked to my core. Because I was just like, is this really going to happen for her again? It’s really quite devastating. It is “Game of Thrones,” but when you had the moment at the end of Season 4 you think, “Oh her life is going to get better. She’s going to take matters into her own hands and she’s gonna be this powerful woman and liberate people and manipulate people.” And then it was just kind of like, “Oh.”

Q.

Does returning to her home mitigate the other part at all?

A.

Getting married to Ramsay Bolton can never be salvaged.

Q.

So it’s not like, at least I get to sleep in my old room.

A.

Yeah it’s more devastating than anything. And she’s kind of wanted to forget about her roots. Even through her clothing you can see it. She’s got the black dress, the black hair. She’s getting away from her Tully and Stark roots completely. I think she wants to forget about that rather than go back and become the Lady of Winterfell or whatever.

Q.

Why do you think she wants to get rid of those roots?

A.

When people think of the Starks, they think of them as very easily manipulatable. She really wanted to create a house of her own.

Q.

Her relationship with Littlefinger is complicated, but there did seem to be a sort of bond there. Do you think she accepts that this is part of a larger plot or does it just seem like pure betrayal?

A.

I think she would’ve put up more of a fight if she thought it wasn’t part of a big plot by Littlefinger, because he is the master of manipulation and he knows what everyone is doing at every moment of every day. So I think she does kind of go with the flow.

Q.

So is she going to be joining Ramsay on any of his hunts?

A.

Yeah she’s the new hunting partner, for sure. [Laughs.] We hope not. She’s not going to turn into a psychopath, too.