Jon = Aegon

[hallam]

In what way was Aegon alive and present at the Harenhall Tourney? Any evidence or quote? (He in fact, was not present, nor did he exist yet.)

ETA: Second time this question has been posed and no answer. Those pesky facts can be so troublesome.

I took another look and you are right there, but I was also wrong about the date of the alleged elopement which is a year after the tornament. So the chronology still works.

One reason I find J=A more plausible is that it gives an explanation for introducing the knight of the laughing tree. Unless it is just pointless misdirection, the mystery knight is Lyanna. She is the only person who would need to conceal her identity. This explains why Rhaegar makes her queen of truth and beauty

Rhaegar/Lyanna definitely disappear after the birth of Aegon.

The only thing that is not explained is the Stark features and that seems a fairly small problem when the great houses of the seven kingdoms would surely be heavily intermarried.

Jon being a bastard might not matter to readers, but it would make a huge difference to Jon. Why would being Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's change Jon's situation with the night watch? Having always been a different person, having always been legitimate but not knowing it would make all the difference in the world. It would mean that he was the rightful king before he took the Nights Watch oath.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Is it me, or is there an overabundance of let's prove R+L=J is false now?

[JonisHenryTudor]

Except that in the actual books Aegon is older than Jon. At least a year older. And no one can mistake a two year old for a newborn almost the same age as Robb.

Well.....that is not entirely true...... My son was born with a heart defect, and he looked like a newborn until about 1, and even when he turned two people figured he was only 2 months at best. Not entirely the same as what you pointed out, but I figured I throw that out there.

In this case that is true....

[JonisHenryTudor]

We are not talking about who people prefer, we are talking line of succession.

Daenerys Targaryen would come before a Blackfyre or a Brightflame.

Well the goods news is Robert ended the dynasty, so the "line of succession" no longer exists for the Targs. It remains with the "Baratheons". So they can just fight it out by means of conquest and remake the line.

[ShelbySmythe]

1) It requires Rhaegar to be an adulterer and Lyanna either a rape victim or willing partner.

The first is the biggest problem for me. Rhaegar is presented as a paragon of princely virtue in all other respects. Running off with Lyanna is out of character. Raping her seems utterly preposterous. But why would Lyanna promised to Robert give herself to him?

Rhaegar may be presented as a paragon of princely virtue, but if we've learnt anything from this series, it's that no character is completely good or completely bad.

He may have been remember by many as a great man, but any man can make a mistake. Any man could forsake their wives for the ones they truly love.

It may have been out of character to run off with Lyanna, but did anybody truly know Rhaegar? Did anybody truly know his intentions? He may not have been the great hero that is remembered by many.

[Ygrain]

Looking through the thread, folk are only looking to save the appearances of R+L = J. They are not asking if there are other explanations.

You have gone through all the 100+ iterations? Wow, what a commendable deed. Or, at least, I hope you have clicked the links in the reference guide, to the essays on Jon's parentage. Or perhaps you didn't.

J = A fits the facts at least as well. Aegon is definitely alive and present at the Harenhall Tourney, so is Elia. We do not have a firm date for Jon's birth or any need for one.

If you did go through the R+L material, you would know that per GRRM, Aegon was about a year old at the time of the Sack, whereas Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany who was born 9 months after the Sack, i.e. Jon was born approximately within a month since the Sack. And, no, Aegon is not born yet at the time of the HH.

Unlike R+L = J, J=A does not require any Starks to behave perfidiously, Jon's parents are not to blame for Roberts rebellion, etc. Not only is the Baratheon line stripped of its legal right to the throne, it loses its claim to a moral right as well. Rather than acting justly, Robert is the betrayer.

Oh? Good guys cannot do any wrong? Cannot cause an incident that grows into a disaster?

Another area where J=A works much better is explaining Ned's reaction to finding out about the twincest. Under R+L=J, Jon is still a bastard and does not carry any weight as far as marriage value goes. Under J=A, the obvious solution to the government crisis is for Stannis to become king and Shireen to marry Jon/Aegon thus ensuring that the line has legitimacy under both the Targarean and Baratheon succession.

... under the Targ polygamy, Jon is still the heir, though.

If being a bastard didn't make a huge amount of difference, Gendry would be a player. He isn't.

See above.

[Mithras]

Is it me, or is there an overabundance of let's prove R+L=J is false now?

Let them try. It looks fun :drunk:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

We don't know Aegon's paternal or maternal grandmother. They could both be Starks for all we know.

We know that Elia had no Stark blood from the World book. Except if the Princess of Dorne had married a Karstark or Royce or minor Vale houses. We also know from GRRM that Aegon had Targ features.

We are not talking about who people prefer, we are talking line of succession.

Daenerys Targaryen would come before a Blackfyre or a Brightflame.

Which line of succession the one in Dany's head? Because only there, there is still a Targ line. Even then no a male Brightflame comes before Dany.

[ArabellaVidal]

The difference in age is a year. And in the books, nobody is looking for R+L = J.

Ned is passing the child off as his, not Lyanna's.

Looking through the thread, folk are only looking to save the appearances of R+L = J. They are not asking if there are other explanations.

J = A fits the facts at least as well. Aegon is definitely alive and present at the Harenhall Tourney, so is Elia. We do not have a firm date for Jon's birth or any need for one.

Unlike R+L = J, J=A does not require any Starks to behave perfidiously, Jon's parents are not to blame for Roberts rebellion, etc. Not only is the Baratheon line stripped of its legal right to the throne, it loses its claim to a moral right as well. Rather than acting justly, Robert is the betrayer.

Another area where J=A works much better is explaining Ned's reaction to finding out about the twincest. Under R+L=J, Jon is still a bastard and does not carry any weight as far as marriage value goes. Under J=A, the obvious solution to the government crisis is for Stannis to become king and Shireen to marry Jon/Aegon thus ensuring that the line has legitimacy under both the Targarean and Baratheon succession.

A year is a huge difference when it comes to babies. Jon is believed to be near the same age as Robb at Winterfell. Nobody would mistake the a two year old for a one year old either.

[ArabellaVidal]

Well.....that is not entirely true...... My son was born with a heart defect, and he looked like a newborn until about 1, and even when he turned two people figured he was only 2 months at best. Not entirely the same as what you pointed out, but I figured I throw that out there.

In this case that is true....

I did consider that Aegon could have been sickly but that doesn't sound like Jon, does it?

[NorthGirl]

It seems to me that there are rather too many problems with R+L = J

1) It requires Rhaegar to be an adulterer and Lyanna either a rape victim or willing partner.

2) The prince that was promised becomes illegitimate.

3) Ramsey, the product of rape is a sadistic torturer, Jon is the opposite.

4) For Jon to be the hero of the story and victor of the game of thrones, he has to have a better claim to the throne than Danny.

5) Aegon is accompanied by signs that he is the prince who was promised.

Even without the elaborations on these points, I can tell you why none of these objections are even remotely problematic for RLJ to be true.

1) Hello. Welcome to Westeros, feudal society that runs on self deception, aggrandising and hypocrisy. There is nothing that goes against the grain about a seemingly good man turning out to be an asshole or a monster.

2) That has no bearings whatsoever, the PTWP only was predicted to be a descendant of Jaehaerys II, nothing else. That doesn't change his blood or whatever ability that is needed. Others don't care about titles and neither do swords.

3) There are many children that were the product of rape and that don't turn out to be sadistic fuckers...I can't even take this argument seriously. Do you actually live in Westeros? Because I would like to think people in the 21st century know better than to believe this kind of nonsense.

4) Who says Jon has to be the hero of this story and win the throne? It's entirely possible he dies as a martyr or chooses to remain at the wall or becomes Dany's consort.

5) Those signs were interpreted by Rhaegar who also thought he himself was the PtwP and even Maester Aemon said at the end that he and Rhaegar were wrong, that Dany is the PtwP because the valyrian prophecy doesn't actually specify that it has to be a prince, it can also be a princess. Remember, we still don't know for sure if AA and PtwP are one of the same or two different people, also the PtwP is a Targaryen specific prophecy made by Daenys the dreamer.

Sorry but your objections are based on you believing JS is that Aragorn of this story and that Rhaegar can't have been wrong or a bad person. Doesn't hold up, sorry.

[Winterfell's Revenge]

Is it me, or is there an overabundance of let's prove R+L=J is false now?

Yup. I was just thinking the same. I think the fact that the show has now starting dropping hints about it has sent some people around the bend.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Is it me, or is there an overabundance of let's prove R+L=J is false now?

Τhat is what all the cools kids are doing!

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Not if he's dead, which "real" Aegon almost certainly is.

Please don't take this to mean I think fAegon = Aegon. I don't.

I am just saying, as far as anyone else knows Aegon has the best claim for the Targaryen Crown

[Northbound3.0]

Is it me, or is there an overabundance of let's prove R+L=J is false now?

Just wait until the show confirms it first. Then we will have people, from Dorne to the Wall, saying that the show isn't canon. That Martin, gave D&D false information. Or, even better; they will say Martin can change his mind and make it something else.....in the process, all but saying Martin is a shit writer, for going against every clue he left in the novels.

[jlk7e]

We don't know Aegon's paternal or maternal grandmother. They could both be Starks for all we know.

If fake Aegon was a Targ he would know that the only claim the family has to rule anything is control of the dragons and would have followed through to meet up with Danny.

Aegon's paternal grandmother is Rhaella Targaryen. His maternal grandmother is the reigning Princess of Dorne (thus, a Martell). It is true that we do not know who Aegon's maternal grandfather was, but it seems wildly unlikely he was a Stark. Most likely, he was from some cadet branch of House Martell. Furthermore, we know that baby Aegon had Targaryen features, while Jon does not.

[JetonGrajqevci]

If this theory is true it would mean that the show creators D&D answered "Elia Martell" when GRRM asked them who Jon's mother was -- which would be quite impressive given that they apparently guessed right. :D

Also, didn't the Mad King rape his wife who then became pregnant with Daenerys? I seem to remember a story about the King's Guard hearing struggle from their bedroom the night before the queen fled to Dragonstone.

[hallam]

Is it me, or is there an overabundance of let's prove R+L=J is false now?

Hey, I did a science degree at Oxford. The way you prove something is you look at the reasons it might be false. I also work in crime prevention. People try to set false trails to put the blame on others all the time.

The reason I don't think the monster R+L=J thread is worth much is because the only people who are flogging that horse are already completely bought into the theory. They are only looking for confirmation. Its like a religion where the established position is presented as a privileged 'truth' that has to be disproved.

Reading the books it is obvious that Jon's true parentage is a critical plot issue and I thought R+L = J was the case for quite a while. But looking at the reveals in the series makes me think otherwise.

It is clear that there have to be two hidden Targareans as the dragon has two heads. It is also just about as clear as it can be that Jon is one of them. Otherwise Ned's behavior makes no sense. Rheagar is the only plausible Targarean father for Jon. therefore R+<x> = J.

The difference between R+L = J and R+A = J isn't actually very much in terms of mechanics. Both theories have Lyanna dying shortly after Jon's arrival and Ned promising to look after Jon. Both theories have Lyanna being the knight of the laughing tree.

The only firm detail we have for Aegon is his birth at Dragonstone. This is one of the visions that Dany sees in the house of the undying which tells us that it is a really critical event but we don't know why.

Looking at the two theories there are a lot of problems with the <x>=L theory. It means that there is no resolution to the bastardry issue for Jon which is the key driver behind his decision to join the Nights Watch. It means that either Rheagar is a rapist or Lyanna betrayed her family. It justifies Robert's rebellion against the Targareans.

Another whole area of problems is the fact that the Kingsguard make a fight of it at the Tower of Joy rather than bend the knee or parlay. That does not make sense if they are protecting Lyanna alone because at that point Rheagar is dead and Ned is her brother. It makes no sense for them to keep her prisoner. Which is of course an argument for R+<x> = J. But if <x> = L, three members of the kingsguard are protecting the dead prince's mistress and her bastard child. That makes little sense. If J=A then the three members of the kingsguard are doing their job: they are guarding the true king. Their actions now make perfect sense.

Now that doesn't mean that we aren't going to see <x>=L be a plot line at some point. In fact I think that it has been placed quite deliberately so that Jon can become a Targarean and take on dragon riding duties before the final reveal.

There are only two issues folk have come up with against <x>=E and I don't think either is a strong objection.

The first objection is that if J=A he would be a year older than if R+L=J and 'people would notice'. Why people think this is a problem is a mystery to me because what Ned brings back to Winterfell is a child of unknown age that he claims as his bastard. Yes, people can tell the difference between a newborn and a one year old. But in the books nobody is looking for R+L=J. they are not going to look at Jon and say 'that's never Lyanna's child' because the idea would never occur to them.

The second objection is that in the books we are repeatedly told that Jon looks like a Stark. This is not mentioned repeatedly in the show, if at all. People tell Jon he acts like his father.

This isn't a problem in the books because there are presumably looks altering spells available at a price. Possibly this has something to do with Lyanna's death. But even if not, the great houses are closely inter-bred. Cersei and Jamie were offered to the Martells. Why is it so hard to believe that there isn't a Stark somewhere in the family tree? This is not a question of what is 'likely' for a Martell, if GRRM wants to make Elia's father a Stark, he can.

From a narrative point of view J=A makes much better sense. It allows the whole of Robert's rebellion to be re-interpreted. Rheagar was rebelling against his mad father before he killed his children. Perhaps Brandon and Rickard were part of that plot. Perhaps the Lannisters were as well. J=A allows the whole of that civil war to be rewritten so that Robert becomes a mere usurper rather than having any valid claim.

R+L=J introduces shades of grey. None of the characters involved are completely pure. But that is something that works much better at the middle of the book. Most people prefer a knockout at the end.

[Ygrain]

Funny, I didn't know that they taught such lax approach to studying resources at Oxford, not to mention cherrypicking. I think I have had enough here.

[hallam]

If this theory is true it would mean that the show creators D&D answered "Elia Martell" when GRRM asked them who Jon's mother was -- which would be quite impressive given that they apparently guessed right. :D

Also, didn't the Mad King rape his wife who then became pregnant with Daenerys? I seem to remember a story about the King's Guard hearing struggle from their bedroom the night before the queen fled to Dragonstone.

The fact that he considered the question so critical is a tell. R+L = J was being discussed on the Internet long before that conversation took place in fall 2006.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/8085-the-lyanna-rhaegar-jon-thread/

"What if... Stop me if this has been said before..."

If Lyanna was the answer, it wouldn't be much of a test. The novels have plenty of clues that point to Lyanna. We are told that R+L are an item and this led to the civil war.

Also note that the question was 'who is Jon Snow's mother'. If R+L=J then the critical parent would be his father.