Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

LmL

Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

Recommended Posts

J Stargaryen you were mentioning the iron throne being white hot: well, my big idea is that Lightbringer was a shadow fire weapon, black and red flame. What color was it when it was heated in sacred fires like Balerion's?

A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa,’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

I think it may have come out a black sword.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore.

-- ASOS, Tyrion

What color does a magic sword's fire take?

"The fire took on the color of the steel itself.." -- ASOS, JAIME

“I say, you are mad.” “Am I?” Dany shrugged, and said, “ Dracarys. ” The dragons answered. Rhaegal hissed and smoked, Viserion snapped, and Drogon spat swirling red- black flame." -- ASOS, DAENERYS

"and Balerion … his fire was as black as his scales.." -- ACOK, DAENERYS

“Drogon,” Dany said softly, “ dracarys. ” And she tossed the pork in the air. Drogon moved quicker than a striking cobra. Flame roared from his mouth, orange and scarlet and black..

“Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.…

Lord Stark had not treated him cruelly, but the long steel shadow of his greatsword had always been between them.

He was better than Pyg, but he had only a short throwing spear, and she had a Valyrian steel blade. Oathkeeper was alive in her hands. She had never been so quick. The blade became a grey blur.

He dreamt an old dream... In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life... Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist. They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life... Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. “And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. “No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm giving it away for free over here...


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm giving it away for free over here...

I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of approval. Thats some outstanding work for the overall theory, solidly backed up by textual references. Colour me seriously impressed.

And thanks also for the reminder of why I do still drop in as regularly as I can, even though the general quality of forum discussion has nosedived in the last year or so. Its absolute gems like this that are worth checking up for. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of approval. Thats some outstanding work for the overall theory, solidly backed up by textual references. Colour me seriously impressed.

And thanks also for the reminder of why I do still drop in as regularly as I can, even though the general quality of forum discussion has nosedived in the last year or so. Its absolute gems like this that are worth checking up for. Thank you.

Well that's a pretty fantastically kind thing to say, Corbon of the 3,688 posts, thanks very much. :). I do try really hard to just go off what the text is saying... Some of my ideas seem far fetched at first, but I really have tried to base everything off of the textual clues and symbolism, corroborated by the external mythology George seems to be working off of. Part of the reason my theories are so long is because I really try to find Al the textual clues I can and include them all, the better to prove the case. I figure anyone tooling around on Westeros.org has a bit of free time... ;)

I'm assuming you've gone back through the previous Astronomy theories? The comments threads are as good as the essays, it's been a team effort to explore this idea further. There's stars and moons and suns growing on trees around here! They're everywhere! :)

Well, if you come across anything as you re-read the series that looks like astronomy, be sure to pipe up and post the quote. We may have seen it already, but maybe not. :cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The lemurs, a stuffed example of which can be found at the Citadel, are called ‘little Valyrians’ because of their silver-white fur and purple eyes. Lemurs are primates and in the real world are found on Madagascar. I’ll spare you their evolution and biology but the interesting thing is they originated from the African continent millions of years ago and are believed to have reached Madagascar via floating islands of vegetation at a time when ocean currents favoured dispersal to the island. Does remind me of the floating palace of the Fisher Queens. Well, think what you will J

Let’s go back to the BSE.

As brother to the amethyst princess, he would have also borne this trait. Now, I do believe that he fathered children on his tiger-woman (made possible by sorcery) and would have passed the hair/eye color trait on to any daughters he may have had with this woman, they in turn passing the trait on to sons and daughters and so on. IMO, the BSE’s union with the tiger-woman also represents another layer of the Blood Betrayal. It is she who introduces tainted blood (or tainted genes) into the bloodline of the people of the dawn and this is where I think the ‘blood of the dragon’ originates. We basically end up with a bloodline exhibiting silver-gold hair and purple eyes as well as what I’ll simply term a ‘taint’ at the moment.

The legend does not tell us if the Opal Emperor had further children, but if he did, I imagine they would have horrified by the actions of the BSE. They may even have left the area entirely, migrating to a place as far away from the GEotD as possible. This would also mean that there are two different proto-Valyrian bloodlines out there – a ‘clean’ one and a ‘sullied’ one.

So which folk represent the ‘clean’ bloodline? As far as I can tell, the Daynes probably do.

As she led the princess to the fire, Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. “My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days,” he complained.

The first Dayne arrived in Westeros in the dawn of days, at a time when the Arm of Dorne was still intact, with the First Men, or perhaps even before.

Anyway, the whole point is that I think the original proto-Valyrian bloodlines diverged at some point, giving rise to 1) a small untainted but isolated population in Westeros represented by the Daynes and 2) the tainted bloodline stemming from the union of the BSE and his tiger woman as seen in the Old Valyrians and their descendants. Note - this does not mean all of these have the blood of the dragon - that was engineered at some later point.

Divergent populations are actually represented in the books. The Dothraki and the Lamb Men are one example, and another, the Walrus Men, one group of which wears walrus tusks and the other antlers, who ‘love each other not’.

Finally, the lemurs of Planetos offer another hint that the proto-Valyrians diverged at some point:

They are found on the Summer Isles and Sothoryos but are rarely seen further north – the one in the Citadel came from Qohor. The third group of people exhibiting a proto-Valyrian bloodline are of course the slaves of Lys.

I had something on lemurs a while back. I'm C+P'ing from LmL's second thread.

I've had an idea about lemurs since last April. I noticed the silver hair, purple eyes thing while looking at Dany's third AGoT chapter, and then the possible significance of that part was confirmed with the "little Valyrians" line from TWoIaF. A few things to keep in mind with this idea are that: the literal and figurative association of Targaryens (Valyrians) and dragons; the likely involvement of blood magic/shadowbinding in the hatching of Dany's dragons, and; the Qarthine celestial origin story of dragons.

Lemurs comes from the Latin lemures, which means spirits of the dead.

The Dothraki believed the stars were horses made of fire, a great herd that galloped across the sky by night. - AGoT, Daenerys V. To me, horses made of fire reads like dragons. Especially since these fiery mounts are in the sky; flying.

But in Clash, we read a different version of what the Dothraki supposedly believe the stars are. “The Dothraki believe the stars are spirits of the valiant dead,” Theon said. - ACoK, Theon VI. Wait, are they horses made of fire, or are they the spirits of the valiant dead? Those seem like different things, but that doesn't necessarily mean there must be a contradiction. They can be both if the spirits of the valiant dead inhabit dragons via shadowbinding.

Targaryens like to say that they are the blood of the dragon. Some people write that off as nonsense, while others believe that they might actually have dragon's blood. What if it's the other way around. What if dragons have, not Targaryen/Valyrian blood per se, but are inhabited by the shades of dead Targaryens/Valyrians, and that is how the dragons were bound to certain families within the freehold.

Aerys II and Aerion Brightflame both believed that they could turn themselves into dragons with wildfire. Of course we completely dismissed this as crazy Targ-ness at its finest because both of those characters were in fact crazy Targs. But, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if GRRM was hiding an element of truth in the actions of Aerys and Aerion. Two characters with little to no credibility.

So, why do we get a couple of references to lemurs, including the very obvious "little Valyrians" in the World book? Because Targaryens/Valyrians are figurative dragons, and dragons contain the spirits of the dead. In many cases, it might well be the spirits of dead dragon lords.

---

Also, GRRM was asked if "birthing a dragon requires a human sacrifice" and he gets a bit squirmy including some possibly telling hand gestures and says: "Interesting notion. I mean there are clues in the books. Ah, so, you know. I think I'm gonna dodge that one right now."

I used to have a link to the interview available, but it was removed from youtube due to a copyright claim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for digging that up, J Stargaryen. Evolett, I was holding off answering your post because I wanted J Star to post that bit. See what you make of that, and then I'll respond to some of your other comments. :)


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is … and then …” --Marwyn

Marywn talks about the issues that are important to us. That's not by chance. It means he's the character who gets to the crux of things.

I can't wait for when he meets the fire priest and the difference between R'hllorism and Starry Wisdom comes to light. In a world with solar wobbling and sunlight consistency issues, isn't Starry Wisdom the exact freaking thing that's called for???? You got ghosts, you call Ghostbusters. Got irregular seasons, you call the solar system doctors. The star-watchers. Aren't they our most likely source of finding out what's really wrong with the world and what could fix it, thanks to their unbroken tradition that dates back to the beginning of all this shit and remembers what Melisandre is only guessing at?

I want to see who's the champion of what. Are the fire priests trying to grab hold of Azor to truly uphold the Light, or are they trying to corrupt Azor so he/she is more like them and won't remain pure long enough to use the True Fire to burn through Rhllors' falseness and cleanse the world of shadowy fire. Or is Marwyn the Loki figure here who's looking to really kick off Ragnarok by killing Daenerys Azor so the Light falters and the long darkness of the Bloodstone Emperor returns to hold sway once more??? I think we've been given a shady guy to worry about in Marwyn.... and that's why there's no need to worry. (because the first impression was supposed to make us leary and now it'll go the other way toward Marwyn being the gruff but honest guy who ultimately isn't sweet enough to be a deceiver. he runs the risk of being so gruff that he won't be listened to, actually, because Moqorro is smoother with public relations I get the feeling. So he may have to put his magical credentials on display to proove he's the Merlin for Stormy to have by her side. ....Wizard War! ...... But come to think of it his connections to the world's nutbar wizards is troubling. Is he just piss-poor at selecting students to attend his personal Hogwarts, or is Qyburn's Marwyn-made monster factory a clue for you to see that Marwyn is bad news too? If Marwyn is loyal to his students, he's out to do Daenerys harm. If Marwyn is deeply disappointed in his past students whose human nature got the better of them, then he may be out to make amends and help the world by helping Daenerys to not completely singe it to ashes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Responding to J Stargaryen and the lemurs / dragons / stars / souls of the dead:

Fiery horses are indeed synonymous with dragons. I've seen that all over the place. In my first essay, I identified the path split by the statue of King Daeron on a horse with sword raised as a version of the comet being split. The moment before Dany walks into the sun's fire (Drogo's Pyre) and ritually burns herself to wake three dragons from stone (playing her role as the fire moon), she sees Drogo on a fiery steed - symbolizing the comet, the dragon.

Hmm, let's see, the souls of dragonlords remaining inside their bonded animal... where have I heard that before... hmmm...

Oh yes, that's right, skinchangers do that very thing. Bingo! George usually sets precedents for things, and there are just way too many parallels between ice and fire. I've always thought the dragon bond is a lot like the skin changer bond. If Stargaryen is right, and really, what the fuck is the point of those lemurs if not to give us the idea of Valyrians as ghosts? Then this is yet another parallel between the skinchanger bond and dragon bond.

Which begs the question - how WAS the first skinchanger bond created??? Blood sacrifice?

I really like this idea of family lineage dragonlords's souls or ghosts lingering in a matching line of dragons. It reminds me of this passage, seemingly a throw-away line:


“They talk of wise old dragons living a thousand years as well.”

“Well, how long does a dragon live?” She looked up as Viserion swooped low over the ship, his wings beating slowly and stirring the limp sails.

Ser Jorah shrugged. “A dragon’s natural span of days is many times as long as a man’s, or so the songs would have us believe … but the dragons the Seven Kingdoms knew best were those of House Targaryen. They were bred for war, and in war they died. It is no easy thing to slay a dragon, but it can be done.”

Bred for war, huh? Does that mean... they can be bread for other things? Maelys the Red Queen grew docile and lazy when she was fed without having to hunt for a long time. It makes me wonder about those stories of "wise old dragons." That sounds more like a greenseer / weirwood repository. (breaks out Ancient Aliens voice, hair spray and blowdryer): "Is it possible.. that the glass candles... were invented as some kind of alien technology to replace this lost knowledge of the Great Empire of the Dawn, who seems to have some sort of... psychic contact with the souls of their ancestors, inside the bodies of these 'wise old dragons'?"

Actually, there is precedent for communication with dragons:



“We have knowledge to share with you,” said a warrior in shining emerald armor, “and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered.” She took a step forward. But then Drogon leapt from her shoulder. He flew to the top of the ebony- and- weirwood door, perched there, and began to bite at the carved wood. “A willful beast,” laughed a handsome young man. “Shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind? Come, come.”

Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes … nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. -- ADWD, Tyrion

So what I am wondering is this. I really think this blood bonding thing, this "blood sacrifice to wake the dragon" stuff was invented by the Bloodstone Emperor. We know he didn't create dragons, because the Five Forts seem to predate him... (I mean maybe he made them, but it doesn't fit his m.o. really). But I do think he did something.. maybe invented the black dragons, the bigger ones with the black fire? Maybe he created the method of forcibly bonding dragons with blood sacrifice and horns (which are taken from dead dragons themselves)?

Anyway, the GEotD may have had a "nicer" way to bond with dragons, more like the Targaryens managed to do on Westeros for about 100 years or so. Those were consensual - the dragons chose the riders. But killing people against their will to wake dragons.. seems messed up. That seems like a Bloodstone Emperor kind of thing.

So, I've raised this issue in my own thread about which Valyrian technology the Targs brought with them, but the Targs did not bring a lot of stuff. No dragon binder horns. No fused stone technology - maybe Targs only had war dragons, war dragonlords, and fused stone requires a different dragon? Or maybe its the magic part of it - the Targs didn't have access to those spells? They didn't bring the V steel sword making knowledge either. It's weird, because they had 12 years to prepare supposedly, but didn't bring so many things from Valyria that would have been useful to have. Weird, right?

And then there's the dragon breeding spike. They brought 5 dragons to dragonstone, a volcanic place which should be conducive to dragon breeding. But 100 years after the Targs got there with 5 dragons, Aegon invaded with 3, presumably the only three he had. Only 1 of those, Balerion, was from Valyria. So... 4 Valyrian dragons died in that 100 years, and only 2 were born in that time that lived to adulthood by the time of Aegon's invasion (Vhagar and Meraxes). So, very slow breeding.

Then, all of the sudden, Aegon becomes king, and BOOM!! Explosion. By the end of Jaehaerys's reign, there are like 24 Targ dragons. Most die off soon after in the Dance, and then all of them a couple generations later. We think we know what happened to get rid of them - the Citadel and Hightowers - but why the spike in dragon breeding?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh and hey guys... I got a wordpress page up and running :) There is an updated version of AoP#1, as well as a much bigger version of the 'comet-piercing'moon-in-fron-of-sun' image I created for my avatar.



Cheers! :cheers:


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Responding to J Stargaryen and the lemurs / dragons / stars / souls of the dead:

Fiery horses are indeed synonymous with dragons. I've seen that all over the place. In my first essay, I identified the path split by the statue of King Daeron on a horse with sword raised as a version of the comet being split. The moment before Dany walks into the sun's fire (Drogo's Pyre) and ritually burns herself to wake three dragons from stone (playing her role as the fire moon), she sees Drogo on a fiery steed - symbolizing the comet, the dragon.

Hmm, let's see, the souls of dragonlords remaining inside their bonded animal... where have I heard that before... hmmm...

Oh yes, that's right, skinchangers do that very thing. Bingo! George usually sets precedents for things, and there are just way too many parallels between ice and fire. I've always thought the dragon bond is a lot like the skin changer bond. If Stargaryen is right, and really, what the fuck is the point of those lemurs if not to give us the idea of Valyrians as ghosts? Then this is yet another parallel between the skinchanger bond and dragon bond.

I wonder if skinchanging dragons is an ability that was lost at some point. Leaving dragon riding as something separate or split from skinchanging. Imagine if you could combine a line of skinchangers with a line of dragon riders. You might be able to (re)forge that ability sword. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Draconian explosion. The period of extreme fertility of queen mothers like Alysanne Targaryen and Alyssa Velaryon. I do not think it is a coincidence. I always thought that dragon creation and hatching is much more important than dragonriding. And I think this process is somehow related to the fertility of female dragonlords. I think this is the true reason why the dragonlords practiced incest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm assuming you've gone back through the previous Astronomy theories?

Yes, for the OPs anyway. So I mean a blanket well done, not just this particular thread. The discussions I don't have enough time for really, and in general this is not my thing at all - imagery, allegory, colours, gems and all that stuff. I'm more a literal kind of guy mostly. Most of the threads similar to this I am highly skeptical of because their basis is usually too loose for my taste (eg the Arbor Gold theory, which was very clever, but to me was severely lacking in rigour and didn't come close to passing the "shows out from background noise" test) but you have done a great job all the way through IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the reason why Drogon's flame is dark red (black fire shot with red)is because of high amount of light absorbing particles in it, impurities. The flame is red because of light refraction from those particles (dust, obsidian powder, charcoal powder from burnt corpse it roasted and ate) and those particles' light absorbing ability makes the flame darker it looks black. Rhaegal's flame is purer with its orange-and-yellow shot through with veins of green and Viserion's flame is the purest with its pale gold shot through with red and orange (based on color spectrum of course).



Although since it's magical, I don't know if our science can be applied to them, because the hotter and purer the fire is, the more it'll turn to blue, as in real world.



Azor Ahai's red sword is burning red because of impurities (dragonglass or whatever), while the previous emperors of GEotD has pale fire sword, purer flame, probably hotter as well.



The Others are never corrupted, because its ice refracts and reflects light, emits light and semi-transparent (or translucent). If there are impurities in ice, it'll affect their light refraction ability greatly. Also, impurities in ice absorb light. If corrupted or impure, The Others should have darker appearance due to impurities.



I'm worried for Jon Snow. In his dream where he wields red sword and wears black armor, those are signs of impurities (or dirts). The Sith's usual color, anyone? I hate all things Star Wars though.





Also, if Rhaegar married Lyanna and Jon is legitimated, Jon wouldn't be an ursurper. It'll be Daenerys this time around, BSE in reverse. This is quite ironic imo.



EDIT: Dragonflame


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm interested in this line of thinking very much. The advanced maritime skill is so out of place.

Here's a question for you Mithras, or for anyone else: if the Ironborn are from elsewhere, what is the intersection of myth that came with them vs. the sea god / wind god religion that seems to stretch from the Iron Islands to the Riverlands (Tullys send their dead to watery halls) to the Sisters, Stormlands, Fingers, possibly Crannogs. It seems like one of the two main first men religions, in addition to the Garth / Corn King / Green Man religion. The wildlings have these two also, pitted against one another - reindeer men (green men, Garth) vs Walrus Men (Selkies, Merlings, Deep Ones). The "Horned Lord" seems like a Garth revivalist for sure. We are told the First Men dropped their old beliefs to take up the religion of the Old Gods. I suspect this happened after the Long Night, because I think it's probable that the cotf helped man survive on Westeros during the LN. Check the Bran in Bloodraven's cave chapter - they've got mushrooms and goats and fish and a few other things, all underground. Lots of LN hints around there. Anyway, after the the cotf saved the FIrst Men's hide, they were impressed (very) with the cotf and old gods.

Oh and yes I think "the pact" may have happened right after the Long Night, not long before. But getting back to the subject at hand : if the Ironborn are from somewhere else, or at least some of their ancestry is, what beliefs are what and which belong to who? Did the aquatic religion come with the Ironborn and spread elsewhere? I don't think so, myself, because there is way too many damn Merlings and Selkies sightings around southern and middle Westeros. What's going on here?

So I literally just thought of this, but the Tully death rites totally mirror Victarion's burning of the slave ship as a sacrifice to both R'hllor and the Drowned God. Not sure what that means but it seems like a big "hm." Alternatively the Tully's could be flipping the Drowned God the bird: sure, we'll give you our dead. But they'll be burned, have fun trying to reanimate them and send them against us, you asshole. :-P

Re: reindeer men vs. walrus men: Walrus men definitely seem to be in the Deep Ones camp, but we have actually seen an elk, closely related to reindeer, in the service of the CotF by way of Cold Hands. Reindeer men could be a CotF faction. Personally I think that in the Dawn Age, before the GEotD even started, there was a long, bad history between CotF (Those Who Sing the Songs of *Earth*) and the Deep Ones. Garth is strongly associated with the Reach, and with the south in general, what with all his green-ness and his son who brought in chivalry that is only in the south. I have a hard time seeing Garth revivalists that far north.

Great catch, I totally agree.

Here I disagree. Sealing the Pact involved the establishment of the order of the Green Men, who are rumored to be green and have antlers. That's so reminiscent of Garth that I feel like he must have been involved, which makes the Pact pre-Long Night.

The weirwood grove at Old Wyk is dead. The Blackwoods claim that their weirwood tree was poisoned by the Brackens. If that is the case, were the weirwoods at Old Wyk poisoned too? Because the weirwood roots are very strong, so I do not expect a tsunami, or the cold to kill them.

I have also previously speculated that if Argoth Stone-skin was the Grey King, his pact with the merlings after his prize was stolen by the Hightowers makes sense. And this sounds long before the LN.

Wow, yeah, probably. That would definitely reflect the idea of Deep Ones/CotF conflict in the Dawn Age.

Theon called the Hooded Man a nightwalker, which means that is a person he assumes to be dead (Benjen, Septon Chayle, Harwin etc. take your pick)

Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick’s cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell’s groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand.

But it's stated that Theon does not recognize the man. So it can't be someone he assumes to be dead, since he'd have to recognize them to put that together. I agree "nightwalker" has sinister and death-related connotations, though.

I see the mountain behind Jon as the milkglass that goes into Other swords.

You're right, we're not far apart on this. But we might be far apart on this:

I'm talking about the Last Hero's dragon steel, which Old Nan said was broken by the Other's ice swords.

Old Nan never says this. Rather, in the story of the last hero (how the hero became the last hero):

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it1. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—

I interpret this as being before LH found aid from the cotf. After all, he was running for his life, and the cotf had to rescue him:

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him3," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

Then, after he gains their aid, he begins slaying others:

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades1, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel.1 Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian2." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass2 dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel3. Supposedly they could not stand against it.3"

Footnotes:

  1. The blades of others are so cold they shatter "ordinary blades."
  2. The children of the forest forge no metal, but the one material they do use in earnest just so happens to be a substance to which the Others are "vulnerable."
  3. After the cotf helped the last hero, the Others could not stand against him.

So, the way I read it, before the last hero found aid from the children, he ran from the Others. His normal (bronze?) sword froze and "snapped when he tried to use it" (against the Others?)... But then, after learning ancient magics from the cotf, the last hero began "slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel," that the Others "could not stand against."

So you can see where I'm going with this... the last hero set out with his 12 companions, his horse, his "dog," and his standard (bronze?) sword. All of these things proved inadequate, and, each was destroyed. Finally, stripped of all that could aid him, desperate and alone, Others cold on his trail, the children helped him.

Bran knows the end of the story, he no longer fears for his uncle Benjen. This is a hint that the last hero (of the 13) returned. Samwell's discoveries in the Annals at Castle Black support this, as clearly, the last hero was no so equipped when his friends, horse, dog, and sword were being destroyed.

So he got a new sword, and that sword became known as "dragonsteel." Call me crazy, but if the small folk call obsidian dragonglass, and the Valyrians call obsidian by a name that means "frozen fire," and dragons are "fire made flesh," then I would think the last hero's blade was aflame. And given the Others "could not stand against it," if any swords were shattering at that point (melting?) it certainly wasn't the last hero's blade of dragonsteel. At that point, the Others were thinking "retreat"...

FWIW I am in the VoFM camp on this debate.

-snip-

Great first post.

Awesome name. :-D

I had something on lemurs a while back. I'm C+P'ing from LmL's second thread.

I've had an idea about lemurs since last April. I noticed the silver hair, purple eyes thing while looking at Dany's third AGoT chapter, and then the possible significance of that part was confirmed with the "little Valyrians" line from TWoIaF. A few things to keep in mind with this idea are that: the literal and figurative association of Targaryens (Valyrians) and dragons; the likely involvement of blood magic/shadowbinding in the hatching of Dany's dragons, and; the Qarthine celestial origin story of dragons.

Lemurs comes from the Latin lemures, which means spirits of the dead.

The Dothraki believed the stars were horses made of fire, a great herd that galloped across the sky by night. - AGoT, Daenerys V. To me, horses made of fire reads like dragons. Especially since these fiery mounts are in the sky; flying.

But in Clash, we read a different version of what the Dothraki supposedly believe the stars are. “The Dothraki believe the stars are spirits of the valiant dead,” Theon said. - ACoK, Theon VI. Wait, are they horses made of fire, or are they the spirits of the valiant dead? Those seem like different things, but that doesn't necessarily mean there must be a contradiction. They can be both if the spirits of the valiant dead inhabit dragons via shadowbinding.

Targaryens like to say that they are the blood of the dragon. Some people write that off as nonsense, while others believe that they might actually have dragon's blood. What if it's the other way around. What if dragons have, not Targaryen/Valyrian blood per se, but are inhabited by the shades of dead Targaryens/Valyrians, and that is how the dragons were bound to certain families within the free the freehold.

Aerys II and Aerion Brightflame both believed that they could turn themselves into dragons with wildfire. Of course we completely dismissed this as crazy Targ-ness at its finest because both of those characters were in fact crazy Targs. But, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if GRRM was hiding an element of truth in the actions of Aerys and Aerion. Two characters with little to no credibility.

So, why do we get a couple of references to lemurs, including the very obvious "little Valyrians" in the World book? Because Targaryens/Valyrians are figurative dragons, and dragons contain the spirits of the dead. In many cases, it might well be the spirits of dead dragon lords.

---

Also, GRRM was asked if "birthing a dragon requires a human sacrifice" and he gets a bit squirmy including some possibly telling hand gestures and says: "Interesting notion. I mean there are clues in the books. Ah, so, you know. I think I'm gonna dodge that one right now."

I used to have a link to the interview available, but it was removed from youtube due to a copyright claim.

My pet theory about the lemurs is that Qohor maintained its independence from Valyria because the priests of the Black Goat turned all of the Valyrians who came there into lemurs.

But your idea makes more actual sense. It fits really well with the warg notion of second life and the CotF concept of spirits of dead wargs and greenseers inhabiting weirwoods and ravens.

Marywn talks about the issues that are important to us. That's not by chance. It means he's the character who gets to the crux of things.

I can't wait for when he meets the fire priest and the difference between R'hllorism and Starry Wisdom comes to light. In a world with solar wobbling and sunlight consistency issues, isn't Starry Wisdom the exact freaking thing that's called for???? You got ghosts, you call Ghostbusters. Got irregular seasons, you call the solar system doctors. The star-watchers. Aren't they our most likely source of finding out what's really wrong with the world and what could fix it, thanks to their unbroken tradition that dates back to the beginning of all this shit and remembers what Melisandre is only guessing at?

I want to see who's the champion of what. Are the fire priests trying to grab hold of Azor to truly uphold the Light, or are they trying to corrupt Azor so he/she is more like them and won't remain pure long enough to use the True Fire to burn through Rhllors' falseness and cleanse the world of shadowy fire. Or is Marwyn the Loki figure here who's looking to really kick off Ragnarok by killing Daenerys Azor so the Light falters and the long darkness of the Bloodstone Emperor returns to hold sway once more??? I think we've been given a shady guy to worry about in Marwyn.... and that's why there's no need to worry. (because the first impression was supposed to make us leary and now it'll go the other way toward Marwyn being the gruff but honest guy who ultimately isn't sweet enough to be a deceiver. he runs the risk of being so gruff that he won't be listened to, actually, because Moqorro is smoother with public relations I get the feeling. So he may have to put his magical credentials on display to proove he's the Merlin for Stormy to have by her side. ....Wizard War! ...... But come to think of it his connections to the world's nutbar wizards is troubling. Is he just piss-poor at selecting students to attend his personal Hogwarts, or is Qyburn's Marwyn-made monster factory a clue for you to see that Marwyn is bad news too? If Marwyn is loyal to his students, he's out to do Daenerys harm. If Marwyn is deeply disappointed in his past students whose human nature got the better of them, then he may be out to make amends and help the world by helping Daenerys to not completely singe it to ashes.

Lol, I KNOW RIGHT? The only indication we have of CoSW being "sinister" is some maester saying so. To me it seems like they are the ones who actually have the knowledge of what's going on.

I tend to side with the latter conclusion. Marwyn seems like the guy who is so happy to meet people interested in/open to his non-mainstream views and interests that he doesn't necesarily screen people very well. And look at Miri Maz Duur: She used what he taught her to be a healer. Yes, she shadowbinded on the side, but she was reluctant to use that power, and Drogo's infection and the monster baby only happened because her instructions weren't followed. No, she wasn't too torn up about it, but she did give a good-faith effort.

I think Marwyn has good intentions. How they will play out remains to be seen, I guess.

I think that the reason why Drogon's fire is dark red is because of high amount of light absorbing particles in it, impurities. The flame is red because of light refraction from those particles (dust, obsidian powder, charcoal powder from burnt corpse it roasted and ate) and those particles' light absorbing ability makes the flame darker it looks black. Viserion's is purer with its golden (whitish yellow imo) and Rhaegal's is the purest with its green flame (based on color spectrum of course).

Although since it's magical, I don't know if our science can be applied to them, because the hotter and purer the fire is, the more it'll turn to blue, as in real world.

Azor Ahai's red sword is burning red because of impurities (dragonglass or whatever), while the previous emperors of GEotD has pale fire sword, purer flame, probably hotter as well.

The Others are never corrupted, because its ice refracts and reflects light, emits light and semi-transparent. If there are impurities in ice, it'll affect their light refraction ability greatly. Also, impurities in ice absorb light. If corrupted or impure, The Others should have darker appearance due to impurities.

I'm worried for Jon Snow. In his dream where he wields red sword and wears black armor, those are signs of impurities. The Sith's usual color, anyone? I hate all things Star Wars though.

Also, if Rhaegar married Lyanna and Jon is legitimated, Jon wouldn't be an ursurper. It'll be Daenerys this time around, BSE in reverse. This is quite ironic imo.

So, very interesting analysis, but I'm REALLY hesitant to start talking about things in terms of impurities. Impure=bad really does not feel like a very GRRM-ish theme. I don't think anyone in this story is going to turn into a Sith analog--too simplistic for Planetos IMO. Jon's character is likely on a path to get darker, but not quite in that way, if I'm reading things correctly.

And Jon as a legitimate Iron Throne claimant is likely not going to be a huge issue, IMO. I think it's more about his magical heritage than his political stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had something on lemurs a while back. I'm C+P'ing from LmL's second thread.

I've had an idea about lemurs since last April. I noticed the silver hair, purple eyes thing while looking at Dany's third AGoT chapter, and then the possible significance of that part was confirmed with the "little Valyrians" line from TWoIaF. A few things to keep in mind with this idea are that: the literal and figurative association of Targaryens (Valyrians) and dragons; the likely involvement of blood magic/shadowbinding in the hatching of Dany's dragons, and; the Qarthine celestial origin story of dragons.

1. Lemurs comes from the Latin lemures, which means spirits of the dead.

The Dothraki believed the stars were horses made of fire, a great herd that galloped across the sky by night. - AGoT, Daenerys V. To me, horses made of fire reads like dragons. Especially since these fiery mounts are in the sky; flying.

2. But in Clash, we read a different version of what the Dothraki supposedly believe the stars are. “The Dothraki believe the stars are spirits of the valiant dead,” Theon said. - ACoK, Theon VI. Wait, are they horses made of fire, or are they the spirits of the valiant dead? Those seem like different things, but that doesn't necessarily mean there must be a contradiction. They can be both if the spirits of the valiant dead inhabit dragons via shadowbinding.

3.Targaryens like to say that they are the blood of the dragon. Some people write that off as nonsense, while others believe that they might actually have dragon's blood. What if it's the other way around. What if dragons have, not Targaryen/Valyrian blood per se, but are inhabited by the shades of dead Targaryens/Valyrians, and that is how the dragons were bound to certain families within the free the freehold.

4. Aerys II and Aerion Brightflame both believed that they could turn themselves into dragons with wildfire. Of course we completely dismissed this as crazy Targ-ness at its finest because both of those characters were in fact crazy Targs. But, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if GRRM was hiding an element of truth in the actions of Aerys and Aerion. Two characters with little to no credibility.

So, why do we get a couple of references to lemurs, including the very obvious "little Valyrians" in the World book? Because Targaryens/Valyrians are figurative dragons, and dragons contain the spirits of the dead. In many cases, it might well be the spirits of dead dragon lords.

---

Also, GRRM was asked if "birthing a dragon requires a human sacrifice" and he gets a bit squirmy including some possibly telling hand gestures and says: "Interesting notion. I mean there are clues in the books. Ah, so, you know. I think I'm gonna dodge that one right now."

I used to have a link to the interview available, but it was removed from youtube due to a copyright claim.

1. Yes, I also noted the Latin meaning of Lemurs during my research. In addition to that they are basal primates that evolved in isolation on Madagascar, eventually diverging into several related species found no where else. In connection with the Valyrians, my take on this is that the spirits of the dead might be a nod at the ancestors of the Valyrians - those that descended from the Opal Emperor later from the BSE.

2. Flying horses as dragons – entirely possible. The Dothraki are a relatively young people compared to others in Essos and their Stallion that mounts the world prophecy involves a hero who will unite all Dothraki into one single khalassar. To what end we don’t really know. MMD seemed to see this Stallion as a great threat to mankind and from what we know of the Dothraki, her opinion isn’t far-fetched. Nevertheless, it seems the prophecy is related to the other legends of heros such as Azor Ahai etc. The Dothraki then probably have a collective subconscious memory of the Long Night along with their own version of an expected ‘saviour’. That they have a memory of this event is supported by some traditions: Dothraki practice cremation, a process which not only releases their spirits and transforms them into flying horses, but is also an effective way of preventing being risen as a wight. They additionally behead the dead and dying after a battle – a curious practice but one which can be seen as a further measure to ensure no rising after death (I believe the wights are controlled via their star eyes – corpses with no head cannot be controlled). We see that the Dothraki are deeply troubled by the idea of not being able to perform the cremation rites for their dead. My view on the spirits is thus different. By becoming stars, the spirits take control and if horses represent dragons – what better weapon to eliminate wights than to bathe them in fire from above?

3. The idea of the spirits of dead dragonlords is compelling, after all we have the spirits of dead CotF inhabiting ravens but if this is the reason for bonding, then it’s more likely that this happens at some later stage, after the dragon is hatched and may be the means by which dragonlords are able to control their personal dragons. It does not really explain why all attempts to hatch dragon eggs after the Dance failed for instance. There must be some aspect to the Targaryens that induces hatching in the first place, imo. The World Book provides many examples of dragons which hatch when placed in the cradle of a new born but we also find out that eggs do not hatch for all children. Why don’t eggs hatch for all Targaryen children? Did the dragon embryos not contain dragonlord spirits? I think there’s another explanation to this, one connected to the ‘blood of the dragon’, essentially a genetic feature which some but not all Targaryens are born with.

4. Both Aerys and Aerion try to wake or transform into dragons using wildfire. I think these were simply misguided interpretations of the belief that dragons are ‘fire made flesh’.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly I am at a point where I will believe pretty much anything about the Ironborn other than them being regular first men. We are going to find out some crazy stuff about them later, I'm sure.

I feel the same way. Don't forget about the three sisters either. There are definitely parallels between them and the ironborn, and the Davo's chapter there seems to be full of interesting stuff (see Evolett's post on crabs and the others; also an interesting reference to Ned Stark there). My initial thought on the ironborn was that it had something to do with fire and ice combining to make water/steam but that's just speculation.

Another interesting part about that chapter is the description of the night lamp:

"Lightning Split the norther sky, etching the black tower of the Night Lamp against the blue-white sky." (ADWD, Davos)

I thought it was a nice black/blue contrast while also tying all the talk about lightning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the reason why Drogon's fire is dark red is because of high amount of light absorbing particles in it, impurities. The flame is red because of light refraction from those particles (dust, obsidian powder, charcoal powder from burnt corpse it roasted and ate) and those particles' light absorbing ability makes the flame darker it looks black. Viserion's is purer with its golden (whitish yellow imo) and Rhaegal's is the purest with its green flame (based on color spectrum of course).

Although since it's magical, I don't know if our science can be applied to them, because the hotter and purer the fire is, the more it'll turn to blue, as in real world.

Azor Ahai's red sword is burning red because of impurities (dragonglass or whatever), while the previous emperors of GEotD has pale fire sword, purer flame, probably hotter as well.

The Others are never corrupted, because its ice refracts and reflects light, emits light and semi-transparent. If there are impurities in ice, it'll affect their light refraction ability greatly. Also, impurities in ice absorb light. If corrupted or impure, The Others should have darker appearance due to impurities.

I'm worried for Jon Snow. In his dream where he wields red sword and wears black armor, those are signs of impurities. The Sith's usual color, anyone? I hate all things Star Wars though.

Also, if Rhaegar married Lyanna and Jon is legitimated, Jon wouldn't be an ursurper. It'll be Daenerys this time around, BSE in reverse. This is quite ironic imo.

Really nice observations, Schwarze Sonne. I've often wondered why the dragons exhibit differences in flame colour and never thought to have a look at the properties of flame. In a natural fire, the white flames are the hottest, representing complete combustion of all particles / impurities and are usually found right at the bottom, followed by yellow, orange and then red. I'm not sure whether we can assign good / bad roles on the basis of flame colour though, but I do think it's possible the dragon's flame colour may have something to do with their mode of employment or efficiency. So far we've haven't seen much beyond the singeing of sheep. The Valyrians used dragonfire to form and fuse stone - perhaps a special kind / color of dragonfire was best for this, for instance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I literally just thought of this, but the Tully death rites totally mirror Victarion's burning of the slave ship as a sacrifice to both R'hllor and the Drowned God. Not sure what that means but it seems like a big "hm." Alternatively the Tully's could be flipping the Drowned God the bird: sure, we'll give you our dead. But they'll be burned, have fun trying to reanimate them and send them against us, you asshole. :-P

Yes, I've seen that pointed out before, on a thread analyzing all the death rituals on ancient Westeros from the angle of preventing wights from rising. I do like the comparison to Victarion's burning and drowning. So burning before sending to the watery halls fits in with this idea... someone pointed out that breaking the bones seems to "kill" the wights, implying that the bones have something to do with their re-animated life force.

Re: reindeer men vs. walrus men: Walrus men definitely seem to be in the Deep Ones camp, but we have actually seen an elk, closely related to reindeer, in the service of the CotF by way of Cold Hands. Reindeer men could be a CotF faction. Personally I think that in the Dawn Age, before the GEotD even started, there was a long, bad history between CotF (Those Who Sing the Songs of *Earth*) and the Deep Ones. Garth is strongly associated with the Reach, and with the south in general, what with all his green-ness and his son who brought in chivalry that is only in the south. I have a hard time seeing Garth revivalists that far north.

I am going straight for facts this morning. I'm not grumpy or anything but I am going to correct the record a bit, because I am big on going off the text as opposed to people's various ideas about things.
Reindeer men ARE a cotf faction. They are directly tied to the Sacred order of the Green hand.

You may have a hard time seeing the Garth revivalist in the north, but they are there nevertheless. It's not hard to understand - the wildlings were first men who were caught on the wrong side of the Wall. They took the old religions with them - how not? Of course they have the selkie vs. antler men rift:

After the riders came the men of the Frozen Shore. Jon watched a dozen of their big bone chariots roll past him one by one, clattering like Rattleshirt. Half still rolled as before; others had replaced their wheels with runners. They slid across the snowdrifts smoothly, where the wheeled chariots were foundering and sinking. The dogs that drew the chariots were fearsome beasts, as big as direwolves. Their women were clad in sealskins, some with infants at their breasts. Older children shuffled along behind their mothers and looked up at Jon with eyes as dark and hard as the stones they clutched. Some of the men wore antlers on their hats, and some wore walrus tusks. The two sorts did not love each other, he soon gathered. A few thin reindeer brought up the rear, with the great dogs snapping at the heels of stragglers. “Be wary o’ that lot, Jon Snow,” Tormund warned him. “A savage folk. The men are bad, the women worse.”
-- ADWD, Jon
The Horned Lord is absolutely a reference to the Horned Lord of Celtic and Pagan myth, as is Garth. This tradition has, for a fact, survived in the North.
The credit for all of these discoveries about Deep Ones vs Green Men goes to Crowfood's Daughter. Anyone curious about this topic should read her essay.
Here I disagree. Sealing the Pact involved the establishment of the order of the Green Men, who are rumored to be green and have antlers. That's so reminiscent of Garth that I feel like he must have been involved, which makes the Pact pre-Long Night.

I think Garth was killed to bring the spring after the Long Night. It's the most likely thing - he is the original sacrificial deity, the original Corn King that dies in the fall to bring the spring. Our Garth stand ins are always killed by Azor Ahai - Renly killed by Stannis, Ser Galladon unshethingthe maid vs a 8ft opponent mounted on an aurochs, Arthur Dayne killed the Smiling Knight (reference to cheshire cat moon / horned moon), etc. The text seems to suggest that Azor Ahai killed Garth - that would have been during there Long Night. So it's completely possible that the pact was formed right after the Long Night, as I suggest.
Furthermore, Uthor Hightower, who commissioned Brandon the Builder to build the Hightower on top of the fused stone fortress, married a daughter of Garth, which would put Bran the Builder as a contemporary with Uthor and Garth. BtB is also associated with building the Wall, which happened after the Long Night most would agree, another clue he's contemporary with Garth, or at least the end of Garth's life. Brandonthe Bloody Blade may have been the father of BtB, and he's a son of Garth.
Then we have the fact that Brandon Bloody Blade was killing tons of cotf and giants, as were all the other Dawn Age First Men. If Brandon the Bloody Blade was still killing cotf in his day, then his son, who built things right after the Long Night, may have been the first Stark to NOT kill cotf. Another piece of evidence that the pact happened right after the LN.

I do not think anyone ws in the North before the Long Night, myself. There is no evidence of anyone in the North before the Last Hero. Brandon Bloody Blade is from the reach. I suspect everything north of the neck was frozen before the LN, as the Arm of Dorne would have been still whole, and the Shivering Sea would have had no warm currents from the Summer Sea coming north. I think everything points to the Starks establishing Winterfell after the LN ended.

Wow, yeah, probably. That would definitely reflect the idea of Deep Ones/CotF conflict in the Dawn Age.
Yes, there is no question this antler-selkie rivalry is very, very old. The first men may have walk dingo it, or it may be that it started when the First Men began taking islands and coastal areas away from the merlings, selkies, etc. Everything about the Iron Islands is all about harvesting and reaping, while the Green Men are all about sewing and planting.
FWIW I am in the VoFM camp on this debate.
​Voice of the First Men (my very good buddy) andI have some disagreements about certain things. Namely, he doesn't yet accept that there were two moons. It's okay, gives me something to work towards. Anyway, I went back over this chapter with Jon on the mountain. The language is ambiguous, we've got ice and fire language all jumbled in together. I'm going to go through and pull all the quotes about the mountain in this section and we can take a look and see if we can sort it out.
To start, I have to point out a small mistake by Voice with interpreting this quote:

The wall was broken two- thirds of the way up by a crooked fissure of icy stone.Up they went, and up, and up, black shadows creeping across the moonlit wall of rock.

Then he said:
The sword described in this quote is made from icy stone and lit by the moon, so I colored it blue. This is a sword of milkglass from the cold forge, not a Valyrian blade. Brothers of the Night's Watch find their doom in its edge.
But this is wrong. The icy stone is the FISSURE, not the mountain. The icy stone fissure is what BREAKS the mountain. The mountain is what is lit by moonlight, as are the swords that come AGAINST the ice swords of the Others and are broken, as I have shown with Ser Waymar and Beric and the Last Hero. Moonlight does not mean Other's sword, necessarily. The sword which broke against the Others' sword was lit by moonlight - it was not an ice sword. It was the sword broken by the ice sword:
Royce slid gracefully from his saddle. He tied the destrier securely to a low- hanging limb, well away from the other horses, and drew his longsword from its sheath. Jewels glittered in its hilt, and the moonlight ran down the shining steel.
Let's try to stay away from fuzzy thinking on this. We have to be detailed when unravelling these metaphors. Moonlight will always be the light for others, yes, but any scene at night will light everything with moonlight. Anyone who fights Others will do so with moonlight, so that's not indicative by itself. I will consider this point settled.
Also settled is the scene above - pale stone fissure breaks the wall of mountain lit by moonlight. But it wasn't any old part of the mountain that formed this "wall":
The narrow track ended abruptly where a massive shoulder of black granite thrust out from the side of the mountain. After the bright moonlight, its shadow was so black that it felt like stepping into a cave. “Straight up here,” the ranger said in a quiet voice. “We want to get above them.”
Within the context of the metaphor, I am not sure if we are supposed to see this black granite wall as part of the mountain, or its own entity. Thoughts? I think the use of the word "wall" was specific here, as the Wall itself is often a metaphor for Lightbringer:

“Don’t prate your words at me.” Stannis drew the blade he called Lightbringer. “ Here is your sword in the darkness. Light rippled up and down the blade, now red, now yellow, now orange, painting the king’s face in harsh, bright hues. “Even a green boy should be able to see that. Are you blind?”

The king laid his bright blade down on the map, along the Wall, its steel shimmering like sunlight on water. “You are only lord commander by my sufferance. You would do well to remember that.”
The map lay between them like a battleground, drenched by the colors of the glowing sword.
“I cannot speak to what my father might have done. I took an oath, Your Grace. The Wall is mine.” “For now. We will see how well you hold it.” Stannis pointed at him. “Keep your ruins, as they mean so much to you.
The wall is Lightbringer, and Lightbringer belongs to Jon Snow. Because he is Azor Ahai reborn. Simple. But if you can tolerate a brief divergence, the concept of a map as lightbringer / dragon steel is pretty tasty and ties LB to the dragon steel of the Last Hero:

He gazed about him. “The library at Winterfell has more than a hundred. Did you find the maps?”

“Oh, yes.” Sam’s hand swept over the table, fingers plump as sausages indicating the clutter of books and scrolls before him. “A dozen, at the least.” He unfolded a square of parchment. “The paint has faded, but you can see where the mapmaker marked the sites of wildling villages, and there’s another book … where is it now? I was reading it a moment ago.” He shoved some scrolls aside to reveal a dusty volume bound in rotted leather. “This,” he said reverently, “is the account of a journey from the Shadow Tower all the way to Lorn Point on the Frozen Shore, written by a ranger named Redwyn. It’s not dated, but he mentions a Dorren Stark as King in the North, so it must be from before the Conquest. Jon, they fought giants ! Redwyn even traded with the children of the forest, it’s all here.” Ever so delicately, he turned pages with a finger. “He drew maps as well, see …
Twelve maps are great, but this thirteenth map - oh boy is it awesome!! Look how how awesome this 13th map is! It's got all this cool stuff, why it's like a treasure:
“You’d be surprised. This vault is a treasure, Jon.”
“If you say so.” Jon was doubtful. Treasure meant gold, silver, and jewels, not dust, spiders, and rotting leather.
“I do,” the fat boy blurted. He was older than Jon, a man grown by law, but it was hard to think of him as anything but a boy. “I found drawings of the faces in the trees, and a book about the tongue of the children of the forest … works that even the Citadel doesn’t have, scrolls from old Valyria, counts of the seasons written by maesters dead a thousand years …”
That's cool, but how do we know to associate these maps, which lead the way through the forest, to red comets and magic swords? Well, besides the fact that we already saw Lightbringer laying across the map where the Wall is... we want more proof!
The morning sky was streaked by thin grey clouds, but the pale red line was there behind them. The black brothers had dubbed the wanderer Mormont’s Torch, saying (only half in jest) that the gods must have sent it to light the old man’s way through the haunted forest. “The comet’s so bright you can see it by day now,” Sam said, shading his eyes with a fistful of books. “Never mind about comets, it’s maps the Old Bear wants.”
The Last Hero's dragon steel was the red comet sword, Lightbringer. Now that that is settled (LOL), back to the Jon chapter. Starting at the beginning, let's look at the language about the mountain and see what it tells us. I am going to highlight fire language in red, and icy things in blue. References to darkness will be in dark red, as I associate LB with sunset, nightfall, and shadow. White and silver and pale things, which are mostly Ice / Dawn associated, will be in light blue (but remember not all moonlight is automatically ice-associated). Ambiguous references to knives, blades, etc, and anything else worthy of note but not tied to ice or fire will be in black bold. References to greenseers or earth will be in green, just for kicks.

They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star. It burned redder than the other stars, and did not twinkle, though sometimes it flared up bright and sometimes dwindled down to no more than a distant spark, dull and faint.

“If he knew they’d lit a fire, he’d flay the poor bastards,” said Ebben, a squat bald man muscled like a bag of rocks. “Fire is life up here,” said Qhorin Halfhand, “but it can be death as well.” By his command, they’d risked no open flames since entering the mountains.
It made Jon remember cold nights long ago at Winterfell, when he’d shared a bed with his brothers. These men were brothers too, though the bed they shared was stone and earth.
“That’s a long cruel climb by night,” Ebben said as he eyed the distant spark through a cleft in the rocks that sheltered them. The sky was cloudless, the jagged mountains rising black on black until the very top, where their cold crowns of snow and ice shone palely in the moonlight.
“And a longer fall,” said Qhorin Halfhand. Two men, I think. There are like to be two up there, sharing the watch.”
Two shadow men are headed to collide with the 'falling star' fire. As Jon represents AA in some cases, I'm tempted to see Stonesnake ( a comet name) and Jon (AA) as the two halves of the comet that split. One will die soon at the hands of the wildlings, and Jon lives on. Quorin's throat is cut, like a sacrifice, while Jon always keeps his oaths. Besides representing his "father," Azor Ahai (the red comet), he also represents the offspring of the comet fertilizing the ICE MOON, as his mother Lyanna was Rhaegar's ice bride. Thus, Jon's identification as the Oathkeeper half of the comet makes sense. The Oathkeepeer half is the one we see in the sky, and I predict it will hit the ice moon, symbolizing Jon's birth. When we get to the top, Jon is the one to take a hostage (life association with Oathkeeper comet, ice moon, death associated with fire moon, widow's wail).When they get to the top, we will see that the fallen star fire actually has THREE watchers, not two. Those are the three dragons born of the fire moon, the fallen star, the three moon meteors.
One of the garrons whickered and pawed at the thin stony soil of the hollow where they had taken shelter. “The wolf will remain with us,” Qhorin said. “White fur is seen too easily by moonlight. He turned to Stonesnake. “When it’s done, throw down a burning brand. We’ll come when we see it fall.”
I think this is an allusion to the slaying of Mithras' white bull. Jon, the comet, is on a path to collide with that star fire - and he must leave the white spirit animal behind to do this. I think Ghost will be sacrificed to resurrect Jon, though part of Ghost (his ghost, get it) will remain with Jon. The white bull Mithras slays becomes the moon after death. Thus, I identify the ice moon with the Last Hero, and the zodiac as his twelve companions. Throwing down a burning brand mirrors the Drowned God's burning brand he brought from the sea (after the moon meteor drowned in the sea).
They each took a long coil of rope. Stonesnake carried a bag of iron spikes as well, and a small hammer with its head wrapped in thick felt. Their garrons they left behind, along with their helms, mail, and Ghost. Jon knelt and let the direwolf nuzzle him before they set off. “Stay,” he commanded. “I’ll be back for you.” Stonesnake took the lead. He was a short wiry man, near fifty and grey of beard but stronger than he seemed, and he had the best night eyes of anyone Jon had ever known. He needed them tonight. By day the mountains were blue- grey, brushed with frost, but once the sun vanished behind the jagged peaks they turned black. Now the rising moon had limned them in white and silver. The black brothers moved through black shadows amidst black rocks, working their way up a steep, twisting trail as their breath frosted in the black air.
​Stone + snake (dragonglass) + iron = magic sword. I've told Voice about this before, but that is the recipe for a magic sword - stone, glass, and steel. This pattern is found many places in the book - I won't bog this long comment down with them, that's a future essay. But this is the formula, take my word for it (for now). A stone snake made of iron is a damn meteor, it should be clear. He's hammering the mountain, which suggest the mountain is a sword, to be hammered into shape. Not sure if you can hammer milkglass or obsidian, but you can hammer steel. This is all sword forging stuff here. It ambiguous which sword though, as both contain steel and both need hammering. The stone and steel of Dawn comes from the comet itself, while the stone (and maybe iron /steel) for Lightbringer came from the black stone, a moon meteor. Both are stone snakes. Either could fit.
I take "twisting" to refer to snakes... but both a comet and a meteor are snakes.
The Skirling Pass was really a series of passes, a long twisting course that went up around a succession of icy wind- carved peaks and down through hidden valleys that seldom saw the sun. Apart from his companions, Jon had glimpsed no living man since they’d left the wood behind and begun to make their way upward. The Frostfangs were as cruel as any place the gods had made, and as inimical to men. The wind cut like a knife up here, and shrilled in the night like a mother mourning her slain children. What few trees they saw were stunted, grotesque things growing sideways out of cracks and fissures. Tumbled shelves of rock often overhung the trail, fringed with hanging icicles that looked like long white teeth from a distance. Yet even so, Jon Snow was not sorry he had come. There were wonders here as well. He had seen sunlight flashing on icy thin waterfalls as they plunged over the lips of sheer stone cliffs, and a mountain meadow full of autumn wildflowers, blue coldsnaps and bright scarlet frostfires and stands of piper’s grass in russet and gold. He had peered down ravines so deep and black they seemed certain to end in some hell, and he had ridden his garron over a wind- eaten bridge of natural stone with nothing but sky to either side.
Hidden valleys that seldom see the sun is very reminiscent of the Worldbooks description of the Shadow beyond Asshai, a valley to steep that the sun only shines into it at high noon, and briefly.
They left behind the trees and then saw no living man, while stunted trees grew from the cracks and fissures - the same place we saw the jagged icy sword. Greenseers and Others are interconnected. It cannot be denied at this point. "The White Walkers of the woods." Indeed.
Long white teeth - sounds like someone is entering the dragon's gullet. This usually denotes the collision part of the metaphor is about to happen. Do Ice dragons have white teeth? Hard to say. The emphasis may simply be on the teeth - since this is a chapter in the tundra, it's hard to know if George is encoding a metaphor about fire things in icy language (he does that, in both directions) or if we are supposed to think of a white-toothed dragon (which can only be an ice dragon, dragon's teeth are black diamond). This problem plagues the entire metaphor. George definitely does hide metaphors about fire dragons in an ice ascend and vise versa, so... it's tricky.
Once he had watched a shadowcat stalk a ram, flowing down the mountainside like liquid smoke until it was ready to pounce. Now it is our turn to pounce. He wished he could move as sure and silent as that shadowcat, and kill as quickly. Longclaw was sheathed across his back, but he might not have room to use it. He carried dirk and dagger for closer work. They will have weapons as well, and I am not armored. He wondered who would prove the shadowcat by night’s end, and who the ram.
The ram is a sacrificial animal, while the shadow cat is basically another way of saying "Lion of Night." The constellation shadow cat probably represents Leo, the Lion. And flowing like liquid smoke sounds a bit like a shadow sword, which is associated with Azor Ahai's sword, as I have shown above. The shadow cat consumes the dead, very Lion of Night. The shadow cat is a blade which kills the sacrificial animal. Jon wonders who will be the sacrifice. Well, it's going to be the fallen star fire moon at the top who gets sacrificed - Jon is the shadow blade, the lion of night embodiment, Azor Ahai, prince of darkness. :cool4:
On the other hand, the shadow cat is a shadow that moves silently. Like an Other. And Jonof course is associated with Others as well as Azor Ahai. This makes me wonder - is there anything to connect Azor Ahai to the Others?

Catelyn studied the faces. The Father was bearded, as ever. The Mother smiled, loving and protective. The Warrior had his sword sketched in beneath his face, the Smith his hammer. The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise. And the seventh face … the Stranger was neither male nor female (like a dragon), yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places (the ninth wanderer from outside the solar system), less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. :eek: It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there.
Egads. We better just move on.
Sometimes the mountain folded back on itself and they lost sight of the fire, but soon or late it would always reappear. The path Stonesnake chose would never have served for the horses. In places Jon had to put his back to the cold stone and shuffle along sideways like a crab, inch by inch. Even where the track widened it was treacherous; there were cracks big enough to swallow a man’s leg, rubble to stumble over, hollow places where the water pooled by day and froze hard by night. One step and then another, Jon told himself. One step and then another, and I will not fall.
This is the strongest evidence that the mountain is Lightbringer. Folded steel is associated only with Valyrian steel. The fire going out and re-appearing I think refers to Lightbringer being broken, and then reforged, as I have repeatedly suggested. Here we also see a connection between water and ice (gee, what an insight) which may allude to DeepOnes as allies of the Others - the cracks where the water pools and freezes can swallow your leg.
There was nothing below but yawning blackness, nothing above but moon and stars.The mountain is your mother,” Stonesnake had told him during an easier climb a few days past. “Cling to her, press your face up against her teats, and she won’t drop you.” Jon had made a joke of it, saying how he’d always wondered who his mother was, but never thought to find her in the Frostfangs. It did not seem nearly so amusing now. One step and then another, he thought, clinging tight.
Of course the best evidence for the mountain as LB is followed by the opposite - the mountain is Jon's mother. Jon's mother is the ice moon, Lyanna. Jon seems to be in space right now - above the darkness of the LN, below the moon and stars - sounds like he a comet, flying through the air. The wind is whipping at him right now; I didn't include the quote.
The narrow track ended abruptly where a massive shoulder of black granite thrust out from the side of the mountain. After the bright moonlight, its shadow was so black that it felt like stepping into a cave. “Straight up here,” the ranger said in a quiet voice. “We want to get above them.”
Stonesnake had passed the rope around the smooth spike of rock he was waiting on, but as soon as Jon reached him he shook it loose and was off again. This time there was no convenient cleft when he reached the end of their tether, so he took out his felt- headed hammer and drove a spike deep into a crack in the stone with a series of gentle taps. Soft as the sounds were, they echoed off the stone so loudly that Jon winced with every blow, certain that the wildlings must hear them too. When the spike was secure, Stonesnake secured the rope to it, and Jon started after him. Suck on the mountain’s teat, he reminded himself.
Jon is hammering his mother? And it makes him wince.. I think Jon is playing the dual role of Azor Ahai, comet that hit the ice moon, and the offspring of said union, AA reborn in an icy sheath, as I refer to Jon with his fire sword and ice armor. His driving iron into the ice moon makes sense with Jon as comet and mountain as ice moon. But if the mountain is the fire moon / fire sword (the sword is made from the moon rock), Jon as Azor Ahai is hammering it, folding it into shape, making a sword. :dunno: Smooth spike of rock is another stone sword motif. It's black rock, it should be noted.
Once his foot slipped as he put his weight on it and his heart stopped in his chest, but the gods were good and he did not fall. He could feel the cold seeping off the rock into his fingers, but he dared not don his gloves; gloves would slip, no matter how tight they seemed, cloth and fur moving between skin and stone, and up here that could kill him. His burned hand was stiffening up on him, and soon it began to ache. Then he ripped open his thumbnail somehow, and after that he left smears of blood wherever he put his hand. He hoped he still had all his fingers by the end of the climb.
Is that the fiery hand of R'hllor?? Here's a nice foreshadowing of his "cold hands" that he will get one day, when his heart stops. Heh. JON IS DEAD. But he's coming back, as a Coldhands. Now that that is settled... ;)
Up they went, and up, and up, black shadows creeping across the moonlit wall of rock. Anyone down on the floor of the pass could have seen them easily, but the mountain hid them from the view of the wildlings by their fire. They were close now, though. Jon could sense it. Even so, he did not think of the foes who were waiting for him, all unknowing, but of his brother at Winterfell. Bran used to love to climb. I wish I had a tenth part of his courage.
Here's the funky part. The wall of rock is black granite, but lit by moonlight. What to make of that? It still looks black, but lit up... so grey? I dunno.
I do know that the mountain is blocking the light - eclipsing it. This fits with the mountain as ONE of our moons (but which one)? I am pretty sure the fire moon was in front of the sun when it was hit, but the ice moon was very close, possibly blocking the sun in a double eclipse (although the story of Serwyn makes me think it must have been right next to the eclipsed sun, not in front, but I am not sure or that.)
Stonesnake reached down a hand to help him up. He had donned his gloves again, so Jon did the same. The ranger moved his head to the left, and the two of them crawled along the shelf three hundred yards or more, until they could see the dull orange glow beyond the lip of the cliff.
Dull glow beyond the lip of the black cliff - sounds like an eclipse all right. And we see Jon has his black hands now.. say.. nice moleskin gloves, those remind me of the gloves of a man who broke his sword against an Others' sword... Ser Waymar = Jon = Last Hero = Azor Ahai?
One was asleep, curled up tight and buried beneath a great mound of skins. Jon could see nothing of him but his hair, bright red in the firelight. The second sat close to the flames, feeding them twigs and branches and complaining of the wind in a querulous tone. The third watched the pass, though there was little to see, only a vast bowl of darkness ringed by the snowy shoulders of the mountains. It was the watcher who wore the horn. Three. For a moment Jon was uncertain. There was only supposed to be two.
Two of these three are fire associated - red hair, and feeding the fire. Notice we are burning trees up here. The third "dragon spawn" of the fallen star fire is the "watcher." This term has been applied to both Others and NW, and anything that evokes an eye reminds me of the god's eye and the thousand eyes of scarlet flame of the meteor shower. So it's easy for me to say "two dragon meteors and a meteor shower," but who knows. But we do have a watcher with a horn, worthy of note of course.
Stonesnake touched his arm, pointed at the wildling with the horn. Jon nodded toward the one by the fire. It felt queer, picking a man to kill.
Stonesnake moved as fast as his namesake, leaping down on the wildlings in a rain of pebbles. Jon slid Longclaw from its sheath and followed.
Stonesnake, one half of the comet, leaps down first in a rain of pebbles, almost like a comet rail of debris. Jon draws his Longclaw, making him a true dragon comet (dragons having the longest claws out there).
It all seemed to happen in a heartbeat. Afterward Jon could admire the courage of the wildling who reached first for his horn instead of his blade. He got it to his lips, but before he could sound it Stonesnake knocked the horn aside with a swipe of his shortsword. Jon’s man leapt to his feet, thrusting at his face with a burning brand. He could feel the heat of the flames as he flinched back. Out of the corner of his eye, he saw the sleeper stirring, and knew he must finish his man quick. When the brand swung again, he bulled into it, swinging the bastard sword with both hands. The Valyrian steel sheared through leather, fur, wool, and flesh, but when the wildling fell he twisted, ripping the sword from Jon’s grasp.
Azor Ahai loses his sword. This is a metaphor I see a lot. A LOT. This is what creates doubt about the Last Hero's identity. I am SURE that the dragon steel of the LH is AA's Lightbringer, but the LH may not be AA. AA seems to have lost his sword at some point.
Jon attacking a man with a torch reminds me a little bit of the Others chopping through Grenn's torch.
On the ground the sleeper sat up beneath his furs. Jon slid his dirk free, grabbing the man by the hair and jamming the point of the knife up under his chin as he reached for his— no, her. His hand froze. “A girl.”
“A watcher,” said Stonesnake. “A wildling. Finish her.” Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes. Blood ran down her white throat from where the point of his dirk had pricked her. One thrust and it’s done, he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. “Will you yield?” he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn’t? “I yield.” Her words steamed in the cold air.
Arya is a moon child - but I do not yet know which moon. It seems like in various scenes, she or Sansa may play the role of one or the other. Still working on this.
“I’m Jon Snow.” She flinched. “An evil name.”
"Hey there cutie... I'm Azor Ahai." She flinched. "An evil name."
The ranger thrust a long branch into the fire. “Not that she will. I’ve known wildlings to bite off their own tongues before they’d answer a question.” When the end of the branch was blazing merrily, he took two steps and flung it out over the pass. It fell through the night spinning until it was lost to sight.
Say goodbye to the fire moon! There she goes... falling to earth. The falling meter is a lot like a burning brand, or a burning tree. Grey King much? The burning tree, the lightning, the fiery moon meteors - they are all the same thing.
“You ought to burn them you killed,” said Ygritte. “Need a bigger fire for that, and big fires burn bright.” Stonesnake turned, his eyes scanning the black distance for any spark of light. “Are there more wildlings close by, is that it?” “Burn them,” the girl repeated stubbornly, “or it might be you’ll need them swords again.” Jon remembered dead Othor and his cold black hands. “Maybe we should do as she says.”
Remember that time last paragraph when Azor Ahai lost his sword? Well, it might be needed again when the Others come!! Again, Azor Ahai was defeated, his sword take and probably reforged, and then used against the Others by the Last Hero. Case closed. ;)
A low rumbling growl echoed off the rock. Shadowcat, Jon knew at once. As he rose he heard another, closer at hand. He pulled his sword and turned, listening. “They won’t trouble us,” Ygritte said. “It’s the dead they’ve come for. Cats can smell blood six miles off. They’ll stay near the bodies till they’ve eaten every last stringy shred o’ meat, and cracked the bones for the marrow.”
Shadowcat, in addition to being the lion of night and a shadowsword which is infused with the power of shadow fire, sounds like a dragon. Anything that roars is probably a metaphor for a dragon - that's what I have found. Interestingly, we have two shadow cat / shadow swords, and thenJon (Azor Ahai) draws his sword - three shadowswords. Given that I think the ToJ is a reversed reenactment of the Battle at Battle Isle... this is perfect.
At the ToJ, the wielder of LB (an ice warrior) came with 6 wraiths with shadowswords. They were met by three in white, their leader (Dayne, a fire warrior) wielding an ice sword. But this is backwards - the ice warrior should be wielding Ice and be dressed in white (like Others), while the fire warrior should have Dark LB and the wraiths with shadow swords. Here, we see the switch - Jon, as AA, leading the party of three, all with shadowswords. Follow?
The black stones had turned to grey and the eastern sky had gone indigo when Stonesnake spied the rangers below, wending their way upward. Jon woke his captive and held her by the arm as they descended to meet them.
The black stone (that the BSE worshipped) turned to a grey steel sword - Ned's sword - as Dawn broke after the LN. This is the reforging of LB with dragon glass. Remember the description of Ned's sword - very dark, smoky grey. This color transformation could also fit with the idea that Azor Ahai founded the Starks - black to grey - but I don't like this idea. If Azor was theLH, it's possible, because the LH is likely the founder of house stark, right?
But when he glanced up, he saw Ygritte watching with eyes as wide and white as hen’s eggs.
Ebben drew his dagger. “A steel kiss will keep her quiet.”
Compare to:
"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

Clearly, this party of three by the fallen star fire represent the moon... BUT WHICH ONE? All the fire imagery at the top of the mountain suggests the fire moon, but we have seen lots of icy imagery too.

One possibility here is that George is telling us things about both the fire and ice swords and moons at the same time, because they are identical but opposite reflections of one another. The Bones mountains section of TWOAIF is all sword metaphor, and it too seems to have clues about the icy sword and the fire sword. One thing is certain: a comet struck a moon and dragon came forth. But we are trying to press on to the next level of detail, and that can be tricky.

Hopefully some of you can take a look at this chapter analysis here and have some insight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel the same way. Don't forget about the three sisters either. There are definitely parallels between them and the ironborn, and the Davo's chapter there seems to be full of interesting stuff (see Evolett's post on crabs and the others; also an interesting reference to Ned Stark there). My initial thought on the ironborn was that it had something to do with fire and ice combining to make water/steam but that's just speculation.

Another interesting part about that chapter is the description of the night lamp:

"Lightning Split the norther sky, etching the black tower of the Night Lamp against the blue-white sky." (ADWD, Davos)

I thought it was a nice black/blue contrast while also tying all the talk about lightning.

And don't forget the squishers in the Fingers.

Putting together Ironborn, Three Sisters, and Fingers legends...scary, lol. Ha, maybe ice and fire will have to make nice to fight water. :-P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×