Why did Hightower, Whent, and Dayne attack Ned at the ToJ?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

There is no second chance if you all get killed either. Fight or talk, you take a chance either way so it's worthwile to explore diplomatic avenues before resorting to suicide by honor. If you aren't satisfied by the parley, you can always end it and draw your weapons.

Which is exactly what happened.

The King's Guard stated they were not surrendering or fleeing and Ned stated that they cam to make them kneel.

Then out came the swords

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

There is no second chance if you all get killed either. Fight or talk, you take a chance either way so it's worthwile to explore diplomatic avenues before resorting to suicide by honor. If you aren't satisfied by the parley, you can always end it and draw your weapons.

double post

[Mal Malenkirk]

Howland isn't intimidating in any way shape or form to a traditional knight. Ned is merely described as competent. If you gave me 3 NFL offensive lineman against 6 high school defensive lineman and a punter, I'm taking the NFL guys.

How about I give you 3 NFL offensive lineman and I take 6 NCAA offensive lineman and a punter? That's a better comparison. In that case, I take the 6 Offensive NCAA linesman and the punter and beat the shit out of your 3 guys 19 times out of 20.

7 vs 3 on an open field are bad odds in a fight. It's not the same as killing 12 guys over a battle with brothers fighting on both side of you and preventing you from getting ganged up on.

[Lord Varys]

Ygrain,

for the KG, of course. But not for Ned. And even a KG would not expected to slay/hand over his own infant kin if their parents were considered to be traitors. That's just wrong.

If Ned and company had to die for Jon then it is odd that they did not steal the child and abandon Lyanna to her death, no? Unless we go with an immediate birth before Ned's arrival. And what about trying to feign a stillbirth, for instance?

And we cannot be sure that Ned did not already know that Lyanna had been pregnant/married to Rhaegar. Rhaegar could have told.

[Lord_Tyrell]

They don’t know Ned’s character, they don’t know that he is honorable and would never hurt a child, Targaryen or otherwise. Up until this point Ned was the middle son and untested in battle, he probably didn't have the reputation he has currently in ASOIAF. All that’s known is that he is the son of Rickard Stark, brother to Brandon Stark (both of which were just murdered by a Targaryen) and that he’s bro’s for life with Robert Baratheon, leader of the rebels. Would you let that guy into the crown princes room without a fight?

Also, just going by the way it's presented in the fever dream it seems like the fight took place right after he arrived.

I think that's a bit unfair, especially considering that they spent a year with his sister and Ned's relationship with Ashara Dayne. I think they knew Ned, and I think without the dragonspawn comment, Ned would have told Robert about Jon. That's what they didn't know about Ned is that he and Robert had a huge falling out over the butchering of children, and after that point, Ned would protect Jon at almost any cost from Robert.

Even with that though, Ned would not have supported Jon being heir to the Iron Throne, so they had to protect him from Ned taking away his birthright, which he did in the end.

[Makk]

And, even if Ned could be moved to protect his sister's son, what about those other 6 men with him, can they be trusted?

This is the crux of it imo. Completely unacceptable risk. All it takes is for Dustin, or Ryswell, or Glover, or Cassel, or any of them to tell their wife. Then one of the wives tells their brother. Who then mentions it at the inn while drunk...

Why does anyone believe such a grave secret is likely to be kept among such a large group? The Kingsguard need the secret to remain a secret no matter how much they trust Ned.

[JonSnow4President]

Ygrain,

for the KG, of course. But not for Ned. And even a KG would not expected to slay/hand over his own infant kin if their parents were considered to be traitors. That's just wrong.

Your son, yes. I'm not sure that applies to the bastard child of rape of a man who was involved (sort of) with the death of your father and brother.

From the KG perspective, the latter much is easily something Ned can be thinking.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Which is exactly what happened.

The King's Guard stated they were not surrendering or fleeing and Ned stated that they cam to make them kneel.

Then out came the swords

That's not diplomacy. They didn't even explain to him what was their goal.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

That's not diplomacy. They didn't even explain to him what was their goal.

So they should have tried to convince Ned to support the Baby Targaryen in the castle as the new King and dispose of Robert?

[Lord_Tyrell]

I think it's likely that they didn't want anyone to know about Jon, for the moment at least. Their plan was most likely to get him to safety, and then crown him later. It's a tragic scene but letting 7 northerners know about a secret heir to the throne is not acceptable even if one of them is the babies uncle.

Read the dialog again. They clearly don't beat around the bush on what Ned will find up those stairs, and they knew Ned knew since he only brought his 6 most trusted men and not an army. I think they knew Ned or any of the men with him wouldn't kill the baby, but that doesn't protect Jon from everyone else as well as his birthright.

[JonSnow4President]

How about I give you 3 NFL offensive lineman and I take 6 NCAA offensive lineman and a punter? That's a better comparison. In that case, I take the 6 Offensive NCAA linesman and the punter and beat the shit out of your 3 guys 19 times out of 20.

7 vs 3 on an open field are bad odds in a fight. It's not the same as killing 12 guys over a battle with brothers fighting on both side of you and preventing you from getting ganged up on.

Depends on the NCAA lineman. If I get Myles Garrett, Joey Bosa, Sean Oakman, etc., I'd take the NCAA lineman against your average NFL lineman.

But Tyron Smith, Joe Thomas, and Jason Peters against an assortment of Kentucky, Kansas, Colorado, and MAC players? I'll take the elite guys.

[Lord_Tyrell]

It was Dawn, older than most of the castles in Westeros, returning it for someone like Ned makes complete sense and also given what it meant to the Dayne family.

I think it's more to do with the fact that the Daynes are the only major house aware of the fact Rhaegar had another son, and they need to talk about the cover-up story and what they would do with Jon.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Do you think he would have been admitted to see Lyanna and crown prince Jon ? Or slaughtered where he stood even tho he was future kings uncle ??

I don't think he'd be slaughtered on the spot, but he sure as shit wouldn't be allowed to leave there. He may have gotten some audience with Lyanna, but then I'm guessing they would have killed him away from the Tower of Joy.

[Makk]

Read the dialog again. They clearly don't beat around the bush on what Ned will find up those stairs, and they knew Ned knew since he only brought his 6 most trusted men and not an army. I think they knew Ned or any of the men with him wouldn't kill the baby, but that doesn't protect Jon from everyone else as well as his birthright.

Firstly I don't take it that Ned knew about Lyanna being pregnant as a given, especially since he was surprised about seeing the kingsguard there. You are making a massive assumption about why he took only 6 men, with not much information. It could simply be he only had six men when he visited the Daynes or however he learned about Lyanna's location.

But even if he did know, and he only brought 6 men, it means that the secret can still be contained. We know in hindsight that Robert, nor very many others knew. It would still be a secret if those 7 died.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Two points:

1) on Ned turning Jon in to Robert: actually, if the KG knew from Lyanna that Ned was a man of honour, it would make matters worse. A man of honour, just like the KG themselves, is honour-bound to act in his liege's best interest, and that is hand Jon over to Robert, to prevent another civil war in Jon's name. What chances are that they would persuade this man of honour to act dishonourably?

And, even if Ned could be moved to protect his sister's son, what about those other 6 men with him, can they be trusted?

Exactly. I think the Kingsguard knew that Ned was not going to directly kill the baby (if so, he would have dragged his whole army with him), but he would tell Robert which means he's as good as dead. As honorable men, it's what they would have done as well to the King they were serving, so they assume the same from Ned.

I think if they knew about Ned's falling out with Robert over the dragon spawn comment, they may have contemplated some sort of futile pact to smuggle Jon out of Westeros, but even that Ned would have no part in since it would involve Jon returning in 20 years and taking the throne from Robert and his children. Ned had to die if they were going to keep Jon as King.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Firstly I don't take it that Ned knew about Lyanna being pregnant as a given, especially since he was surprised about seeing the kingsguard there. You are making a massive assumption about why he took only 6 men, with not much information. It could simply be he only had six men when he visited the Daynes or however he learned about Lyanna's location.

But even if he did know, and he only brought 6 men, it means that the secret can still be contained. We know in hindsight that Robert, nor very many others knew. It would still be a secret if those 7 died.

1) He wasn't surprised at all to find the Kingsguard there. He was surprised where they weren't beforehand. He thought he'd see them on the Trident, in Kings Landing, sailing with Viserys to Dragonstone, and was really puzzled when they weren't at Storm's End. I think that Ned was tipped off by Ashara Dayne when he lifted the siege on Storm's End, and Arthur Dayne knew it the second he came over that hill on how he knew they were there.

2) When does a high lord in war go anywhere without an army behind his back, especially in enemy territory? He brought his 6 most trusted men, and he figured he'd need at least two men for every Kingsguard to take them down, and even then it's iffy. I think Ned was counting on capturing Jon and sending him secretly to the Night's Watch or have one of his other surviving men take Jon home as a bastard.

3) Reread the Tower of Joy sequence, specifically when they talk of fleeing with Viserys to Dragonstone.

"Ser Willem is a good man and true."

"But not of the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard DOES NOT FLEE."

"THEN OR NOW."

They're directly telling Ned what he already knows that the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms is up those stairs and that they're about to face off with him to the death. I don't see how that line can be interpreted any other way.

4) The secret of Jon's heritage could be contained, but the Kingsguard didn't want to make his heritage a secret. He was the rightful king and the Prince that was Promised. Even if Ned protected Jon, he threatened to take this away from him due to Robert. Sure they'd want it to be secret for a while, but not for more than say 20 years. Ned could not be allowed to leave with that information or with Jon.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Just out of curiosity Kingmonkey, how would the KG know these were Ned's most trusted Lords, and not just some fighters he brought along with. This is the man that overthrew the previous king and whose Brother called for the death of the Crown Prince. If they've heard about the children, I can almost guarantee that Ned's distaste is not accurately represented.

If they sit there, and think about it for some time, they might be able to guess that Ned would only have brought so few for secrecy reasons. But in the heat of the moment, with 7 armed (and likely skilled) men approaching, one of which was a key figure in deposing the dynasty you've served, would you think "why are there so few?" or would you think "shit's about to go down."

I think you are grafting a supernatural ability to read the story as we can to the KG, which would be working with only a fraction of the information that we have.

Well, they would know Brandon Glover for sure due to all the Kingsguard being present for Aerys roasting Rickard alive, but yes the others they wouldn't know. But I still think it's a safe assumption Ned trusts all 6 of these men and they were there to keep this as low profile as possible. If Ned didn't want to keep this low profile, he would have brought his army with him. They knew Ned didn't want to hurt the child, but it doesn't change the fact that everything they knew about him supported that he'd turn the child over to Robert.

[James Arryn]

IMO, people are overthinking this.

You do not let a leader of the enemy forces which seeks the destruction of the royal family you vowed to protect have an audience with the newborn repository of that family's fortune just because he shows up with soldiers in tow. It's really that simple. Ned's honour is irrelevant. The secret is largely irrelevant. He's in open war with the baby you protect. If you let him in and he kills the baby, who in their right mind wouldn't hold you responsible?

[Kingmonkey]

If you read the quote Ran was responding to, it states that Viserys was named heir after Rhaegar's death. So, no, Rhaegar was never disinherited.

Er whut? Nobody said anything about Rhaegar being disinherited.

You said:

At no point was Viserys actually named heir. Aerys toyed with the idea of doing it, but he never actually did.

You seem to have changed your mind now, so I guess debate over?

[Lord Varys]

The knights at the tower most likely had no clue about the fate of Aegon and Rhaenys - and if they did, who is to say that they not also not know about Ned's POV on the matter. His fallout with Robert over this would have been a public event.

But the core is:

You cannot take this dream sequence as literal dialogue - at best it is twisted and partial reconstruction of the actual words that were exchanged.

If George is really going to sells us this dream dialogue as realistic real world dialogue it will be the most unrealistic piece of prose he has ever written. It is a great dream sequence full of symbolism and such, but it doesn't work as a scene in real life.

If Bran visits the place in a vision or if Howland shares his memories with us we are in for a huge surprise.