Renlys Rebellion

[Gibzit]

Stannis has the right.that's it,no more,no less.Renly would of been a shite king.stannis meant to scour the court clean, anyone who's read the books should know that in order to truly rule justly and fairly and without nepotism or cronieism,getting rid of little finger, varys etc is the only way to do just that.

Why? do you think Renly wouldn't get rid of LF and Varys? He knew who they were, .he sat with them in council and knew what they do.

[GallowsKnight]

It would be nice if people who argument that Renly rebelled because "he could" or "because he wanted to be the king" would explain why at first he tried to keep Robert on the throne, then actually tried to support Joffrey on the throne with Ned as regent and protector of the realm and only then rebelled himself. Combine that with his fear of Lannisters and Cersei's plans to "deal with him", how can anyone draw the conclusion that Renly rebelled out of lust for power? Do people not read the previous posts in these topics?

Because he says something like this when someone suggests he not be King.

"Robb will set aside his crown if you and your brother will do the same," she said, hoping it was true. She would make it true if she must; Robb would listen to her, even if his lords would not. "Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them."

Renly laughed. "Tell me, my lady, do direwolves vote on who should lead the pack?" Brienne brought the king's gauntlets and greathelm, crowned with golden antlers that would add a foot and a half to his height. "The time for talk is done. Now we see who is stronger."

[Shagwell Snow]

Renly never actually said he would of got rid of em(and never said he wouldn't) and even if he did I imagine,based on his scheming and treasonous bannerman,that he'd only replace them with similar sycophants.Stannis imo and based on text, has a clear sense of justice (harsh as it is) ,but most of all stannis promotes on merrit and takes advice from people despite birth/ social class.He doesn't lust for the throne or power, he just sees it as his duty being Robert's true heir.

[Dolorous22]

The North would of sat back and watched the two sides smash each other then see what strength remained. Until the IB attacked. I suppose Rob would of returned North and I like to think that with the help of HR and mountain clans he would be successful in reclaiming WF. By the time Rob gets home it's a terrible time to mobilize an army so he sits tight until spring. Perhaps by then the whole thing would of blown over or a very shrewd Renly and council may convince Stannis to negotiate (it's not impossible, Davos may of still risen in a Baratheon/Tyrell alliance and maintain his uncanny ability to sway Stannis' in moral dillemas). I don't think Roose would of been so bold without the Lannisters. Perhaps giving the Northmen one of the Lannister captives to sacrifice to their tree's would of eased the tension.

I know I need to factor in LF and Varys but I'd need another 3/4 cups of coffee for that.

[Alester Florent]

As I've mentioned in a number of previous threads, I think people often make the mistake of neglecting the timeline.

To take it roughly sequentially:

1. Robert dies; Renly flees King's Landing

2. Ned is arrested; summonses are issued to all lords

3. Robb calls his banners and begins marching south; the Lannisters overrun the Riverlands

4. Ned is and executed; Renly declares himself king; Robb liberates Riverrun

5. Stannis issues his notices of incest and declares himself king

6. Robb is crowned king

The answer to the question "why didn't Renly declare for Stannis?" can thus be found in the gap between 1 and 5. For the whole of that period, Stannis wasn't there to declare for, and the incest was unknown by everyone except Stannis and Ned. Renly had no way of knowing that Stannis would even oppose the Lannisters, let alone declare himself king, but the anti-Lannister faction was crying out for someone to take charge of it. As the king's brother and with a good deal of popularity and power, Renly inserted himself into that gap, presumably with the intention that he could pick up the support of the northerners. Unfortunately for that plan, Stannis also declared soon afterwards, dividing the Baratheon party and provoking the crisis which caused the northerners to crown their own king rather than sign on with one of them.

This is something I've never quite been able to reconcile and something which is all too often brushed aside in Stannis debates: Stannis is almost inexplicably tardy in his reaction to Robert's death despite being the best-prepared (non-Lannister) character for such an event. He's been hoarding ships on Dragonstone for months even before Bob dies and is the only character other than Ned to know the truth about Cersei's children, yet when news arrives that Robert is dead he's the last of the anti-Lannister opposition to react. Renly manages to flee from King's Landing to Highgarden and raise a massive army, while Robb manages to call his banners and march into the Riverlands in the time it takes Stannis to send out a few ravens. By the time Stannis makes his play Renly is already in play and unlikely to back down.

We can't know what Renly's reaction would have been had Stannis made his move sooner. It doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility that they might have been able to come to terms, and a unified Baratheon claim would likely have picked up the support of the North as well, if not necessarily the Reach (that would likely depend on the nature of the deal - but even so, Renly would probably be able to keep the Reach neutral). That things happened the way they did is probably for reasons of Plot as much as anything, because I don't think there's any particularly good explanation for Stannis's acting (or not acting) in the way he did.

[Dolorous22]

On a not completely unrelated note, could Stannis of sat back, allowed Renly to (hopefully) defeat the Lannisters then assassinate Renly by way of shadow baby to become King?

[Trigger Warning]

Renly never actually said he would of got rid of em(and never said he wouldn't) and even if he did I imagine,based on his scheming and treasonous bannerman,that he'd only replace them with similar sycophants.Stannis imo and based on text, has a clear sense of justice (harsh as it is) ,but most of all stannis promotes on merrit and takes advice from people despite birth/ social class.He doesn't lust for the throne or power, he just sees it as his duty being Robert's true heir.

You know what happens when the king is a notorious hard ass and doesn't allocate power to the powerful schemers and nobles?

A big ol' rebellion.

[Shagwell Snow]

Haha,I'm sorry I don't agree.if Robert was more of a hard ass and more involved with the running of his realm ie more like stannis I can't see these schemers getting on the small council n varys should of been executed while the Mad king was still warm.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Because he says something like this when someone suggests he not be King.

*After* he had already tried to save his own ass twice by keeping Robert king and then keeping Joffrey on the throne with Ned as regent, neither situation granting him any more power.

So then when he finally does crown himself (well before anyone hears from Stannis btw) , he's skipping over 5 (or 3 depending on succession laws) people instead of 2, has the most power, and suddenly is supposed to capitulate against someone who has no more right to the throne than he does? No. And mostly because 1) they'd never call for a great council and 2) the great council would be liable to keep Joffrey as he is the "legitimate" issue from Robert's body. Why would they have a great council?

[Universal Sword Donor]

On a not completely unrelated note, could Stannis of sat back, allowed Renly to (hopefully) defeat the Lannisters then assassinate Renly by way of shadow baby to become King?

Yes and a longer term planner would have done so.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Stannis has the right.that's it,no more,no less.Renly would of been a shite king.stannis meant to scour the court clean, anyone who's read the books should know that in order to truly rule justly and fairly and without nepotism or cronieism,getting rid of little finger, varys etc is the only way to do just that.

While I have zero doubt that Stannis would be liklely to get rid of Pycelle, Varys, and LF, how on god's green earth can you say he's going to rule without nepotism or cronyism?

Half of his councils have been in-laws and some of most fervent followers. He appointed an in-law to sail his fleet to KL. Alester Florent was his Hand. Davos is his new hand.

Any court is going to have cronyism and nepotism in it. That much is a given. You have to reward the people supporting you.

[Shagwell Snow]

Good point.my only argument to that I suppose is that stannis has only a few nobles to chose from compared to other lords and once he became king he'd have the whole realm to chose from.I will say that stannis is a man to learn from mistakes and not afraid of changing his mind or policies once confronted with a harsh truth.I believe stannis would remove any councillor or official for corruption and punish them for all the realm to see.he takes Jon's council over his most loyal knights and bannerman and earlier he takes Davos's over his brother/uncle in law.if any claimant could be classed as just and fair, stannis is the man(is).jeez I sound like some suck hole politician selling his boss to a tv audience ;)

[Sullen]

Stannis has the right.that's it,no more,no less.Renly would of been a shite king.stannis meant to scour the court clean, anyone who's read the books should know that in order to truly rule justly and fairly and without nepotism or cronieism,getting rid of little finger, varys etc is the only way to do just that.

1. What makes you think Renly wouldn't replace Littlefinger and Varys by more loyal men? By supporting Joff, they were both going against him, and Renly is by no means stupid.

2. Stannis had a Florent Queen, Castelan, Hand of the King, and Master of Ships, he's far from clean of nepotism, mate. In fact, he's one of the worst offenders in the series until his master of ships died at the Blackwater and he burned his Hand.

[Victor227]

I came into this thread about to make my usual points, but turns out James Arryn beat me to it! Renly rebelling was his plan C, and he pulled it off wonderfully with all the connections and political capital at his fingertips. I do think he got into the whole king thing, but frankly that's exactly what a king is supposed to do. You don't want a wishy-washy king who's willing to set aside his crown in the name of a 'council' that may or may not ever materialize. There's no way Stannis would have ever gone for it, and the whole thing would have told the realm he was a weak pretender.

I wouldn't say he played the game perfectly in his first two plays in King's Landing, between the Margery and Ned schemes, but frankly, he really didn't have anything to work with when it came to fighting the Lannisters. Wine and sex were the only things that could get Robert out of bed in the morning, and with the Lannisters so entrenched at court, Robert was the only one who could do anything about them, so trying to find a replacement queen was really the only option outside of a shadow war of assassination with Cersei (who had far superior resources, and a better position). Still, he was remarkably well-prepared for Robert's death, able to get enough friends and colleagues to overwhelm the Lannisters in the night with Ned's help, and purge the Lannisters.

I'd say in the end, Brienne was the greatest indication that he was very self-aware and knew his situation and circumstances every step of the way. He knew what made his followers tick. He knew that they wanted lands and castles and honors, which is why he kept the two people who loved him most and would unconditionally close to his side (Brienne and Loras). He gave Brienne her post because despite feeling she was ridiculous (as did everyone), he recognized that unlike all of his followers who had something to gain from him, she only wanted to serve and die for him.

I really don't think he had much of a choice in what he did. He did more than just about anyone else to stop the Lannisters from seizing power (certainly more than Stannis), and when he was forced to flee King's Landing, he would have been doomed if he didn't make a big play of his own (conversation with Ned, he knows the Lannisters will kill him, if for nothing more than Storm's End). A big play means an alliance, and there's no bigger alliance than with the Tyrells. But the Lord of Storm's End is nothing compared to what the Lannisters can offer, and certainly not worth going to war over. So he ups the ante, and gives Mace exactly what he wants in a perfect package, a king, and the opportunity to become the dominant court-faction. Being a king has a downside though. You cannot back down. Your lords make you king, and they can very angrily unmake you if you try too hard to escape your role. At the time that didn't seem so bad, as he declared before Robb, and well before Stannis, but it did set his course inexorably.

[Minsc]

in order to truly rule justly and fairly and without nepotism or cronieism

Is that why Stannis appointed his wife's family members to be his Hand, Castellan, and Admiral of his Fleet?

1. Robert dies; Renly flees King's Landing

2. Ned is arrested; summonses are issued to all lords

3. Robb calls his banners and begins marching south; the Lannisters overrun the Riverlands

4. Ned is and executed; Renly declares himself king; Robb liberates Riverrun

5. Stannis issues his notices of incest and declares himself king

6. Robb is crowned king

5 and 6 are the other way around, Stannis only beats Balon in declaring his kingship of the original five.

[Shagwell Snow]

Well you got me there mate,but as I said earlier I believe his choices were limited whilst Lord of draganstone and as the story unfolded stannis wasn't shy when it came to replacement with a more compitant hand..I stand by what I said,I believe stannis would be a just and fair king,especially more than any other pretender,with the exception of Danny

[Shagwell Snow]

1. What makes you think Renly wouldn't replace Littlefinger and Varys by more loyal men? By supporting Joff, they were both going against him, and Renly is by no means stupid.

2. Stannis had a Florent Queen, Castelan, Hand of the King, and Master of Ships, he's far from clean of nepotism, mate. In fact, he's one of the worst offenders in the series until his master of ships died at the Blackwater and he burned his Hand.

1 I just think Renly would of created much the same kind of court as Robert,him being a puppet of the Tyrells.and I think he liked the idea of being king more than the reality again much like Robert.

2 I've answered that one twice.

[Humble Maester]

Because he says something like this when someone suggests he not be King.

I already said on last page that once he had been crowned it was too late to back down. Bit like how Robb couldn't give away his crown without losing the respect of his bannermen. So, irrelevant quote.

[Minsc]

Well you got me there mate,but as I said earlier I believe his choices were limited whilst Lord of draganstone and as the story unfolded stannis wasn't shy when it came to replacement with a more compitant hand..I stand by what I said,I believe stannis would be a just and fair king,especially more than any other pretender,with the exception of Danny

Stannis appoints Imry and Alister his Lord Admiral and Hand respectively after he has just gained the support of numerous lords from the Reach and Stormlands following his murder of Renly. Before that the Florents were pledged to Renly.

1 I just think Renly would of created much the same kind of court as Robert,him being a puppet of the Tyrells

Then how is Stannis different what with him being a puppet of the Florents/Mel. Seeing how there is equal evidence to that charge as there is to Renly being a Tyrell puppet.

[Buried Treasure]

I'm gonna be the fourth or fifth person in this thread to say bravo to James Arryn's very neat laying out of Renly's timelines and thoughts.

When Renly called his banners he may have still been on his 'get rid of Cersei, install a regent for Joffrey' plan. I think what changed for him was that when he saw the size of his army, and that they all answered to him, that is when he let it get to his head and decide it meant he deserved to be king.