Others too weak for end game?

[LordStoneheart]

I'm surprised so many people think the Others are the biggest big bad.

Not that they aren't going to be racking up a body count but I think the real bodies hitting the floor are going to be on account of the mad queen and her living WMD.

In fact I think the others might actually be coming to save the world from daenarys.

I'm continually surprised at the amount of people who think GRRM is in this for a big twist at the end like this.

He straight up said the Others were the biggest threat to Westeros. I guess that's not enough for people.

[Victor227]

Of course the Others are the biggest threat. I'd argue they're not the heaviest punchers right now, but when winter rolls in, and if their numbers of undead start to snowball, they represent the sole faction that aims to 'Game Over' Westeros.

If anyone else wins in the end, defeating all comers, it's business as usual, just with someone else's butt on the throne, or thrones. If the Others win, that's it, Westeros is being thrown into a brand new winter hell from which only some kind of legendary salvation can save them from.

[GoldHandTheGood]

It seems that the end villain of the books will be the Others. A threat that will unite men to fight it because it is so late. Bit from what we have seen of them, are they even a threat?

Sure they killed a few rangers and a load of wildlings but the rangers had no knowledge and wildlings had almost no weapons. Also, they got beaten by Samwell Tarly, only managing to directly kill two people so far and turning to dust with one wound. It seems like Stannis army of 3000+ wielding flaming arrows and dragonglass would deal with them fairly easily. Let alone dragons.

So, are they really threatening enough to pose a serious threat? Or am I missing something about them?

1. Undead army as well as their own forces.

2. Dragonglass is rare.

3. Men are not currently united, and may not even get a successful chance to do so before the others come.

4. I think we'll see more of the other's magic, powers etc. next book. I don't think we've seen everything they can do yet. They may be far more powerful than they've appeared so far.

5. It'll be the height of winter in a Westeros broken from war.

All this being said, I never imagined Grrm having an over-powered and nigh on undefeatable endgame enemy. Like men, the others will have their weaknesses, and are maybe even having their own internal conflicts, inter wars etc (It may just be a particular faction of others invading the 7K). An overly powerful enemy usually requires some deux ex machina, last minute discovery that gives the heroes the power to defeat it. This

,imo would never work in ASOIAF; it makes sense that the others have an exploitable weakness, once men know what to do, and have the right tools.

[Nolan Clegane]

A few posts back someone said they don't see the Others as the big bad threat. I agree with this. We don't know anything about them, what their motives are, why they are suddenly stirring... Why they could be silenced for thousands of years, but not defeated?!?!😮

Then you have Dany on the other hand. Obsessed with reclaiming Westeros, when the entire continent doesn't even consider her. She us going to bring he'll fire to Westeros and these mysterious ice creatures are going to be one of the only entities ready for her. I tend to believe this is why they've been so quiet, they are waiting for her.

[BitsOfBrains]

I'm continually surprised at the amount of people who think GRRM is in this for a big twist at the end like this.

He straight up said the Others were the biggest threat to Westeros. I guess that's not enough for people.

Its not.

If he did have a big plot twist (which we know he is capable of) do you really think he, decades before the end of the series, would be like, "But hey get this, turns out the ice zombies are just a balancing force to the excesses, institutionalized cruelty, and greed of man!"

I am all but positive the Children of the Forrest are more "Leprechaun in the Hood" Leprechauns than "Lucky Charms cereal" Leprechauns so why is it so hard to believe that The Others are more "True Blood" undead than "30 Days of Night" undead?.

[LordStoneheart]

Its not.

Pity.

I am all but positive the Children of the Forrest are more "Leprechaun in the Hood" Leprechauns than "Lucky Charms cereal" Leprechauns so why is it so hard to believe that The Others are more "True Blood" undead than "30 Days of Night" undead?.

Because nothing we've seen of them so far suggests anything further than entities who want to kill all humans, no grey area needed. And just about every quote from the author suggests they're nothing but evil also, including both the 93 letter and his own descriptions outside that. Plus, he also said he doesn't do shock-twists just because, and IMO that's exactly what would happen if he decided to try and make the Others less than an evil force.

[Crippledtank]

They are obviously "calling the banners" at this moment.

Harassing wildlings and what not.

As for the others being a response to dany I don't think tho makes sense as there was a long night 8000 years ago (or something like that) and I don't think dany was around back then.

The OThers are mysterious for a reason.

If we knew they had a certain objective it'd be less of a threat.

[LordStoneheart]

Harassing wildlings and what not.

This is my main problem with the Others as secret good guys or not wholly evil guys; their actions against the wildlings and the NW cannot be justified or explained in a way that believably makes them "grey." It's much more than "harassing." It's genocide.

As for the others being a response to dany I don't think tho makes sense as there was a long night 8000 years ago (or something like that) and I don't think dany was around back then.

Agreed. I'm fairly positive that idea comes about from either hatred of Dany, expecting a twist just because, or a combination of both.

[JonisHenryTudor]

This is my main problem with the Others as secret good guys or not wholly evil guys; their actions against the wildlings and the NW cannot be justified or explained in a way that believably makes them "grey." It's much more than "harassing." It's genocide.

Agreed. I'm fairly positive that idea comes about from either hatred of Dany, expecting a twist just because, or a combination of both.

Or they need to turn people in order to build an army? Men turn minds, Others turn bodies.

Robb could not have men whose minds/allegiance were elsewhere and fighting for him. He needed their allegiance to him. Bolton was not, and it ultimately led to Robb's death (not totally, but he was not betrayed by a loyal servant, so yes).

In the same way, the Others cannot have humans fighting for them, and they need the undead in order to build an army. The undead will likely be loyal. If they fear for their survival, they will prepare to fight.

That is a fair reason to offer. You may not like it, but it is. I am not necessarily arguing that it is the case, just that it is a justifiable answer. From their pov, they might see their actions as a means for survival.

[LordStoneheart]

That is a fair reason to offer.

As much sense as your post makes, it's not at all related to what you responded to in my post. I said their actions can't be justifed or explained in a way to make them grey characters. Your post did not refute that assertion.

"Hey, sorry for creating armies of the dead out of your people, but we need them to fight... your people."

You actually just made them look even more evil. :P

[Mithras]

... Bit from what we have seen ...

We didnot "see" every bit we "heard" about them so far.

Ice Spiders are still missing. No one knows what the dead things in the water are and what they are capable of. They are surely not the regular wights. We still have no idea to which extent the Others have the ability to affect the weather or if they had something to do with greyscale or other plagues. And if the Others have ice dragons too, things might be really nasty for the humans.

[Mithras]

"Hey, sorry for creating armies of the dead out of your people, but we need them to fight... your people."

Here is another one:

"We could not think of a better way to say that you humans should all pass South of the Wall"

[JonisHenryTudor]

As much sense as your post makes, it's not at all related to what you responded to in my post. I said their actions can't be justifed or explained in a way to make them grey characters. Your post did not refute that assertion.

"Hey, sorry for creating armies of the dead out of your people, but we need them to fight... your people."

You actually just made them look even more evil. :P

Well maybe I did.... :cheers:

But I was more or less getting at the idea that if they feel encroached upon they would build an army. For them, an undead army is the only loyal army. I certainly do not believe they sit their whimpering in the far north and suddenly send out ice rangers to turn the living into the undead, but I do wish we had more information on their purpose...

[Saint Saga]

A few posts back someone said they don't see the Others as the big bad threat. I agree with this. We don't know anything about them, what their motives are, why they are suddenly stirring... Why they could be silenced for thousands of years, but not defeated?!?!

Then you have Dany on the other hand. Obsessed with reclaiming Westeros, when the entire continent doesn't even consider her. She us going to bring he'll fire to Westeros and these mysterious ice creatures are going to be one of the only entities ready for her. I tend to believe this is why they've been so quiet, they are waiting for her.

Was not there an original sinopsis of the books, with Danny already tooking her throne, and being desperate to united all the the different factions to the threat of the others?

I remember something like that in a topic two months ago.

[Crippledtank]

First off.... Where the hell are these ice dragons coming from,..... Ice spiders we've heard of...... Undead polar bears check....... Undead humans we've got plenty in stock..... Undead horses are cheaper by the dozen..... Ice dragons.... There was ONE in a short story by the same author who has said that this story is not part of the ice and fire universe..... Unless I've missed something (which is entirely possible) no ice and fire texts suggest an ice dragon so please stop mixing ASOIAF with skyrim.

2nd there has been humans on an beyond the wall since it was built and the OThers haven't turned up til a few years ago (roughly when mance started uniting the wildlings I believe) plus there has been a long night before the wall?

3rd Assuming that both OTher raids (long night and the current/potential future one) are based off similar needs/points/objectives. It would seem we don't know of a common variable other than it's cold down south so why not?

I think old nan said something like they feed on men? But I believe they do control the temperature in a way (like an accelerator peddle on a car you can make the car go faster but you can't use that peddle to slow it down) sorry best definition I could come up with. Basically saying they can make it colder but they can't reverse it.

4th I honestly think they're worried that man might want to go north and north some more. Before man came, westeros had giants, cotf, and dire wolves for everyone but men are slowly edging them out of the world. This is where the OThers come in, they're enjoying staying in there cold wastelands (assumption) telling exciting tales of how they raced their ice spiders on an iceberg but one day a wildlings clan gets too close to their fortress of solitude.

Now the wildlings are screwed, why because they can't migrate south, when a clan gets too big they have to gain more territory for hunting/gathering for all the mouths of their clan. Eventually clans get forced south then west and east then it's either fighting for territory or....... Expand northward.

I believe the Others once held areas closer to where the wall is now until they got sick of man knocking on their doors so they hit back.

Now the WW were pushed all the way to the point of uncharted/unnamed lands and again wildlings are rocking up because they start doubting the WW exist or that they are now extinct (I'm not suggesting they're walking into an Others stronghold or something just getting close enough to be considered a threat.)

5th I like to think that the WW are similar to the cotf (that they seem to reproduce slowly) so that could explain the big gap in advances. (It's stated the nights watch managed to drive them back ALL the way to the lands of always winter I'm assuming they were harassing the WWs during this "chase")

So if we have a fantasy world with a lot of dead WW and a slow reproducing organism that have longer life expectancies than men then it could explain why it took so long to attack again (assuming there actual organisms not just magical snowmen)

6thWhy go all the way south?

1st of all how south did they go last time? Only the north seems worried about them? Only northern families see the NW as honorable? (Sounds like they went south but not as far as south goes). I've noticed the further south we go the less we hear phrases like "Others take him" etc

So generally

No ice dragon

Humans have always been around the location of the wall and more north! (Once the first men got there)

The Others either produce the cold or have amazing weather predicting technology/magic

Man is wiping out other ancient races plus slowly advancing on their territory

Have generally small numbers and reproduce slowly (similar lifespans of COTF or even longer)

Takes longer to reproduce armieS.

May not have the abilities/numbers to invade all of westeros but may be able to scare man to stay off their lawn

^all assumptions don't quote me :)

Seriously though whatever they're doing they're

Not rushing and obviously preparing well.... The fact they attacked the fist first and not the MASSIVE wildling buffet suggests they're still low numbered (maybe only in the wight department) and that they're not just attacking for the sake of it. It's planned an calculated. Possibly they thought they had to get the NW men before they retreated to the wall and assumed they'd have all spring to take out the wildling party (coz you know that massive wall)

So there are hints of the Others being not only tough but smart.

(If you haven't noticed I find the whole WW thing irresistibly intriguing)

[Mithras]

First off.... Where the hell are these ice dragons coming from,..... Ice spiders we've heard of...... Undead polar bears check....... Undead humans we've got plenty in stock..... Undead horses are cheaper by the dozen..... Ice dragons.... There was ONE in a short story by the same author who has said that this story is not part of the ice and fire universe..... Unless I've missed something (which is entirely possible) no ice and fire texts suggest an ice dragon so please stop mixing ASOIAF with skyrim.

It comes from the World Book and the fact that there is a giant constellation called Ice Dragon in the sky.

[lancerman]

Points going in the Others favor.

-Winter is Coming. When they arrive, Westeros will be in a weakened state, and will not be favorable for humans to overcome the elements. Most people will be trying to survive the winter. This does not bode well against and army of ice monsters who are probably emboldened by it.

-The War of the Five Kings has weakened the primary infrastructure of Westeros. The Starks are scattered, the Bolton's have a fragile hold on the North, the Baratheons were dealt blows by Renly's death and Stannis' defeat at the Blackwater, the Frey's are pariah's, the Lannister's are still reeling from Tywin's death and all the damage Cersei is doing, the Tyrell's are getting dragged into the politics of KL, and LF is scheming in the Vale. It's a fractured nation. If the Others showed up before book 1, Ned would have sent word to Robert. Robert would have raised his banners with all the men of the Stormlands, Dragonstone, Vale, Riverlands, Westerlands, North and I'm sure the Reach and Dorne would have followed suit. Now how the hell are they even going to have any chance of organizing something like that.

-The strife isn't over. Dorne is still scheming. Stannis and Roose are about to go to war further fracturing the North. Lady Stoneheart is still murdering left and right. LF is still causing damage. Aegon is mounting for an attack. Dany is waiting in the wings. That's more deaths, that's more bodies for the Others, that's more separation and distraction in Westeros.

-All those that died since Westeros has been plagued by War are just another zombie for the Others to use. The sight of every major battle. All the unburned bodies. Literally every region is just a recruitment ground for them.

-The primary weakness of the Others are as follows. Dragonglass, which is rare and the current politics of Westeros is likely hindering any ability to gather a significant amount. Valyrian Steel, a metal that is not only rare but is pretty much reduced to being an heirloom for nobel Houses, nobody knows how to make it, people are too terrified to go to it's place of origin to even figure out how. Maybe dragons fire, unfortunately there are only 3 baby dragons in the world, and we know better dragons have been killed by humans.

- The unknown. We currently have no idea what the Others numbers are at this point, and that's before you talk about all of Westeros' dead over the last year or so that will be joining their ranks, what there plan and point of attack is, the extent of their powers and abilities, any other surprises they might bring.

[BitsOfBrains]

Pity.

Because nothing we've seen of them so far suggests anything further than entities who want to kill all humans, no grey area needed. And just about every quote from the author suggests they're nothing but evil also, including both the 93 letter and his own descriptions outside that. Plus, he also said he doesn't do shock-twists just because, and IMO that's exactly what would happen if he decided to try and make the Others less than an evil force.

What about Cold hands?

I don't know that he is a good guy but he certainly isn't just a "kill all humans" type of guy.

It comes from the World Book and the fact that there is a giant constellation called Ice Dragon in the sky.

And also from the GRRM story called, "The Ice Dragon" which doesn't seem to fit entirely into the Worldsteros but maybe.

[Hayyoth]

I'm continually surprised at the amount of people who think GRRM is in this for a big twist at the end like this.

He straight up said the Others were the biggest threat to Westeros. I guess that's not enough for people.

Why would you be surprised? GRRM has said that the Others don't like humans much, he hasn't ever described them as purely evil. For the alternate theory read here

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

I think this, or a version close to this, is likely correct. Also if we take the TV show as canon (yeah I know) then the Others, well at least some of them, are transformed humans.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

I'm continually surprised at the amount of people who think GRRM is in this for a big twist at the end like this.

He straight up said the Others were the biggest threat to Westeros. I guess that's not enough for people.

Its people who hate Dany.