Why did Hightower, Whent, and Dayne attack Ned at the ToJ?

[SolomonBlack]

That could explain it, but I don't think the sword was his only reason for going there. And why haven't we seen any other mention of Dawn since he returned it? It could be that it was never returned, and just part of the story.

Pretty sure its mentioned quite a bit it just currently (presumably) has no worthy holder because the Daynes only give out Excalibur Dawn to the worthy of their family so its presumably just sitting around Starfall. Maybe in a rock or something for security.

I dare say Lord "Ned" Dayne would have mentioned it to Arya if it wasn't in good hands and Ned Stark was to blame. Also the Daynes can't be that made at the Starks if they named their heir after him.

[Ygrain]

They also have no reason to believe that he is some crazed baby/kin slayer

And they have all reasons to believe that he is Robert's faithful vassal, and as such honour-bound to reveal the existence of Rhaegar's son to him - and we all know how apt Robert was at turning away while others murdered children for him.

That's an interesting speculation... but isn't a critical part of interpreting this scene is the use of "bed of blood" strongly associated elsewhere in the text with child birth itself. Symbolism aside it raises the issue of why had nobody changed the bedding? A quick wiki check of puerperal infections reveals possible "discharge" but doesn't mention bleeding as a symptom also it would have to be you know quite a lot and red enough.

Even uncomplicated delivery results in bleeding, for weeks. The wiki may not mention it explicitely but a consulted obstetrician did (yeah, some researchers here are very thorough) and excessive bleeding is indeed one of the symptoms.

I don't think the idea that Jon was already in Starfall holds up at all. At least one, if not more, of the Kingsguards would be with the baby King. Surely Arthur Dayne, at least, would stay at his own ancestral home with the King, and really, Hightower as Lord Commander should be there too. If it's just about guarding Lyanna, Whent by himself would be sufficient.

Theoretically, it does - we see a similar situation when Aegon II was smuggled from KL under a heap of fish whereas the KG were sent with his children. No KG present = no-one suspects a king present, whereas Dayne or Hightower hanging at Starfall would raise suspicion. And, no, one person is not enough to guard Lyanna if we take into consideration that the main factor is not her own safety but not letting anyone near her, so that they don't find out that she has given birth.

There is more to the story then we are being told. Ned obviously knew that something was up with Lyanna, since he was told of her whereabouts. Secondly, the KG being there should have been a dead giveaway that they were protecting someone, i.e. a member of the royal family. Why Ned didn't perceive that I don't know, but it should have been obvious. Him riding to Starfall after does need more explaining, since Edric Dayne says that him and Jon were milk brothers, meaning that at some point Jon was there and for a while (obviously). Of all the noble's killed in the rebellion, why return that one sword?????? It doesn't make sense.

Another thing I never quite understood is why the KG wouldn't send for a maester if they knew Lyanna was dying, which leads me to believe that they didn't know that she was. We are missing a key factor to this story, and hopefully it gets answered in the next book.

And last but not least, Aerys had to have known that Rhaegar had Lyanna. Why didn't he send someone to retrieve her????? He knew where to find Rhaegar to have him come back to KL, so what's up with that?

Jon and Edric being milk brothers means that they were breastfed by the same woman, not necessarily at the same place or time. Also, that one sword is legendary, thousands of years' old family heirloom. Most people probably wouldn't bother to travel there in person but with Ned the Superhonourable, it makes sense (it was most probably a convenient cover up for him to dispatch Jon to the North without anyone knowing while Ned reported back to Robert and was never seen with a baby in KL and whereabouts).

There was another person or persons present at the tower, so there may have been a maester. Even if there was one, though, he wouldn't be able to save Lyanna, anyway, not without ATBs.

The fact that Hightower arrived at ToJ doesn't mean that Aerys knew its location; it would have been very foolish of Rhaegar to let Aerys know where Lyanna was. Hightower might have been sent to some location that was presumed to be Rhaegar's hideout, such as Starfall or Summerhall, and only from there guided to ToJ without giving him a chance to let Aerys know.

I like this thread. I'm not sure everything went down the way you suggest in the OP but I like how you are trying to reconcile a few things. We know Jon was born within a week of the sack, yet it would have taken Ned at least a couple of months to get to the TOJ. We know that "they" found Ned over Lyanna, and that Ned then travelled to Starfall where Ashara supposedly killed herself. We also know Neds dream was not completely accurate, so I like what your trying to do.

Actually, within a month (8-9 months prior Dany or thereabouts), and, in fact, the travel times do make it possible in the required time frame.

[Ygrain]

double post

[239JMFL34109]

You do not become as skilled a warrior as these three men are or as loyal and dedicated as they are by not realizing what their talents are worth and what they need to do to do their duty.

They would not waste themselves by just falling on Ned's sword and forgoing their oath and their duty to protect those in the Tower but also those at Dragonstone.

They are highly valuable warriors to the Targaryen side, especially now that they are so few warriors left. They need to win so they can get Jon to Dragonstone with the rest of the Targaryen Royals. They have a job to do and a oath to uphold. They are not the type to give up and die.

See here is the thing that is putting the people in the tower in the greatest danger is the king's guard presences at the tower. By dying there they don't have to serve the usurper, If they protect their charge they are only putting their charge in more danger, And i think they were trying trap ned in the impossible situation of either support your friend as king and kill you kin or support your kin the rightful ruler (as far as they know)

[Sensenmenn]

Pretty sure its mentioned quite a bit it just currently (presumably) has no worthy holder because the Daynes only give out Excalibur Dawn to the worthy of their family so its presumably just sitting around Starfall. Maybe in a rock or something for security.

I dare say Lord "Ned" Dayne would have mentioned it to Arya if it wasn't in good hands and Ned Stark was to blame. Also the Daynes can't be that made at the Starks if they named their heir after him.

Maybe arther never died and still has it? Who knows.

[UnmaskedLurker]

There is more to the story then we are being told. Ned obviously knew that something was up with Lyanna, since he was told of her whereabouts. Secondly, the KG being there should have been a dead giveaway that they were protecting someone, i.e. a member of the royal family. Why Ned didn't perceive that I don't know, but it should have been obvious. Him riding to Starfall after does need more explaining, since Edric Dayne says that him and Jon were milk brothers, meaning that at some point Jon was there and for a while (obviously). Of all the noble's killed in the rebellion, why return that one sword?????? It doesn't make sense.

Another thing I never quite understood is why the KG wouldn't send for a maester if they knew Lyanna was dying, which leads me to believe that they didn't know that she was. We are missing a key factor to this story, and hopefully it gets answered in the next book.

And last but not least, Aerys had to have known that Rhaegar had Lyanna. Why didn't he send someone to retrieve her????? He knew where to find Rhaegar to have him come back to KL, so what's up with that?

Here are my best guesses in answer to your questions:

Ned might have known Jon was in the tower before the battle -- but so what. How would Ned's knowledge that the KG are guarding Lyanna and Jon cause Ned to act any differently that merely believing that the KG were guarding Lyanna. Maybe Ned thought they were only guarding Lyanna because they were following Rhaegar's orders. But even if Ned knew Jon was in the tower, it would not change his behavior. And I don't think it was that obvious if he did not know about a possible marriage between R&L (polygamy was very uncommon at that time). But based on Ned's questions about the KG going to DS with Viserys, I don't think Ned knew.

The KG could only send for people they trusted would keep the location secret. They might have sent for a maester, but the maester might not have arrived yet or might have arrived by unable to save Lyanna. Lyanna likely gave birth and was fine for a day or so and then got a high fever. So the time between when the KG would know they needed a maester and when Ned arrives is quite short. But even if a maester came, many women with the help of a maester still died from puerperal fever.

ETA: I forgot about your Aerys question. I don't think Aerys knew where to find Rhaegar, and I don't think Aerys really cared about Lyanna one way or the other -- although i am sure Aerys would have loved to hold her as a hostage if he could. Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar and bring him to KL, and Hightower managed to do this (although unclear how). I don't think Aerys ever knew or found out where Rhaegar was (which was why Hightower could not be allowed back in KL -- Aerys might ask Hightower where he found Rhaegar).

[Minuteman]

Several interesting points. However, I still have yet to hear it explained as to why, if Ned simply showed up to see his sister or even to retrieve her post-Rhaegar, that the honorable KG would find it a rational response to kill him instead. Why not let him see his sister (especially if she was dying)? Aerys is dead. Rhaegar is dead. The KG would feel it their duty to do the opposite of keeping an infant king hidden. So keeping Jon incognito isn't a likely answer. So there is obviously a deeper reason behind it.

Also, we need to keep in mind the Edric Dayne thought it very odd that Arya had never before heard the name Ashara. So the story was certainly in the Dayne family lore. Point being I find it a bit of a stretch to think that Arthur would not have known who Ned was at the ToJ when his as yet unborn nephew knew of him in intimate detail through his aunt, Ashara's sister.

And where does Wylla, the Dayne's wet nurse come into it? I assume that the KG would not let a feverish woman nurse a newborn king even if she were his mother. Assume then that Jon needed a wet nurse when Lyanna became ill. Would they take Jon to Starfall or go to Starfall, get Wylla, then come back? Seems the former more likely as it would take half the time. If Wylla is at the ToJ does Ned take her and an infant at hard ride to Starfall to return Dawn? Or does he leave Jon and Wylla alone or with Reed only at the ToJ after they pulled it down? Or for that matter do they pull down the ToJ and build cairns for the fallen all while a wet nurse and a crying baby are with them? Again, I say it seems far more likely given the actions of Ned and the KG that Jon was not at the ToJ when Ned arrived.

The only argument against is that one of the KG at least would remain with Jon at Starfall. But why? Arthur presumably knows the people there and would be comfortable with the qualities of the household guard at least enough to know whether the presence of one more knight would make even an iota of difference. His sister and brother were both there. It was at the borders of Dorne which remained loyal to the Targs. So Jon was well protected and a KG escort, even if only one, would be superfluous. If they had any intent to protect Lyanna though they would need all their strength as the ToJ was not a defensible structure (two men pulled it down after all). So in that context the decision doesn't seem outlandish.

And as for the magical Howland Reed. Meera describes her father as knowing "the magics of the crannogs" and that he could "change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word" and "make castles appear and disappear." To me this sounds like Howland Reed has the power of suggestion (I assume that he cannot actually do these things but rather is more of an illusionist). So, assuming that Howland Reed was with Ned to see the bodies of Rhaegar's children (easy assumption) then he could convey this image to Arthur as the fate that awaits Jon if he persists in proclaiming him king. Either that or he is the ultimate crannog ninja badass that defeated the mightiest warrior in living memory. He was roughed up by some simple squires of common knights though so I question the ultimate warrior scenario.

[WolfgangII]

I want to adress the actions of the KG (which I believe is the key to understand what happen in the ToJ with the little information we have) takin into account that they are suppossed to be the most honorable men in Westeros and truly loyal Kingsguards.

The KG have vow to protect the king, which is Aerys II (they could only obey and protect the royal family, if it doesn't contradict the King's orders). Why does the the LC Hightower, Dayne and Whent weren't at the King's side before the Sack? Well, they probably never thought that Tywin will attack the city, that Aerys will open the gates and that Jaime will kill Aerys. So, ok, it could be in-characther that they were at the ToJ, but only if Aerys haven't call them back to KL. (I'm disregarding any theory about a plot to overthrow Aerys II, in which the KG was involved).

So, Aerys never call them back or news never reached them, the fact is, Rhaegar depart towards KL and left the three knights in the ToJ. Assuming R+L=J is true. After the Trident and the Sack, Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead, so the heir of the crown is Rhaegar's only boy: Jon. The KG didn't protect Jon only because he was of the royal family or because Rhagear told them; they did because Jon is their king (Assuming he is not a bastard, if not, Viserys is and they should have try to reach him).

Now the question is how they can protect their infant king, and probably the queen mother, from the rebel's rage? They could go back to Dorne, who was an ally, but Doran and Oberyn could resent that the three KG were not anywhere near Elia and her children to protect them, in order to guard Rhaegar's second wife and son. The Reach has surrender and travel incognito to the Riverlands or any port will be really risky. (Yes, maybe they didn't have time because Lyanna was ill and then Ned show up, but I assume at least one knight will have leave the ToJ in order to protect their new king, if leaving was a better option).

Starfall is the best option: home of Dayne, with resources to sustain a siege and close to the coast to travel to Dragonstone or Essos. That's why I find OP theory plausible. Maybe they did left Jon there, maybe they didn't, but is clear that they have to protect Jon as their new king, even though than will put Lyanna's life on danger.

I also fin credible that the KG will proclaim Jon the new king and call the remain Targaryen loyalist (if there is any) to his cause. Yes, its absurd and futile, but they are the KG, they are suppossed to do the "right" and honorable thing first. They have vow to protect the king and his kingdom, and if Jon is incognito, he doesn't have any kingdom. I see why Lyanna, who is thinking more on Jon's life than his status as king, will ask Ned to kill these KG who would jeopardize the life of his baby in order to fulfill their vows. I see Ned's man attacking an unarmed or unprepared KG, and that's why 7 men (above-average fighters if you want) could kill three of the better fighters in Westeros. That's why he felt such remorse that drove him to return his sword to Starfall.

[WolfgangII]

I want to adress the actions of the KG (which I believe is the key to understand what happen in the ToJ with the little information we have) takin into account that they are suppossed to be the most honorable men in Westeros and truly loyal Kingsguards.

The KG have vow to protect the king, which is Aerys II (they could only obey and protect the royal family, if it doesn't contradict the King's orders). Why does the the LC Hightower, Dayne and Whent weren't at the King's side before the Sack? Well, they probably never thought that Tywin will attack the city, that Aerys will open the gates and that Jaime will kill Aerys. So, ok, it could be in-characther that they were at the ToJ, but only if Aerys haven't call them back to KL. (I'm disregarding any theory about a plot to overthrow Aerys II, in which the KG was involved).

So, Aerys never call them back or news never reached them, the fact is, Rhaegar depart towards KL and left the three knights in the ToJ. Assuming R+L=J is true. After the Trident and the Sack, Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead, so the heir of the crown is Rhaegar's only boy: Jon. The KG didn't protect Jon only because he was of the royal family or because Rhagear told them; they did because Jon is their king (Assuming he is not a bastard, if not, Viserys is and they should have try to reach him).

Now the question is how they can protect their infant king, and probably the queen mother, from the rebel's rage? They could go back to Dorne, who was an ally, but Doran and Oberyn could resent that the three KG were not anywhere near Elia and her children to protect them, in order to guard Rhaegar's second wife and son. The Reach has surrender and travel incognito to the Riverlands or any port will be really risky. (Yes, maybe they didn't have time because Lyanna was ill and then Ned show up, but I assume at least one knight will have leave the ToJ in order to protect their new king, if leaving was a better option).

Starfall is the best option: home of Dayne, with resources to sustain a siege and close to the coast to travel to Dragonstone or Essos. That's why I find OP theory plausible. Maybe they did left Jon there, maybe they didn't, but is clear that they have to protect Jon as their new king, even though than will put Lyanna's life on danger.

I also fin credible that the KG will proclaim Jon the new king and call the remain Targaryen loyalist (if there is any) to his cause. Yes, its absurd and futile, but they are the KG, they are suppossed to do the "right" and honorable thing first. They have vow to protect the king and his kingdom, and if Jon is incognito, he doesn't have any kingdom. I see why Lyanna, who is thinking more on Jon's life than his status as king, will ask Ned to kill these KG who would jeopardize the life of his baby in order to fulfill their vows. I see Ned's man attacking an unarmed or unprepared KG, and that's why 7 men (above-average fighters if you want) could kill three of the better fighters in Westeros. That's why he felt such remorse that drove him to return his sword to Starfall.

[corbon]

Several interesting points. However, I still have yet to hear it explained as to why, if Ned simply showed up to see his sister or even to retrieve her post-Rhaegar, that the honorable KG would find it a rational response to kill him instead. Why not let him see his sister (especially if she was dying)? Aerys is dead. Rhaegar is dead. The KG would feel it their duty to do the opposite of keeping an infant king hidden. So keeping Jon incognito isn't a likely answer. So there is obviously a deeper reason behind it.

You don't allow one of the leaders of the rebellion, a man who recently led the rebels in the Sack of Kings Landing and is therefore responsible for the brutal murders of Rhaenys and Aegon Targaryen, to even know about, let alone go in and see, an infant king.

Especially an infant king with no court, no army, and no major supporters, currently hiding in an isolated tower in teh middle of nowhere.

Keeping him incognito is very much the answer. And safer even more.

Also, we need to keep in mind the Edric Dayne thought it very odd that Arya had never before heard the name Ashara. So the story was certainly in the Dayne family lore. Point being I find it a bit of a stretch to think that Arthur would not have known who Ned was at the ToJ when his as yet unborn nephew knew of him in intimate detail through his aunt, Ashara's sister.

Arthur almost certainly did know who Ned was at that point.

However, Ned Dayne knows very little, and its far from certain, perhaps not even likely, that his 'knowledge' is "Dayne family lore". Ashara Dayne's sister Allyria was almost certainly not around back then (she has been betrothed 6 years to a mid-20s Lord with a good family relationship and not yet married, which strongly argues she is still underage, certainly not the mid-late 20s or older she'd need to be to have been cognisant of the goings on pre-rebellion, which is 18-19 years back now. Its actually quite possible she is in fact really Ashara's not-actually-stillborn bastard daughter, claimed by Ashara's mother for honour's and the child's sake. And what Ned Dayne claims not only has a dubious source, but its internally inconsistent. Ned and Ashara were in love, but Ned was fucking Wylla? Ned, who according to his foster brother Robert was always the same honour-bound stiff we know now?

Ned Dayne doesn't know anything about the past, before he was born. He's just been feed mixed up stories from unreliable sources.

And where does Wylla, the Dayne's wet nurse come into it? I assume that the KG would not let a feverish woman nurse a newborn king even if she were his mother. Assume then that Jon needed a wet nurse when Lyanna became ill.

Better yet, assume that these people have a brain, and they have prepared a wetnurse before the birth, as most nobles do. Not just for cosmetic and dynastic (ready fro breeding again faster) purposes, but because if you need one, you need it immediately - you don't have time to spend days or weeks finding a suitable woman while the baby starves.

Would they take Jon to Starfall or go to Starfall, get Wylla, then come back? Seems the former more likely as it would take half the time. If Wylla is at the ToJ does Ned take her and an infant at hard ride to Starfall to return Dawn? Or does he leave Jon and Wylla alone or with Reed only at the ToJ after they pulled it down? Or for that matter do they pull down the ToJ and build cairns for the fallen all while a wet nurse and a crying baby are with them? Again, I say it seems far more likely given the actions of Ned and the KG that Jon was not at the ToJ when Ned arrived.

Wylla is (almost certainly) already at ToJ. She, and possibly a (very) small number of other servants and similar satisfy the "they" who found Ned holding Lyanna.

So, the baby is already cared for, as much as it is possible.

Its a small matter for Ned, Howland, at least 10, probably more, horses, and maybe a nameless servant or two, to pull down the tower and build the cairns. Remember, Ned is a senior noble, responsible for building, maintaining and destroying castles and should be a fairly well trained military engineer, at least in this respect.

There is no reason or logic that all three KG would be at ToJ unless baby Jon is there.

The only argument against is that one of the KG at least would remain with Jon at Starfall. But why? Arthur presumably knows the people there and would be comfortable with the qualities of the household guard at least enough to know whether the presence of one more knight would make even an iota of difference. His sister and brother were both there. It was at the borders of Dorne which remained loyal to the Targs. So Jon was well protected and a KG escort, even if only one, would be superfluous.

Superfluity is not relevant. The KG don't pass their job to someone else. If Jon is the King, then one of them stays with him regardless on anything else.

If he's not the king then Viserys is, and the three of them do not all ignore Viserys (and Jon) in favour of protecting a dead prince's wife or mistress.

If they had any intent to protect Lyanna though they would need all their strength as the ToJ was not a defensible structure (two men pulled it down after all). So in that context the decision doesn't seem outlandish.

Lyanna is not important. Even if that was Rhaegar's last order to them, he is dead, the King (Aerys) is dead,, the heir is dead, the heir's heir is dead, there is a new King now and either he is Viserys or Jon. Either way, protecting Lyanna is now a relative irrelevance compared to protecting that new king.

And as for the magical Howland Reed. Meera describes her father as knowing "the magics of the crannogs" and that he could "change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word" and "make castles appear and disappear." To me this sounds like Howland Reed has the power of suggestion (I assume that he cannot actually do these things but rather is more of an illusionist). So, assuming that Howland Reed was with Ned to see the bodies of Rhaegar's children (easy assumption) then he could convey this image to Arthur as the fate that awaits Jon if he persists in proclaiming him king. Either that or he is the ultimate crannog ninja badass that defeated the mightiest warrior in living memory. He was roughed up by some simple squires of common knights though so I question the ultimate warrior scenario.

I'd go further. The 'magics' of his people are stealth, camoflage, tracking, marsh lore and the like, not actually magic for the most part. He 'magicked' his way past the Twins, or so the Freys would no doubt claim, but really it was just being quiet in a small boat on a dark night. The making castles appear and disappear is just understanding the floating island and its movements that Greywater Watch is built on. The water to earth and earth to water with a whispered word is just understanding hidden marsh trails where one misstep leads to being sucked into the bog. Etc etc.

There is no need to invent a new magical system for HR to know the future and be able to convey that to Arthur and do it well enough to convince him to betray his vows.

I want to adress the actions of the KG (which I believe is the key to understand what happen in the ToJ with the little information we have) takin into account that they are suppossed to be the most honorable men in Westeros and truly loyal Kingsguards.

The KG have vow to protect the king, which is Aerys II (they could only obey and protect the royal family, if it doesn't contradict the King's orders). Why does the the LC Hightower, Dayne and Whent weren't at the King's side before the Sack? Well, they probably never thought that Tywin will attack the city, that Aerys will open the gates and that Jaime will kill Aerys. So, ok, it could be in-characther that they were at the ToJ, but only if Aerys haven't call them back to KL. (I'm disregarding any theory about a plot to overthrow Aerys II, in which the KG was involved).

1. Its likely that they didn't have much information about what was going on in the war and KL until after the Sack. They are not on the raven network so they have no source of quick news.

2. After the Sack the rebels almost certainly disseminated the news of the end of the Taragaryen dynasty, the victory in the war, the death of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon and the ascension of King Robert as soon and as widespread as possible. Its likely that a secret supporter of the ToJ crew (someone had to be on the outside, supplying logistics, a wetnurse etc etc) received that news and passed it on.

3. Aerys was protected by 5KG, Rhaegar had 2. Aerys sent Hightower to find Rhaegar and get him to come back and take command. Hightower successfully completed that mission, but did not return, we can only speculate why. That still leaves Aerys and Rhaegar with 4 KG and 3 at the ToJ. There is no reason for those 3 to break orders and return to KL. Most likely the next major news they heard was the report of the Sack, the Trident and the ascension of King Robert all at once.

If Aerys also named Viserys his heir over Rhaegar, as claimed in the world book, its likely these 3 KG did not get this news either. VAerys did not know their location, and its unlikely Rhaegar supporters would find any particular urgent need to pass this on.

So, Aerys never call them back or news never reached them, the fact is, Rhaegar depart towards KL and left the three knights in the ToJ. Assuming R+L=J is true. After the Trident and the Sack, Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead, so the heir of the crown is Rhaegar's only boy: Jon. The KG didn't protect Jon only because he was of the royal family or because Rhagear told them; they did because Jon is their king (Assuming he is not a bastard, if not, Viserys is and they should have try to reach him).

See above.

Now the question is how they can protect their infant king, and probably the queen mother, from the rebel's rage? They could go back to Dorne, who was an ally, but Doran and Oberyn could resent that the three KG were not anywhere near Elia and her children to protect them, in order to guard Rhaegar's second wife and son. The Reach has surrender and travel incognito to the Riverlands or any port will be really risky. (Yes, maybe they didn't have time because Lyanna was ill and then Ned show up, but I assume at least one knight will have leave the ToJ in order to protect their new king, if leaving was a better option).

Dorne cannot afford to stand against the otherwise united Westeros against Robert, especially with its army already defeated at the Trident. They cannot calim sanctuary from Dorne (even more so if they are claiming it on behalf of Lyanna and her child, who is not at all Dornish and against whom the Dornish may well harbour considerable enmity.

I also fin credible that the KG will proclaim Jon the new king and call the remain Targaryen loyalist (if there is any) to his cause. Yes, its absurd and futile, but they are the KG, they are suppossed to do the "right" and honorable thing first. They have vow to protect the king and his kingdom, and if Jon is incognito, he doesn't have any kingdom. I see why Lyanna, who is thinking more on Jon's life than his status as king, will ask Ned to kill these KG who would jeopardize the life of his baby in order to fulfill their vows. I see Ned's man attacking an unarmed or unprepared KG, and that's why 7 men (above-average fighters if you want) could kill three of the better fighters in Westeros. That's why he felt such remorse that drove him to return his sword to Starfall.

The KG at ToJ were armed and ready. They waited, with their cloaks blowing in the wind. Dayne had Dawn, and Whent was on one knee sharpening his sword (no doubt unnecessarily).

Its an OK Corral showdown, they were ready. 7 competent fighters against 3 is almost insurmountable odds in real life, no hollywood bullshit here. And they nearly won anyway, they were just that good.

[Ygrain]

I would only add that keeping Jon incognito is the very scenario that we see with fAegon - keep him secret, keep him safe, train him well, and then return with vengeance to claim his own.

[Anthony Morris]

That could explain it, but I don't think the sword was his only reason for going there. And why haven't we seen any other mention of Dawn since he returned it? It could be that it was never returned, and just part of the story.

Bit off topic I know but GRRM has said that dawn remains at star fall untill another sword of the morning arises . So I take it you have to be "worthy" of wielding her .

I often wondered what would have happened if only Ned turned up at the ToJ ?

Do you think he would have been admitted to see Lyanna and crown prince Jon ? Or slaughtered where he stood even tho he was future kings uncle ??

[Ser Knute]

I think part of the mystery around the TOJ and the KG is that Rhaegar had already discussed a regime change from within with very close confidants, likely Arthur, perhaps Hightower or other KG were let in on it later? Had Rhaegar lived and put down the rebellion, wasn't it his intention to have a council gathered to remove Aerys? So, it would also stand to reason that it's likely that at least one (Arthur probably) KG knew of not only Rhaegar's short-term plans should he succeed and live, but I'd also think he'd convey some orders should he fall. I think within those two elements the events surrounding the TOJ are fully understood.

[Ygrain]

I think part of the mystery around the TOJ and the KG is that Rhaegar had already discussed a regime change from within with very close confidants, likely Arthur, perhaps Hightower or other KG were let in on it later? Had Rhaegar lived and put down the rebellion, wasn't it his intention to have a council gathered to remove Aerys? So, it would also stand to reason that it's likely that at least one (Arthur probably) KG knew of not only Rhaegar's short-term plans should he succeed and live, but I'd also think he'd convey some orders should he fall. I think within those two elements the events surrounding the TOJ are fully understood.

Not completely, unless Rhaegar had a contingency plan for not only his own death but also the death of Aerys and Aegon as well as the death or defection of all the other KG.

[JaimetheConciliator]

Nothing, but that's not relevant. He may have known, he may not have. Until he knew of Jon's existence, he's no threat to Jon. Once he knows of Jon's existence, he knows Jon is his nephew.

OK. I'm still very lost. Let me ask it in another way.

What is even the slightest of reasoning by someone, that has been given, that Ned might perhaps want to kill his nephew regardless of his identity.

I'm unfamiliar with the basics of this theory, and those basics were what I meant to ask about.

[UnmaskedLurker]

OK. I'm still very lost. Let me ask it in another way.

What is even the slightest of reasoning by someone, that has been given, that Ned might perhaps want to kill his nephew regardless of his identity.

I'm unfamiliar with the basics of this theory, and those basics were what I meant to ask about.

I am not sure I understand your question, but let me try to answer what I think you are asking. Ned is the leader of the rebellion which just killed the King and installed Robert as the new King. The KG are loyal to the Targ dynasty, and thus they consider Ned the enemy. Yes, the KG likely know that Lyanna is Ned's sister, but the KG cannot take any chances regarding what Ned might do. I believe that the KG consider Jon to be the King. Protecting Jon is the primary duty of the KG at that time. Ned is the best friend of the Usurper and a leader of the rebellion. Jon is a threat to the rebellion because Jon is a potential alternative king that people might rally behind. Eliminating Jon might be viewed as a primary goal of the rebellion. So the KG cannot risk what Ned might do with Jon. He might not kill Jon directly, but Ned might take Jon to Robert and then Robert might kill Jon. Who knows? The KG don't know what Ned will do -- only that Ned is an enemy of the Targ dynasty, and Jon is the rightful heir to the Targ dynasty. In the minds of the KG, those facts alone are enough to make Ned the enemy of Jon -- regardless that Jon is Ned's nephew. The KG simply cannot trust Ned or take a chance regarding what Ned would do with Jon.

Does that answer your question?

[Minuteman]

There is no reason for the KG to assume Ned is there to kill Lyanna or Jon. After all, Ned is likely already known to me an honorable man and there is nothing lower than a kinslayer. Lyanna likely would have ordered them to allow her brother to pass assuming she was lucid. Therefore there is no reason at first to protect either from Ned. The Jon Con hiding fAegon analogy is a poor one because Jon Con was not KG and had no oaths to uphold but rather just a sense of duty to restore the monarchy.

Whatever the disagreement it was sufficient to kill and die over. The argument to me that makes sense is "Jon is the king and must be declared" vs. "declare Jon the king and he will certainly die." This is something that I can see lead to combat between honorable men both doing what they believe to be absolutely right.

And I still maintain that Howland Reed likely has an actual power of illusion. Greywater Watch cannot be found because it moves. More like there are illusions that cause directions and paths to appear different similar to the House of the Undying (you can't always go up and left and return to where you started unless your mind is being tricked). This I think is the "crannog magic" Meera is referring to.

And again, with regards to the KG being at the ToJ and Jon's whereabouts at the time. Would Jon be safer at Starfall without any KG around him but behind strong walls and a full castle garrison or would he be safer at the ToJ with three KG? If people want to assume that Jon was there because the KG were then fine but why would the KG have Jon be there at all after the sack of KL? The ToJ was destroyed by Ned to make cairns for his five fallen and the three KG. It wasn't a strong structure. So from a strictly defensive point of view Jon was far safer at Starfall without the KG than he would have been at the ToJ with the KG there. But Lyanna couldn't be moved so she had to be there. As they seem to have oaths to protect the kings' family as well as the king himself to me it makes sense that they would all be at the weak ToJ rather than one or more at Starfall if Jon was in fact there.

[UnmaskedLurker]

There is no reason for the KG to assume Ned is there to kill Lyanna or Jon. After all, Ned is likely already known to me an honorable man and there is nothing lower than a kinslayer. Lyanna likely would have ordered them to allow her brother to pass assuming she was lucid. Therefore there is no reason at first to protect either from Ned. The Jon con hiding fAegon analogy is a poor one because Jon con was not KG and had no oaths to uphold but rather just a sense of duty to restore the monarchy.

See my post #56 above. The KG don't have to assume Ned was there to kill Lyanna or Jon. The KG simply know that Ned is the leader of the rebellion and thus enemy to the Targ dynasty. Jon is the heir to the Targ dynasty. Thus the KG must consider Ned an enemy and take no chances. The KG know nothing of Ned's reputation -- Ned is too young at that point to have a reputation other than as a leader of the rebellion that just sacked KL. So the KG cannot trust Ned and must consider Ned an enemy and mortal risk to Jon.

Whatever the disagreement it was sufficient to kill and die over. The argument to me that makes sense is "Jon is the king and must be declared" vs. "declare Jon the king and he will certainly die." This is something that I can see lead to combat between honorable men both doing what they believe to be absolutely right.

The KG don't need to have a "disagreement" with Ned. All the KG need is to know that Ned is leader of the rebellion against the Targ dynasty -- and thus a risk to the heir to the Targ dynasty, Jon. Those facts are enough to kill and die over.

And I still maintain that Howland Reed likely has an actual power of illusion. Greywater Watch cannot be found because it moves. More like there are illusions that cause directions and paths to appear different similar to the House of the Undying (you can't always go up and left and return to where you started unless your mind is being tricked). This I think is the "crannog magic" Meera is referring to.

I don't think it really matters whether HR is "magic" or not. Perhaps HR has some "magic" that allowed him to distract Arthur and allow Ned to kill Arthur. But putting some vision in Arthur's head that convinces Arthur to give up his own life is basically fan fiction. Why would Arthur believe such a vision was anything other than a trick in any case? This line of argument has no real basis in the text and makes no sense to me (even if HR has "magical powers" -- the theory still makes no sense).

And again, with regards to the KG being at the ToJ and Jon's whereabouts at the time. Would Jon be safer at Starfall without any KG around him but behind strong walls and a full castle garrison or would he be safer at the ToJ with three KG? If people want to assume that Jon was there because the KG were then fine but why would the KG have Jon be there at all after the sack of KL? The ToJ was destroyed by Ned to make cairns for his five fallen and the three KG. It wasn't a strong structure. So from a strictly defensive point of view Jon was far safer at Starfall without the KG than he would have been at the ToJ with the KG there. But Lyanna couldn't be moved so she had to be there. As they seem to have oaths to protect the kings' family as well as the king himself to me it makes sense that they would all be at the weak ToJ rather than one or more at Starfall if Jon was in fact there.

If Jon would be safer at Starfall, then everyone would have been safer at Starfall. But they did not go and hide out at Starfall -- they stayed at ToJ. Whatever reason kept Lyanna at ToJ rather than Starfall before Jon is born is the same reason Jon is not brought to Starfall. I believe the KG have allies at Starfall, but having allies is not the same as being able to trust everyone at Starfall. Bringing Jon to Starfall to be guarded by a non-KG would be too risky. With the rebels having just won the war, Starfall likely would be even less safe. Rhaegar and Lyanna stayed hidden at ToJ for a reason. Moving to Starfall was not an option then, and would not suddenly become an option later. So Jon was not safe at Starfall because there must have been someone there who would realize a baby arrived that did no belong there and might tell someone. Someone at Starfall could not be trusted. Even if Lyanna could not be moved then, she could have been moved much earlier in her pregnancy, and she wasn't. She wasn't because Starfall is not entirely safe.

[Minuteman]

If Jon would be safer at Starfall, then everyone would have been safer at Starfall. But they did not go and hide out at Starfall -- they stayed at ToJ. Whatever reason kept Lyanna at ToJ rather than Starfall before Jon is born is the same reason Jon is not brought to Starfall. I believe the KG have allies at Starfall, but having allies is not the same as being able to trust everyone at Starfall. Bringing Jon to Starfall to be guarded by a non-KG would be too risky. With the rebels having just won the war, Starfall likely would be even less safe. Rhaegar and Lyanna stayed hidden at ToJ for a reason. Moving to Starfall was not an option then, and would not suddenly become an option later. So Jon was not safe at Starfall because there must have been someone there who would realize a baby arrived that did no belong there and might tell someone. Someone at Starfall could not be trusted. Even if Lyanna could not be moved then, she could have been moved much earlier in her pregnancy, and she wasn't. She wasn't because Starfall is not entirely safe.

Lyanna was with Rhaegar until he was called to the Trident. By that time Lyanna would have been great with child and not likely in condition to travel (especially if the pregnancy was a hard one). Afterward she was too sick to move. Once word reaches them that Rheagar, Rhaegars children, and Aerys are dead and assuming they consider Jon the king then their duty is first to the kings personal safety and after to his family. I find it extraordinary to believe they would have kept Jon at the ToJ when Starfall was relatively nearby and Dorne remained loyal.

And it isn't the KGs duty to kill rebels on site. Many times they were expected to entreat with rebels and accept their surrender. Robert's wasn't the only rebellion during Aerys' reign. If Lyanna's brother showed up to speak with Lyanna and Lyanna ordered them to let him pass then the KG would have certainly done so. They probably would have let him speak to her even if she was in delirium as he was her brother, he may comfort her, and most importantly because he was not there to do her harm. You're scenario requires that Ned arrive and the KG immediately demand he surrender to the king or die. Ned would say what king? To which they would say Jon or whatever his name is and he is the new kings uncle. Ned would certainly say I must speak with my sister to which they say no you must die. Now who's writing fan fiction?

I'm simply trying to piece together what may have happened at the ToJ based on what is written and assuming that GRRM gave thought to the actions of all of the people there when he wrote their responses. And unlike many I am not assigning any special feature or function to Howland Reed that doesn't have some root in the books. Howland Reed was a weak fighter so whatever he did to stop Arthur from killing Ned wouldn't have revolved around his strength of arms.

And finally, as mentioned in the OP, I believe that Ned and Ashara were having a marriage arranged. I presume that Arthur Dayne would have learned more about a man who may become his brother by law from his brother or his sisters or Elia (whom his sister was maidservant to) or Rhaegar or Lyanna. So he didn't arrive at the ToJ as just another rebel. Or in your analysis Lyanna never once mentioend Ned or his character during the months she was in the KGs presence.

[Lord Varys]

When discussing the Tower of Joy we have to admit the following:

We don't know if Rhaegar/Lyanna went there on purpose or just ended up stuck there. For instance, they could have frolicked the countryside for quite some time (in the Riverlands and the Reach), and may have originally intended to cross the mountains when Lyanna's pregnancy made further travel problematic. In such scenario it is entirely likely that they were originally trying to reach Starfall.

The idea that this place was their final destination makes no sense at all to me. They wouldn't be safe there from Aerys, Robert/Ned and the rebels, or Prince Doran.