The show isn’t diverting from the books that much after all.

[robasp2]

How do you know there won't be a line? I'd expect she will need to explain to Daario why she did it for example....

Good then, but we are in Ep5 now and I am speaking about now.

If they do explain it, I will correct myself. I'm not arrogant.

(This is not the only incoherent stuff in the show at the moment. Plenty more)

Ok maybe I'm a bit overreacting but DgD set the standards so high. Whrn they begin to act like children writing their first short story, It saddens me.

[StepStark]

I'm a bit confused by this talk about made up storylines. I'm by no means a fan of stuff like MissWorm, but they've had what, 3 short scenes this season. Sam/Gilly/Shireen got one scene of pure fluff and some last minute foreshadowing of the Stone Men.

I mean, all in all the filler of the show is very, very little compared to the books', where we got chapter upon chapter of Brienne doing jackshit, Jaime having dinner with randos, Alys Karstark, the Cinnamon Wind, etc.

And sure, sometimes the show does have longer sequences of filler, probably like the upcoming detour to Hardhome, though who knows. And granted, some of that is godawful (Yara's Dog Day Afternoon, for example), but most of this filler/merging is the natural result of GRRM writing 2 humongous tomes without an ending and only the vaguest semblance of plot.

So, of course, the execution of D&D is terrible, but it's not like they had a whole lot of options. They just couldn't have Jaime having dinner with randos for an entire season before he meets Brienne and buggers off at the season finale. They couldn't have Sansa describing the Lords Declarant for an entire season before Littlefinger reveals her plan and we cut to credits. That was just a no go. They couldn't have Jon talking to fucking Alys Karstark before the Ideas of Olly. That was a no go.

They had to come up with something for the characters to do, so it was either dipping into WoW material (like with Arya), benching a character for the whole season (like with Bran), or merging and making stuff up (like with Sansa).

And I'm sure as hell glad they went with the third option because that way it doesn't spoil WoW more than it should.

You keep saying this all over forum but it really doesn't make it any more true. When I see people saying that nothing happens in AFFC or ADWD and that characters do nothing in AFFC or ADWD I really wonder did you even read this books? If you say Brienne did nothing in AFFC than I have to wonder did you really read that book. She travels a lot, she meets a lot of people, she hears many interesting stories, she has couple of big fights, she finds interesting facts for example that Arya is alive, and she end up in hands of LS who wants to kill her, and then in ADWD she sets Jaime to be killed by LS. Calling that nothing is little disingenuous. It is one thing not to like it for whatever reason but to say that Brienne did nothing is absurd really. And by the way her chapters would make great TV material. Fight at Whispers for example could be fantastic and also Randyll Tarly with his cruelty and arrogance and also that orphans she meets and meeting Gendry. Also Pod: instead of her constant snaps at him it would be much better if he followed her from distance at first and only then she captures him and he tells her who he is, like in the books. And about Jaime's chapters in Riverlands again I have to ask did you read them at all. Jaime hangs people for rape and saves Pia and deals with bloodthirsty Freys while insulting them all the time and they want to hang Edmure and he saves him and then threatens him and then there's negotiations with Brynden... All that would make superb TV material and much much better then this nonsense with Dorne.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

dp

[Valetudo]

How do you know there won't be a line? I'd expect she will need to explain to Daario why she did it for example....

A line now won't make any difference because the deed is done. Even if Daario disagree, there's nothing he can do now. While Jon proposed his idea at a Nights Watch reunion, where a discussion occurred before he set it in stone.

Exactly, there is an inability to accept that the TV show is an adaptation of, not a line by line rereading of the book - implicit in these comments is a presumption of ownership - "how dare this be done to our books"

What would such people make of the TV/ Filmic adaptations of classical literature- like War & Peace?

Oh sure people talk about the changes causing flaws in the tv show on its own merits that non book readers can pick up on, but that simply doesn't hold water. Again, find me an tv series with more coherence over a similar timescale...

1)Have you actually read most of the complaints! Most of them are NOT about book to show changes.

2) If you really believe GoT is the most coherent tv show ever, it explains a lot of things.

And even if it was, you're basically telling that GoT can be bad because the other shows are shittier!

Good logic!

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

You keep saying this all over forum but it really doesn't make it any more true. When I see people saying that nothing happens in AFFC or ADWD and that characters do nothing in AFFC or ADWD I really wonder did you even read this books? If you say Brienne did nothing in AFFC than I have to wonder did you really read that book. She travels a lot, she meets a lot of people, she hears many interesting stories, she has couple of big fights, she finds interesting facts for example that Arya is alive, and she end up in hands of LS who wants to kill her, and then in ADWD she sets Jaime to be killed by LS. Calling that nothing is little disingenuous. It is one thing not to like it for whatever reason but to say that Brienne did nothing is absurd really. And by the way her chapters would make great TV material. Fight at Whispers for example could be fantastic and also Randyll Tarly with his cruelty and arrogance and also that orphans she meets and meeting Gendry. Also Pod: instead of her constant snaps at him it would be much better if he followed her from distance at first and only then she captures him and he tells her who he is, like in the books. And about Jaime's chapters in Riverlands again I have to ask did you read them at all. Jaime hangs people for rape and saves Pia and deals with bloodthirsty Freys while insulting them all the time and they want to hang Edmure and he saves him and then threatens him and then there's negotiations with Brynden... All that would make superb TV material and much much better then this nonsense with Dorne.

Re Brienne, we had two seasons of Arya seeing the ruined Riverlands...and you think another season of Brienne seeing that would be a good idea???

[Fjordgazer]

Re Brienne, we had two seasons of Arya seeing the ruined Riverlands...and you think another season of Brienne seeing that would be a good idea???

Yet another complaint i've had with the show is that weve seen nearly nothing of the consequences of war, especially on the smallfolk. Only that old man presumably attacked by Polliver's band ("nothing is nothing" scene :rolleyes:), and that's it. The Sparrows emerge from out of the blue because of this.

I don't think a whole season of Brienne wandering the Riverlands was doable, but certainly there were a few things from the books to draw out which would be better than following Sansa's tail the way she's done, which bores me to no end. Not to mention the cherry on the cake, which is... Batsignal!

Nanananananananananananananana...

BRI-ENNE!!!

Nanananananananana...

Which is a plot element that looks made up by a 4th grade boy.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

A line now won't make any difference because the deed is done. Even if Daario disagree, there's nothing he can do now. While Jon proposed his idea at a Nights Watch reunion, where a discussion occurred before he set it in stone.

1)Have you actually read most of the complaints! Most of them are NOT about book to show changes.

2) If you really believe GoT is the most coherent tv show ever, it explains a lot of things.

And even if it was, you're basically telling that GoT can be bad because the other shows are shittier!

Good logic!

Any explanation to Daario is not to seek input- the entire point of the dialogue with Missandei is that Dany might be better to make her own decision on matters rather than seek input....

Oh of course ALL the complaints are ultimately about show to book changes, of plot changes or characterisation, or the future trajectory of the plot versu what people hoped for

It all betrays a terror that if it goes on TV , then that changes the world readers have constructed in their own imagination, as if one's own personal interpretation was that susceptible to change.

Yes there is an acceptable level of coherence in a fictional TV series , and GOT is far and above that threshold. This childish fixation with absolute adherence to "Canon" of a fictional work, as if there was something real behind any of this...apart from Artistic creation. Its all make- believe folks!

For comparison - the movie Lincoln - you realise that played fast a loose with certain elements - of real historical facts. Does that diminish its value as an Artistic creation?

Or the TV series the Wire- McNulty's characterisation jumps around a bit between seasons- again does that affect the artistic value of the whole?

On any objective basis of literary adaptation to Screen, GOT is an incredible artistic success, but some of the commentary in these parts is what gives fandom a bad name.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

Yet another complaint i've had with the show is that weve seen nearly nothing of the consequences of war, especially on the smallfolk. Only that old man presumably attacked by Polliver's band ("nothing is nothing" scene :rolleyes:), and that's it. The Sparrows emerge from out of the blue because of this.

I don't think a whole season of Brienne wandering the Riverlands was doable, but certainly there were a few things from the books to draw out which would be better than following Sansa's tail the way she's done, which bores me to no end. Not to mention the cherry on the cake, which is... Batsignal!

Nanananananananananananananana...

BRI-ENNE!!!

Nanananananananana...

Which is a plot element that looks made up by a 4th grade boy.

think what can be repeated on page is going to look very repetitive on screen. Arya's entire arc from season 2 to season 4 covered this as much as would be practical before it would start to get very repetitive for viewers.

FWIW, that was one of my favourite aspects of that series, and getting Barry McGovern, one of the leading actors of Samuel Beckett plays, doing that old man scene, was pure catnip to me.

So including Jamie in the Dorne plot was a logical move and short of parking Brienne a la Bran, something had to be done with her. Let's see where the season goes before we conclude on how well it has worked - i don't care for the candle either though,

[StepStark]

Re Brienne, we had two seasons of Arya seeing the ruined Riverlands...and you think another season of Brienne seeing that would be a good idea???

We probably watch different shows then because I don't remember two seasons of Arya seeing ruined Riverlands. In season 2 we only saw Harrenhal and that's it. And by the way horrors in Harrenhal were much toned down compared to the books but OK. Then in season 3 only horror she sees is Red Wedding. In season 4 there is, like Fjordgazer said, only one scene with that old man and that stupid "nothing is nothing" dialogue. Oh and there is scene where Sandor beats and robs that man that helped them. And that's it. Ruined Riverlands are maybe the most neglected part in the show. And by the way Arya's Riverlands chapters aren't the same as Brienne's Riverlands chapters. Arya's are about horrors of war and Brienne's are about horrors that come after war. There is place for both, just like in the books.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

You keep saying this all over forum but it really doesn't make it any more true. When I see people saying that nothing happens in AFFC or ADWD and that characters do nothing in AFFC or ADWD I really wonder did you even read this books? If you say Brienne did nothing in AFFC than I have to wonder did you really read that book. She travels a lot, she meets a lot of people, she hears many interesting stories, she has couple of big fights, she finds interesting facts for example that Arya is alive, and she end up in hands of LS who wants to kill her, and then in ADWD she sets Jaime to be killed by LS. Calling that nothing is little disingenuous. It is one thing not to like it for whatever reason but to say that Brienne did nothing is absurd really. And by the way her chapters would make great TV material. Fight at Whispers for example could be fantastic and also Randyll Tarly with his cruelty and arrogance and also that orphans she meets and meeting Gendry. Also Pod: instead of her constant snaps at him it would be much better if he followed her from distance at first and only then she captures him and he tells her who he is, like in the books. And about Jaime's chapters in Riverlands again I have to ask did you read them at all. Jaime hangs people for rape and saves Pia and deals with bloodthirsty Freys while insulting them all the time and they want to hang Edmure and he saves him and then threatens him and then there's negotiations with Brynden... All that would make superb TV material and much much better then this nonsense with Dorne.

Many readers found AFFC/ADWD disappointing. It introduces tons of new characters and doesn't move old, favorites forward very much. There's too much travelling and new faces for a show of 10 episodes. These books are the least adaptable of the series so far. Your post is full of names that would have had to be introduced in a show where unsullied are already struggling to keep track of the characters. And the main thing you mention - LS hanging Jaime - is rather unlikely to happen. The only thing that has not been shown that is critical is many of Jaime's redemptive acts which will probably be shown in season 6.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

We probably watch different shows then because I don't remember two seasons of Arya seeing ruined Riverlands. In season 2 we only saw Harrenhal and that's it. And by the way horrors in Harrenhal were much toned down compared to the books but OK. Then in season 3 only horror she sees is Red Wedding. In season 4 there is, like Fjordgazer said, only one scene with that old man and that stupid "nothing is nothing" dialogue. Oh and there is scene where Sandor beats and robs that man that helped them. And that's it. Ruined Riverlands are maybe the most neglected part in the show. And by the way Arya's Riverlands chapters aren't the same as Brienne's Riverlands chapters. Arya's are about horrors of war and Brienne's are about horrors that come after war. There is place for both, just like in the books.

Whats witnessed on the road with Yoren

The torture of prisoners in Harrenhal.

The panorama of the burning riverlands after Arya and the hound kill Freys?

Fight with Polliver- Polliver's description of working for the Mountain

stealing from the Farmer and his daughter and the discussion thereafter

The "old man" scene- says a lot that an existential discussion goes whistling over your head.

Waht would you like- a massacre scene a week??

[Valetudo]

Oh of course ALL the complaints are ultimately about show to book changes, of plot changes or characterisation, or the future trajectory of the plot versu what people hoped for

Lets forget about the books and talk about show logic.

How is LF plan to marry Sansa logic or believable? If LF is betting on Stannis, why don't you actually join forces with him instead of joining the loosing side?

Why does Sansa accept to go on a suicide mission? Just because LF told her it was a way of avenging her family?

How is Myrcella's extraction plot believable? Jaime want's to go there alone not to start a war, we're told. What do you believe will happen if he succeed?

How is the Batsignal believable? What if Sansa needs help during the day? how are they going to see a little candle at the top of a tower? How does she even goes there in the first place without anyone noticing it?

Sansa is supposed to have turned into a "player", agreeing willingly into the marriage, but she's still giving Roose killing stares, not drinking to toasts and showing a smug face when something bad happens to Ramsey. Not suspicious at all.

This list could go on and on.

See, I've not talked even once about the books, but still all our complaints are about book changes, right?

But we're the ones with a childish fixation!

[Mithras]

Lets forget about the books and talk about show logic.

How is LF plan to marry Sansa logic or believable? If LF is betting on Stannis, why don't you actually join forces with him instead of joining the loosing side?

Because LF is lying to Sansa and she is not witty enough to see that. LF is betting against Stannis. What he told Sansa is not LF's real plan. Hmm, that sounds familiar.

Why does Sansa accept to go on a suicide mission? Just because LF told her it was a way of avenging her family?

Do not take it as the first stupid thing Sansa did. Why did she save LF's ass in the first place?

[robasp2]

Yes there is an acceptable level of coherence in a fictional TV series , and GOT is far and above that threshold. This childish fixation with absolute adherence to "Canon" of a fictional work, as if there was something real behind any of this...apart from Artistic creation. Its all make- believe folks!

For christsake, How many times should one say the queen can make her own decision. The problem is NOT that. Read the previous comments.

Who decides the threshold? You?

I have many friends who think the new Fast and furious was epic. I couldnt stand any of the extreme bullshit they showed. (Sorry fr the deviation)

Similarly a person watching GoT has their own threshold. S5 is below ours and we continue to bitch about it.

If it goes even lower, maybe you too will say "Hell I cant stand this".

Just dont go into generalizations.

[Valetudo]

Because LF is lying to Sansa and she is not witty enough to see that. LF is betting against Stannis. What he told Sansa is not LF's real plan. Hmm, that sounds familiar.

Do not take it as the first stupid thing Sansa did. Why did she save LF's ass in the first place?

1) If he's betting on the Boltons, it still doesn't make sense. Why join him before he resolved things with Stannis?

If you really wan't to make an alliance and help him in the battle to come, why don't you bring an actual army or at least use Sansa to unite some Northerners to your cause?

2) The situation you described didn't imply putting herself in harm's way or at least giving one of her most precious weapons - her maidenhead - away. It was actually the opposite. She chose to protect LF because she felt safer with him that with unknown Vale lords. And she's supposed to have grown from that decision (remember the Darth Sansa transformation?).

[StepStark]

Many readers found AFFC/ADWD disappointing. It introduces tons of new characters and doesn't move old, favorites forward very much. There's too much travelling and new faces for a show of 10 episodes. These books are the least adaptable of the series so far. Your post is full of names that would have had to be introduced in a show where unsullied are already struggling to keep track of the characters. And the main thing you mention - LS hanging Jaime - is rather unlikely to happen. The only thing that has not been shown that is critical is many of Jaime's redemptive acts which will probably be shown in season 6.

Alright then, this are all legitimate concerns but I'm sure you'll see that it's not the same as "nothing happens in AFFC" which is what I replied to. Yes some readers obviously didn't like changed focus on some secondary characters like Brienne and Ironborn for example, but also many readers liked it. And I think that it was great set-up for last two books in the same way as ACOK was great set-up for ASOS. What I disagree is that there is too many new names to be introduced because if you mean Freys they are only important as Freys. They don't have to be introduced in details. That is something the show already done with Dany's siege of Yunkai and all those persons that negotiate with her - we don't need to remember their names for example, they are important only as Dany's enemies. And Freys are important only as someone who frustrates Jaime and complicates his mission. And I think that delaying that for season 6 is one more mistake in the show, especially considering how stupid this Dorne arc looks to be.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

For christsake, How many times should one say the queen can make her own decision. The problem is NOT that. Read the previous comments.

Who decides the threshold? You?

I have many friends who think the new Fast and furious was epic. I couldnt stand any of the extreme bullshit they showed. (Sorry fr the deviation)

Similarly a person watching GoT has their own threshold. S5 is below ours and we continue to bitch about it.

If it goes even lower, maybe you too will say "Hell I cant stand this".

Just dont go into generalizations.

You think thats a deviation, wait for this..

There was some sort of weird parallel universe GOT type show going on in the pool hall i was in last night. Recognised one face of a guy from Jag and figured out it was this:

Dragons of Bloodsteel,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1264363/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_18

Now THAT, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls is what 1/10 looks like. But for about 50 folks on here apparently - Game of Thrones is just as bad as that.

this is what happens when you conflate genuine assessment of an artistic adaption with some sort of "you r@ped my vision" cri de couer.....

So by all means complain, but understand that the ones doing the hard complaining have gone way past rational assessment into the shadowlands of rancorous bitching.

[Valetudo]

You think thats a deviation, wait for this..

There was some sort of weird parallel universe GOT type show going on in the pool hall i was in last night. Recognised one face of a guy from Jag and figured out it was this:

Dragons of Bloodsteel,

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1264363/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_18

Now that, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls is what 1/10 looks like. But for about 50 folks on here apparently - Game of Thrones is just as bad as that.

THAT is what happens when you conflate genuine assessment of an artistic adaption with some sort of "you r@ped my vision" cri de couer.....

So by all means complain, but understand that the ones doing the hard complaining have gone way past rational assessment into the shadowlands of rancorous bitching.

Who's saying that GoT is just as bad as that?

You can criticize something without hating it.

GoT is still a great show, that doesn't mean that it's above all critics for it.

Stop generalizing and start reading the actual comments.

PS: If you wan't to use some foreign expression, at least spell it right.

[Johnsmith]

The show is not diverging, any endings, justifying those means? Through an understanding it will eventually get there wherever there is, meaning it has stayed on the same course throughout? An understatement for combining 2 books into 1 season, two lengthy tomes full of vastly detailed descriptions.

The histories, details, descriptions, character's, any thought processes found within the books led to a detailed story of what had happened is happening. Many of the details found, had been placed there from any introduction, referenced constantly throughout beforehand, explanations further built upon in the present story Gleaming through any appendix showing the characters detailed under their House descriptions often from found in the starting book. Presumably all the characters referenced, events spoken about needed descriptions. Providing an understanding of how the offered universe threaded together woven into a functioning fabric. Questionably who are we to judge what is relevant to that written story?

However what many people are questioning is why necessary information has been cut changed left out within the show. Further producing divergently something else Why many shown places and characters have seemingly disappeared. Certain characters, certain information has not been continuous to any of the prior concepts or reasoning shown. Often shown seen containing simplistic flaw in the structuring given, leaving many with even the simplest of questions.

[RedShirt47]

When I first heard about the direction they were taking this season I had a lot of misgivings but now I am happy with it, more or less. I quite like that there are stories where we don't know exactly where they are going, we can make educated guesses based on where the book characters end up but no more than guesses at this point.
It has the added bonus that we won't be spoilt on Vale, Riverlands or Iron Born plots from WoW.

The more I read here concerns about the Sansa storyline the more I think D&D's decision was genius.
Without the comfort blanket of book knowledge people are really fearing for Sansa. Much more so than they would for some random Red Skirt fArya.
This will also make Theon's rescue much more meaningful and redeeming. I am thinking this will happen between Wedding and Bedding - I don't see the show putting Sansa through too much there. I think Brienne will take the role of the Spearwife who helped Theon rescue fAyra. Will Brienne dress up like a washer woman to get into Winterfell? that could be funny.

Brienne's wanderings in AFFC work fine in books and we find out a lot about history and geography etc. But this would make terrible tv.

Often tv / movie adaptions don't adapt enough to the screen and end up being little more than key book scenes acted out with less flow and more gaps in the story. I like that they've taken book material which would make terrible tv if transferred directly and made it into a reasonably good show. It's not perfect but it doesn't deserve the hate it gets on these forums. The Rant and Rave thread is an echo chamber of bile and vitriol which I can no longer enter due to its foul atmosphere. I think if people stayed out of there their appreciation of the show would increase markedly.