Gays?

[Kevvy]

Renly/Loras, the Blackfish and JonCon are all heavily implied to be gay; I picked it up on the first read perhaps because I'm gay and I've saw all the signs.

Yes Renly married, but for politics, not love.

[David Selig]

Yes Renly married, but for politics, not love.

This is the case with 97% of the straight nobles in Westeros too.

[eyenon15]

And proof that gay people in Westeros can indeed get married.

[Kevvy]

This is the case with 99% of the straight nobles in Westeros too.

True, but for those 99%, they weren't harbouring feelings for a man. It easy to be a bachelor; much more difficult to introduce a male partner - especially if you want to be a King.

[rayarts]

Being gay was not something you would admit to openly in those times. From my reading I suspected both Renly and Loras were gay on first reading, but it could not be overtly confirmed because they could never say so in public. Neither of these characters are POV characters so we don't see the 'truth' inside their minds, just other POV's perceptions. Hence the strong hinting rather than confirmation.

That.

[LmL]

double

[LmL]

Well I've made my case, I think it's clear enough. There's a lot of things you can't "prove" absolutely. But I think Martin assumes we are clever and intends us to pick up on not very subtle hints like this and make the connection. Of course, I tend to not really understand the overly skeptical approach to a series like this in general, so that's just my personal take on the way the series is written, I could be wrong. I mean, you can't "prove" RLJ absolutely, but come on. Figure it out. This is a puzzle, he's giving is clues, we are supposed to solve it without being told FOR SURE that xxxxx happened.

But as I said, I made my case and I don't want to go round and round and bring down the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

[HexMachina]

You guys are trying to avoid the obvious. "Has he married... some girl?" Hoster only cares to hear he's married a girl. He doesn't care who. He's in denial about him being gay, and still is holding on to the idea that he'll "straighten out."

And there's no reason an older person can't get married. None. Hoster hasn't seen BFish in years, and yet Cat tells him "you know he never will." How does he know that? Because he's gay.

You really think Hoster would come out and say to Cat: "Has he taken some man to husband yet?" Even if BF was gay? Of course he would say girl. Because in westeros, marriage is between a man and a woman. It doesn't imply that he is or isn't gay at all to ask if he has taken some girl to wife. It's basically just asking whether he married yet. And again, there are any number of explanations for why BF hasn't married yet. One of them, yes, being that he is gay. But it is not clear in the text that he is or isn't.

[Varysfan]

.

This entire train of thought is invalidated by Hoster asking, here on his death bed and far past the point where BFish's lack of marriage is an issue of duty or alliances, whether Blackfish hs married... some girl. He doesn't care who the girl is! If he was thinking about honor or family, he would care who he marries. But he says "Anyone? Anyone?" He doesn't care, as long as he marries a girl. This is exactly how family members in denial about someone homosexuality act.

I'm sure you have a lot of experience with family members being in denial about "someone's" homosexuality but to say he won't marry he's gay is just stupid, there are plenty of examples of gay and bi characters in the series and whilst not all in your face obvious it's still quite clear, and nearly all gay characters are actually married so not being married doesn't prove anything!

[Varysfan]

Well I've made my case, I think it's clear enough. There's a lot of things you can't "prove" absolutely. But I think Martin assumes we are clever and intends us to pick up on not very subtle hints like this and make the connection. Of course, I tend to not really understand the overly skeptical approach to a series like this in general, so that's just my personal take on the way the series is written, I could be wrong. I mean, you can't "prove" RLJ absolutely, but come on. Figure it out. This is a puzzle, he's giving is clues, we are supposed to solve it without being told FOR SURE that xxxxx happened.

But as I said, I made my case and I don't want to go round and round and bring down the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Now you are saying r+l=j is the same as the blackfish being gay? You really are just making crap up now

[Varysfan]

Renly/Loras, the Blackfish and JonCon are all heavily implied to be gay; I picked it up on the first read perhaps because I'm gay and I've saw all the signs.

Yes Renly married, but for politics, not love.

You've seen all the signs? As far as I'm aware grrm isn't gay so where did he get this power to know "all the signs"? How do we know the blackfish doesn't have twenty slave girls tied up in a dungeon somewhere that keep him satisfied?

[Humble Maester]

Well I've made my case, I think it's clear enough. There's a lot of things you can't "prove" absolutely. But I think Martin assumes we are clever and intends us to pick up on not very subtle hints like this and make the connection. Of course, I tend to not really understand the overly skeptical approach to a series like this in general, so that's just my personal take on the way the series is written, I could be wrong. I mean, you can't "prove" RLJ absolutely, but come on. Figure it out. This is a puzzle, he's giving is clues, we are supposed to solve it without being told FOR SURE that xxxxx happened.

But as I said, I made my case and I don't want to go round and round and bring down the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

The question isn't whether Blackfish is gay or not. It's quite possible he is. The problem is that you presented it as a (near) fact, which people peddling their favourite pots, cracked or not, too often do.

R+L=J is pretty clear from the books. Blackfish being gay is not. It is dishonest to try to argue otherwise.

[LmL]

I brought up the RLJ theory as an example of people using the "we can't be totally sure" argument to basically rende even the most solid theory (RLJ) insensible. I'm simply saying that we can't be sure about a lot of stuff, but we are supposed to figure it out from the clues given.

So, no, it's not proven that BFish is gay - but I do think it's clearly implied, and not very hard to pick up on. There isn't really a sensible alternative explanation for why BFish, the brother of the Lord of Riverrun hasn't wed, in spite of the Tully words. Just because he didn't want to doesn't really make sense for me. But if he's gay, that's a good reason to refuse to wed - he doesn't want to live a lie. Put that together wit Hoster's wording, and I think it's "clear enough." But no, it's not a "fact."

[eyenon15]

I'm pretty sure GRRM has already acknowledged that R+L=J is correct

[LmL]

I'm pretty sure GRRM has already acknowledged that R+L=J is correct

Haha, I don't think he has, in fact I'm pretty sure he hasn't. If he has though, I know some heretics who who would be interested in that SSM.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Chill dude, who said I'm freaking out? It's just a question. And would you post some of these hints? It'd be much appreciated.

Sorry man, I looked too quickly at your OP and didn't read it as carefully as I should have. Obviously others have posted the quotes by Stannis and Jaime in regards to their sexuality. Cressan talks about how Renly like bright colors, Ned and others notice Renly's attention to wardrobe, there's sort of a theme of flamboyancy around his character. As for Loras, he gets very cool when Sansa tells him she's sorry for Margaery that Renly died, and he talks about Renly all the time lol.

In regards to your point in the OP, I do feel like something was lost when the show made it out in the open. Part of the fun in the books is slowly realizing that there might be more then meets the eye with these two knights. I love that Martin doesn't let their sexuality define them as much as the show seems to.

[Valyrian Fork]

There's also the fact that Hoster really doesn't seem to give that much of a shit, comparitively, about Edmure not marrying and whoring his way around the Riverlands. Granted Hoster seems to have been really into using his kin to make grand alliance marriages (Cat + Brandon Stark, proposed Jaime + Lysa, Jon Arryn + Lysa, the Redwyne marriage for BF which we see from the Tyrells was actually quite a powerful and rich house), but that just begs the question of who, exactly, Edmure was being held out for. So that basically eliminates the "lol Blackfish is a totally heterosexual pimp living a bachelor life", because that's not enough to make Hoster mad. Edmure is his own son with a much more important job, ie getting an heir for Riverrun, and Hoster is astonishingly lenient in comparison. So, the political/feudal defiance isn't that important to Hoster, because Edmure does the same thing, which rules out that Brynden's just asexual and doesn't want a political marriage. Which leaves pretty much either gay or kiddie-diddler, and GRRM is pretty clear about telegraphing which characters are horrible kiddie-diddlers or psychos like Rorge and Biter.

I'm pretty sure GRRM has already acknowledged that R+L=J is correct

lol yeah GRRM totally acknowledged it openly sure thing

[James Arryn]

Sorry man, I looked too quickly at your OP and didn't read it as carefully as I should have. Obviously others have posted the quotes by Stannis and Jaime in regards to their sexuality. Cressan talks about how Renly like bright colors, Ned and others notice Renly's attention to wardrobe, there's sort of a theme of flamboyancy around his character. As for Loras, he gets very cool when Sansa tells him she's sorry for Margaery that Renly died, and he talks about Renly all the time lol.

In regards to your point in the OP, I do feel like something was lost when the show made it out in the open. Part of the fun in the books is slowly realizing that there might be more then meets the eye with these two knights. I love that Martin doesn't let their sexuality define them as much as the show seems to.

Bright colours? Wardrobe?

Like Jaime, Tywin, multiple Targaryans, etc.?

Also, people are confusing inclusively gay with exclusively gay. The only actual authority on Renly's sexuality...Renly...specifically says he's inclusively gay.

Vegetables being your favourite food doesn't make you a vegetarian.

[eyenon15]

Haha, I don't think he has, in fact I'm pretty sure he hasn't. If he has though, I know some heretics who who would be interested in that SSM.

I saw an interview where he said when he met D&D to pitch the HBO show that the first question he asked them was "Who are Jon Snows parents" He said he asks that a lot, it's his way of telling real fans from fakers.

To me that's an admission.

I will find the interview and post the link here brb

[Valyrian Fork]

Yeah, everyone knows about that. It's still not a direct admission.