Why did Hightower, Whent, and Dayne attack Ned at the ToJ?

[Minuteman]

I have a theory as to what happened at the ToJ that I have posted a few times and modified based on the comments of others. It isn't revolutionary but more of a spin to try to explain what seems to be a few odd actions of the players involved. We know that with the exception of the turncloak Jaime and the wounded/captured Selmy that the three remaining KG were at the ToJ and there fought Ned's group of seven resulting in the death of all except Ned and Reed who somehow stopped Dayne from killing Ned.

So Lyanna is at the ToJ and gives birth to Jon by Rhaegar. Lyanna never recovers from her pregnancy. After the Trident and the sacking of KL the Targaryen dynasty collapses. The KG at the ToJ realize that the location is not defensible so evacuate Jon to Starfall. Assuming Jon is considered the legitimate heir by the KG then Lyanna would also be under their sworn protection as Queen Mother. Once Jon is safe behind the formidable defenses of Starfall and at the borders of Dorne )which remains loyal to the Targs) the one or two KG that accompanied him retrun to the ToJ so as to not dilute their strength at the weak defenses there. The plan is basically to vigil until Lyanna recovers enough to travel or more likely died. Afterward they would ride hard for Starfall.

So Ned shows up to retrieve his sister. If Lyanna is in fact Queen Mother then the KG there are under her command so I can't imagine them stopping Ned from at least speaking with her. Note that this is true whether Jon is there or not. The KG would not be interested in keeping Jon's existence a secret if he were the heir. In fact it would be their duty to proclaim him as the new king of the realm. So I think that they let Ned speak with Lyanna unmolested. Lyanna tells Ned about Jon and makes him give her the commonly presumed promise that he take Jon as his own son and keep his identity a secret. I think that there was more to the promise than that. Ned tells Lyanna about the death of Rhaegar's children and the overwhelming host now under Robert's command. Lyanna tells Ned that the fool KG still there will proclaim him king regardless and Jon will die which is why she makes him promise her what she does. So this is why the KG and Ned's company fight. I also suspect that the way Howland Reed kept Arthur Dayne from killing Ned is that he showed him images of Rhaegar's children so that Arthur would see the horror that awaits Jon should they persist. Arthur then allows himself to be killed or takes his own life to keep from violating his oath to protect the king: if he sides with Ned then he denies his king but if he stops Ned then by his actions he kills the king. So he chooses death instead.

I know that Jon's presence at either the ToJ or at Starfall do not preclude this version but I really don't believe that he was at the ToJ. Ned recalls a scream but not a crying baby. Also, when Lyanna died black rose petals fell from her hand, not blue or red. Black suggests the petals were old and I don't think the KG would keep an infant king at the ToJ with a sickly mother incapable of caring for him when there was staff and presumably Measters at the strong and relatively nearby Starfall. So I think Jon was there and that is why Ned rushed there. Returning Dawn was merely a pretext. Heartfelt likely but a pretext.

Also, the feverish memory Ned had of the ToJ in the KL dungeon has Arthur saying "Now it begins" to which Ned replies "No, Now it ends." I don't think this is referring directly to the beginning of a battle but rather the beginning/end of a new dynasty.

[Lord Ser Septon Maester]

It's a little convoluted but maybe, I doubt it though.

[JaimetheConciliator]

Catch me up on something. Why would there be any possibility that Jon had not only just been born? Starfall? What's up with that?

I had just been assuming that the bed of blood was the result of very recent childbirth that took place at the Tower.

[Robb-TheYoungWolf]

Honestly, I doubt they let him pass. I mean look at it from their point of view, this is a man who has been aiding Robert Baratheon (who has sworn to kill all the Targaryens). Hell, they might have even heard about Aegon and Rhaenys which shows just what Robert and his supporters are capable of. They don’t know Ned’s character, they don’t know that he is honorable and would never hurt a child, Targaryen or otherwise. Up until this point Ned was the middle son and untested in battle, he probably didn't have the reputation he has currently in ASOIAF. All that’s known is that he is the son of Rickard Stark, brother to Brandon Stark (both of which were just murdered by a Targaryen) and that he’s bro’s for life with Robert Baratheon, leader of the rebels. Would you let that guy into the crown princes room without a fight?

Also, just going by the way it's presented in the fever dream it seems like the fight took place right after he arrived.

[James Arryn]

Yeah, they have zero reason to trust Ned. They're not protecting Lyanna's child, they are there to protect Rhaegar's. Lyanna's word would not mean much in the face of immediate threat, not even accounting for the fact that she's probably unable to even get out of bed.

[Makk]

I doubt it myself. The Kingsguard were there to protect the baby that was the king - Jon. They would not simply drop him off somewhere else and then return to the tower of joy.

[sweetsunray]

GRRM doesn't have Ned recall a crying baby because that would be a dead give away. GRRM is leaving out details about these scenes on purpose. Most people who read the first book didn't even realize Lyanna died because of giving birth. BUt it's very clear that Ned has not seen or spoken with Lyanna at all until after the battle with the KG. They are the first he sees and he's surprised to see them, expecting them to be with Viserys. They are there to protect the crown prince. Only when they're dead he gets to Lyanna who's already dying.

Starfall is a long ride from the ToJ, through canyons, etc. And no, the KG wouldn't go out riding with a newborn baby for days if not at least a week through canyons and desert and heat to bring it to Starfall and leave the mother behind. They'd leave the baby with the mother, because the mother can feed it after all.

Lyanna did not die shortly after childbirth, but of sceptic shock of puerperal fever, which takes 7-10 days after childbirth. Lyanna would have seemed ok for the first 24 hours, to then develop a fever and slowly succumbing to it.

[Kingmonkey]

I also suspect that the way Howland Reed kept Arthur Dayne from killing Ned is that he showed him images of Rhaegar's children so that Arthur would see the horror that awaits Jon should they persist.

I doubt Magical Howland is anything like that magical.

In broad terms, I wouldn't be remotely surprised if it turns out roughly approximating what you describe. Given how often we have it hammered into our heads that Westeros views kinslaying as being particularly abhorrent, I've never been happy with the idea that the 3KG would be so certain that Ned would want to kill his own nephew. There's also the oft-forgotten point that Ned turned up with just 6 men when he had an army at his disposal -- which strongly indicates he was more interested in keeping secrets than fighting Kingsguards. To me this is the big elephant in the tower that often gets ignored. I also believe that it's made quite clear that Ned views the death of the 3KG as being tragic, and that he dwells on the price he has paid for his promises to an extent which suggests a greater price has been paid than we have so far seen.

The "fever dream" description tends to be either used as an excuse to dismiss the ToJ dream evidence for R+L=J, or simply glossed over; neither extreme seems a satisfactory approach. If we assume that it should be taken to indicate that the events of the dream are not literal but that it rather gives us a broad-brush symbolic representation of the events, then something approaching what you describe seems quite feasible. Whether Jon was at the ToJ or Starfall seems like a pretty open question, though. Ned's post-ToJ journey to Starfall makes a fair bit of sense if he was feeling considerable guilt about Arthur's death, too. Particularly if he was told about the ToJ by Ashara in the first place.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

If they had taken Jon to Starfall. Then why wouldn't one or two of the KG's stay at Starfall? Their duty is to protect the King not leave him at Starfall and go back to the ToJ.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

They were tasked with defending Lyanna and her son and keeping her and her son safe. I imagine Rhaegar telling them to let no one but him through. They also see Ned as a traitor and as a threat to Rhaegar's son, especially after the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon.

[sweetsunray]

If they had taken Jon to Starfall. Then why wouldn't one or two of the KG's stay at Starfall? Their duty is to protect the King not leave him at Starfall and go back to the ToJ.

Exactly

[JaimetheConciliator]

Ned would want to kill his own nephew.

Upon what has it been based that Ned knew Jon existed before arriving at the ToJ?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Lyanna did not die shortly after childbirth, but of sceptic shock of puerperal fever, which takes 7-10 days after childbirth. Lyanna would have seemed ok for the first 24 hours, to then develop a fever and slowly succumbing to it.

Actually several months after Jon's birth. Enough timeto wait for Robert to arrive at KL, have the "discussion" about the Lannisters, to march to SE, find hints to Lyanna's location and ride for the ToJ.

[Connartist92]

Honestly, I doubt they let him pass. I mean look at it from their point of view, this is a man who has been aiding Robert Baratheon (who has sworn to kill all the Targaryens). Hell, they might have even heard about Aegon and Rhaenys which shows just what Robert and his supporters are capable of. They don’t know Ned’s character, they don’t know that he is honorable and would never hurt a child, Targaryen or otherwise. Up until this point Ned was the middle son and untested in battle, he probably didn't have the reputation he has currently in ASOIAF. All that’s known is that he is the son of Rickard Stark, brother to Brandon Stark (both of which were just murdered by a Targaryen) and that he’s bro’s for life with Robert Baratheon, leader of the rebels. Would you let that guy into the crown princes room without a fight?

Also, just going by the way it's presented in the fever dream it seems like the fight took place right after he arrived.

The crown prince is his blood though.. Do you really think the KG would assume Ned would slay his own nephew in front of his beloved, dying sister? Why wouldn't they let him see her? After everything he went through to get her back? Ned and his army weren't the ones who sacked KL and killed Elia and her children. I don't agree with OP's idea that Jon was at Starfall, but the promise to Lyanna to protect Jon from his own KG makes sense.

[Connartist92]

doublepost

[Makk]

The crown prince is his blood though.. Do you really think the KG would assume Ned would slay his own nephew in front of his beloved, dying sister? Why wouldn't they let him see her? After everything he went through to get her back? Ned and his army weren't the ones who sacked KL and killed Elia and her children. I don't agree with OP's idea that Jon was at Starfall, but the promise to Lyanna to protect Jon from his own KG makes sense.

I think it's likely that they didn't want anyone to know about Jon, for the moment at least. Their plan was most likely to get him to safety, and then crown him later. It's a tragic scene but letting 7 northerners know about a secret heir to the throne is not acceptable even if one of them is the babies uncle.

[Connartist92]

I think it's likely that they didn't want anyone to know about Jon, for the moment at least. Their plan was most likely to get him to safety, and then crown him later. It's a tragic scene but letting 7 northerners know about a secret heir to the throne is not acceptable even if one of them is the babies uncle.

I guess that does make sense. Even though Ned himself isn't a direct threat, word could spread easily if people found out.

I dunno, I've always thought there was more to the story (if R+J=L does turn out to be true) than we assume.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

The crown prince is his blood though.. Do you really think the KG would assume Ned would slay his own nephew in front of his beloved, dying sister? Why wouldn't they let him see her? After everything he went through to get her back? Ned and his army weren't the ones who sacked KL and killed Elia and her children. I don't agree with OP's idea that Jon was at Starfall, but the promise to Lyanna to protect Jon from his own KG makes sense.

They have no reason to trust Ned, no matter who he is and it's better to be safe the sorry.

[Connartist92]

They have no reason to trust Ned, no matter who he is and it's better to be safe the sorry.

They also have no reason to believe that he is some crazed baby/kin slayer

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

They also have no reason to believe that he is some crazed baby/kin slayer

Like I said it's better to be safe then sorry...