[Book and Show Spoilers] Alternate Sansa/Winterfell Ideas

[Good Guy Garlan]

It would've been cool to have scenes with Sansa and fake Arya (though not Jeyne). Imagine the feels! And the irony considering Sansa used to wish Arya was more ladylike and less of a troublemaker, so she'd be getting that wish but in an unexpected (and horrible) way.

Also, imagine a Littlefinger-Reek. They have so much in common, both wards, both wanted to belong to another family, etc.

[Pies are coming]

Here's a simple way to do it. Have Sansa accept her fate. Have her not be afraid, and take this awful moment as something she has to do to survive. Focus on her resisting and surviving the pain rather than Reek being horrified by it. A very simple way of actually showing that she has become a stronger character, rathen than have her become the victim again.

Although, as someone else above stated, it's better to wait and see how this storyline plays out.

Or have her go along. They enter the room, she begins to remove the coat and the more complicated pieces of clothing. She makes the kiss more passionate so she can become somewhat aroused and lubricated (hey, wasn't she "mentored" by Westeros #1 pimp?) So by the time Ramsay tells her to strip, she doesn't take long and Ramsay simply doesn't have the opportunity to assert her power by raping her, because she's perfectly willing.

Her desire will be the same (that is, none at all), but her relationship with Ramsay wouldn't have turned one of victim and aggressor, at least, not then.

And the next morning, have her do something, by God Gods R'Hollor Bran' sake!

There will be a convergence of 3 armies, Stannis, Bolton and littlefinger. Sansa can trust none of them to look out for her family's needs. All 3 will USE her and her name. She needs to get her brother Rickon ASAP.

And she gets her brother and what? Rickon is still a child and unless the Umbers aren't rowing with Gendry, they still have no army. It was up to Sansa to find the way to restore the Starks. She failed.

[Edd Tollett's One Vote]

I know it's been said before, but I'll repeat it - They could've just stretched out the engagement. There could've been any number of excuses - LF's not back, Sansa's mourning, whatever! They could've still had Theon's redemption. It would just have been spurred on by the fear of what Ramsey would do to Sansa if he could, and not the literal act itself. I don't know why that shouldn't be enough for him.

Yes, something similar might happen in the books (with Harry, or whoever), but, whether it does or not, I wish they'd changed the Sansa is fArya plot. I understand the realism, but no, I don't enjoy seeing it (or reading about it, but I find it less offensive than on Television).

[Ser Wun Wun]

The simplest change is to not have the wedding, either because it's supposed to take place when Littlefinger returns or after they beat Stannis.

This is what I was hoping would happen. They could have simply had Sansa and Ramsay be engaged, have him show his true self by tormenting her (but no rape), then have Sansa make her move to get out of Winterfell by the lighting the candle in the tower. I guess some people would have accused them of pulling their punches or whatever by not giving Sansa the Jeyne treatment, but it would have pissed off a much smaller segment of the fan base by doing that instead of having Sansa be raped.

[R4W13Y]

Oh great. An 'how I would have written it' thread. Move on people. What's done is done.

Oh great. Another person who likes to simply shut down discussions they have no interest, instead of simply moving on and finding a discussion they actually want to take part in.

Isn't this essentially a fanfiction thread?

Nope. First, it was approved by the mods, so they must deem that it is not a fanfiction thread.

My point of the thread was to respond to the two main criticisms of those who don't mind the change: 1. she "had" to marry Ramsay and 2. we are only upset because it's different from the books. 1. No they didn't. This thread shows how they could have done it differently and still keep it faithful to the books (if not the "plot" then at least the themes and characterizations). 2. We aren't. Plenty of book readers are happy with lots of changes they've made in the show, and wouldn't be unhappy with the idea of Sansa in WF if they had actually done it justice (which they didn't, in my opinion).

These discussions are about how they could have had Sansa in WF (assuming D&D know she ends up there anyway, so they want to just get her there sooner) without doing what they've done, and without ruining character arcs and internal logic and consistency in the show (my particular complaint).

Or even how they could have handled the WF and Vale arcs this season in general, whether Sansa ends up in WF or not.

Basically, the idea is to show that this was not their only option, and to argue that it was, is not a valid argument.

And to basically do all of that while thinking of adaptational decisions they could have done, based on the books.

If discussing D&D's changes is not included in the fanfiction definition, then discussing how D&D could have done it differently should also not be considered fanfiction.

So the purpose of this thread is to tell us to make something up?

No, it's to brainstorm ways in which Sansa's arc could have gone this season that wouldn't have included this controversy or the assassination of logic and characterizations. To take plots, themes, arcs, and characterizations from the books and see how they could have done Sansa and Winterfell in a faithful way (which is not what they've done, in my opinion).

We complain when D&D do not follow the books but to take the show where the OP is suggesting takes the show much farther from the books than D&D have ever done. All they have done with Sansa's storyline is combine characters as they have done in the past. This deviation may turn out to be truer to the books than others they have already done. We do not know what the future may bring for Sansa in the show or the books. For all we know in the Books Sansa may marry Harry the Heir and he turns out to be a monster too. We don't know, but D&D do. So for now although I was thoroughly disgusted by the last scene of the last episode I am going to withhold further judgment at least until the season is over or maybe not even then.

Here's the thing: book "purists" are largely not against changes that are close to the themes and characterizations of the books. Since the argument of many people who liked the scene is simply "you don't like it because it's different" or "she had to marry Ramsay" this is a way to show that those two things are wrong and only used as a way of cutting off discussion, instead of engaging in it.

This is a thread to engage in discussion about the show as an adaptation.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I'm going to wait to see how exactly it plays out, but i like the idea of the OP.

[Makk]

I think you need to start at the beginning. What is Littlefinger gaining by taking Sansa (as Alayne or not) to Winterfell. It was my biggest issue with this season, it just doesn't make sense and was pretty lazy writing.

I'm perfectly willing to have the show diverge from the books, in fact I think I have come around to encouraging it now. Look at the entire thing as an alternate universe. But I still want the show writers to get into the heads of the characters and think it through from their point of view.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Here's a simple way to do it. Have Sansa accept her fate. Have her not be afraid, and take this awful moment as something she has to do to survive. Focus on her resisting and surviving the pain rather than Reek being horrified by it.

Sorry, but this one doesn't make a whole lot of any sense. How is marrying Ramsay Bolton something she "has to do" to survive? Marrying Ramsay isn't something she "has to do" at all. She was surviving just fine in the Vale, where she was probably as safe as she could be anywhere in Westeros.

But, for the sake of argument, I'll suppose that there is some overriding reason why Sansa has to marry Ramsay. How could Littlefinger fail to notice that Sansa is the one who actually holds all the cards in that scenario? The Boltons need her; she doesn't need them. They're the ones who filched Winterfell from Theon, who stole it from Bran. They need Sansa to give them a veneer of legality to that theft. In exchange for a betrothal Littlefinger could have extracted all kinds of concessions from Roose, including the right for Sansa to be accompanied by an armed guard (Brienne, of course) at every moment just to ensure that Ramsay doesn't mistreat her.

Then, naturally, the wedding is delayed until Littlefinger is sure who wins the battle between the Boltons and Stannis. In the meantime, he keeps all his options open. Whichever side is the winner, he still has lots of scope for manuever. Plus, the added bonus of a still marriageable and virginal Sansa.

Sansa could even start showing her mettle by participating actively in the plan, providing Littlefinger with intelligence on the Northern lords and the situation with the Boltons, et. al.

Much better, according to me. :D

[Pies are coming]

Sorry, but this one doesn't make a whole lot of any sense. How is marrying Ramsay Bolton something she "has to do" to survive? Marrying Ramsay isn't something she "has to do" at all. She was surviving just fine in the Vale, where she was probably as safe as she could be anywhere in Westeros.

But, for the sake of argument, I'll suppose that there is some overriding reason why Sansa has to marry Ramsay. How could Littlefinger fail to notice that Sansa is the one who actually holds all the cards in that scenario? The Boltons need her; she doesn't need them. They're the ones who filched Winterfell from Theon, who stole it from Bran. They need Sansa to give them a veneer of legality to that theft. In exchange for a betrothal Littlefinger could have extracted all kinds of concessions from Roose, including the right for Sansa to be accompanied by an armed guard (Brienne, of course) at every moment just to ensure that Ramsay doesn't mistreat her.

Then, naturally, the wedding is delayed until Littlefinger is sure who wins the battle between the Boltons and Stannis. In the meantime, he keeps all his options open. Whichever side is the winner, he still has lots of scope for manuever. Plus, the added bonus of a still marriageable and virginal Sansa.

Sansa could even start showing her mettle by participating actively in the plan, providing Littlefinger with intelligence on the Northern lords and the situation with the Boltons, et. al.

Much better, according to me. :D

Sansa "bodyguards" would also be strengthening (or pretending to) Winterfell's garrison. Roose might not trust them, but he can hardly object.

Note that, precisely because of Roose's distrust, the wedding might still happen as a condition, so the show can still has its version of Ramsay's wedding night. But such a storyline could still have a Trojan Horse Sansa whom the audience can root for. Instead, their idea was "Have the audience hope she won't be hurt. And then hurt her".

There is a difference between conflict and a bad situation. Conflict is a clash of forces, a struggle. A bad situation is, well, a bad situation. Up to this episode, there was no conflict at Winterfell at all and no character development either. Sansa simply coasted along. Thus, no clash of forces, because Sansa isn't a force opposing the Boltons. Now, what do you make of a storyline in which characters neither grow nor are developed and conflict is absent?

[She-Ra Princess of Power]

Honestly I would have skipped Sansa for the most part this season, showing her briefly in a couple episodes becoming more manipulative and a player. Since it seems to me that the intention for her in the book appears to be rallying the Vale forces to help her take back winterfell or perhaps maybe even riverrun. I think it would have awesome in regards for the battle for winterfell to be concluded and just when the victor thinks they have it in the bag... out of nowhere Sansa shows up with an army to reclaim her home, especially so if the Boltons win. They held back on Bran so I don't see why they couldn't do it with her. This way too they could have focused and fleshed out the other characters storylines better this season or even brought in the missing characters. IMO Arianne not being in Dorne was a terrible decision. I don't mind Sansa's story,but it is less compelling to me than the others so I would have not missed her this season. Also winterfell at this point is Theon ' s perspective along with the northern lords to tell.... sigh Manderly

[Good Guy Garlan]

I don't know, I think both Bran and Sansa taking (most) of the season off would've been a bit much. I do agree that adapting Sansa's Feast storyline would be a nightmare.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don't know, I think both Bran and Sansa taking (most) of the season off would've been a bit much. I do agree that adapting Sansa's Feast storyline would be a nightmare.

It would be impossible. I love that storyline, but It's a montage, to be honest. I love seeing Sansa descending the Vale with Robin, talking with Myranda, and just character development and fleshing out is really important to me, but it wouldn't make good Tv.

[Troy Reynolds]

I would have had at least a couple of scenes in the Vale showing Sansa becoming more capable. Telling one lie and putting on a sexy dress doesn't make it believable that she is going to pull off a pretty serious con against fairly smart people. Instead of having the "girl with palsy" scene, have Sansa talking to, and getting pointers from a Myranda Royce type character. Then show her being charming and controlling with some guests of Yohn (or maybe it's Yawn in the show, kinda took the wind out of those bronze sails). Then go to Winterfell to be the instigation, charming the other Northern lords. Never being treasonous but dropping subtle hints about how much the Boltons and Freys screwed every single Northern house over. Maybe a line like, "Hmm, I am glad that we are all protected by guests' rights while staying with Lord Roose. Think about what the world would be if such ancient traditions weren't honored." Keep the fArya plot as Jeyne Poole, but only so Sansa could learn about how Littlefinger had some involvement there, to sprinkle in just a bit of distrust, helping to bring about a bit of independence from him. Still allies out of necessity for the moment, but far less trusting. Better the one you know, and now know better.

This minor delay at the beginning gives a bit of time to be introduced to the Northern lords, find out that some Freys went missing in the North because, damn it, we just plain need some Frey pies.

This sounds pretty fitting for a show that wanted to be about the political intrigue in ASOIAF.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It would be impossible. I love that storyline, but It's a montage, to be honest. I love seeing Sansa descending the Vale with Robin, talking with Myranda, and just character development and fleshing out is really important to me, but it wouldn't make good Tv.

Absolutely. It's not even a complete arc, it's just GRRM spinning his wheels and treading water. For all the (not undeserved) hate D&D get, GRRM did NOT make their job any easier with those books.

[Pies are coming]

This minor delay at the beginning gives a bit of time to be introduced to the Northern lords, find out that some Freys went missing in the North because, damn it, we just plain need some Frey pies.

I couldn't agree more

This sounds pretty fitting for a show that wanted to be about the political intrigue in ASOIAF.

But it's not. It's about gore.

[Troy Reynolds]

But it's not. It's about gore.

I'm simply, in the spirit of the thread, giving a good faith benefit of the doubt to the show runners. I almost included a chainsaw at the wedding feast, which Sansa would have used to gore though Ramsey's face, saying, "The North remembers, fuck face", then having her jam the heel of her shoe into Roose's heart while saying, "Robb Stark sends his regards, bitch", but I thought that might have been a bridge too far.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Note that, precisely because of Roose's distrust, the wedding might still happen as a condition, so the show can still has its version of Ramsay's wedding night.

Well, yeah, LOL - but my own preference would be to have Sansa not be bedded at all. I have a suspicion (which I can't know of course) that Sansa's virginity will be a big deal in the future (books, anyway), as a way to extract her from her legally-binding marriage to Tyrion. By the way the Tyrells made a big deal of Margaery's "virginity" in order to marry her to Joffrey; it sets a precedent. So the way the show had Littlefinger hand-wave Sansa's current marriage to Tyrion strikes me as possibly very short-sighted on their part. But I really can't say for sure.

On a bit of a tangent, I've come to think that including a bride for Ramsay who he mistreats, even though it was a horrible experience to read about, really is an important development for Theon. But I think the show could have put a random girl there; it didn't have to be someone the viewers were introduced to and given time to get to know. Heck (and I'm aware of how awful what I'm saying is), the show didn't even have to give her a name.

As dreadful as it is, it makes a more important development for Theon if the person he risks his life to save is not Sansa. Rescuing Sansa is a lot more of a no-brainer than rescuing some anonymous, lower-class girl that he would never have looked twice at when he was growing up at Winterfell, all full of himself. A girl who has no status and can't give him any kind of reward - so Theon forces himself to help her for only altruistic, empathetic reasons.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Just agreeing above - The fact that Theon puts his life on the line for a nobody like Jeyne Poole is extremely important for his character arc. Helping Sansa doesn't have the same impact, since she grew with him. As ironic as it may sound, as this was supposedly faithful to Theon's arc, they made sure that Theon lost his character development. That he could sacrifice for a nobody, a victim, was extremely important. It said a lot about the person he became.

[Troy Reynolds]

Just agreeing above - The fact that Theon puts his life on the line for a nobody like Jeyne Poole is extremely important for his character arc. Helping Sansa doesn't have the same impact, since she grew with him. As ironic as it may sound, as this was supposedly faithful to Theon's arc, they made sure that Theon lost his character development. That he could sacrifice for a nobody, a victim, was extremely important. It said a lot about the person he became.

I agree, a redemption arc shouldn't just make you what you were, but better than you were.

[She-Ra Princess of Power]

Ok upon further thought how about this (sorry if I'm supposed to be focused on her being in Winterfell but I can't just do that yet lol).

I totally think there should have been a fArya on hand and that she was in play at WF. But first...

I would show Sansa in the Vale getting her mentoring from LF and have Harry the heir in play as well. Since D&D love to sex it up, instead of using sex against a female why don't they show how the roles can be reversed. Sansa had her fairy tale dreams obliterated by her experiences at KL. She should not be completely naive and helpless anymore. Joff always threatened her maidenhood and she could imagine that it would not be a pleasant experience with him. This should make her hate men using that type of power against her. Also her shunning her wifely "duty" with Tyrion, makes me think that she is beginning to think that there is more to life than just being a dutiful woman, there to please a man and make things pretty and a song. So show her seducing Harry and taking charge. Show her manipulating sweet little robin and charming the Vale lords to her whims. And then I like the idea of Brienne finding her, seeing she is all well/in control and then Sansa taking her into her service to avenge her family. Then they could have showed Brienne finding the Blackfish, rallying the riverlands, rescue Edmure, and take back Riverrun (if that was in store in grrms mind). (Honestly I don't really remember the status of the riverlands in the show so i don't remember where these characters are and such.) Alas you can show the riverlands and resolve that story arc. Also when word gets back to KL, Cersei can send Jaime to take care of the problems popping up in the riverlands and he and Brienne can have their reunion, and we do not have the dismal story playing out in Dorne.

Also, with a fArya at hand, Sansa can learn of this and be plotting to avenge her family, save her sister and take back her home. I think it would be good to show a female coming to the rescue of others and not always "men" being the dashing heroes. Sansa always dreamed of some valiant hero knight to save the damsel in distress, well she would never want to be a damsel in distress ever again and instead be the hero of which songs are made of (hehe). Also showing women (her and Brienne and possibly Myranda) working together in a positive way would be a novel idea on the show. I like the idea posed of her going to White Harbor, taking the place of Davos and also learning that Rickon is alive and devising a way to find and protect him. Then like others have mentioned, with the upcoming wedding in WF she could disguise herself as part of Manderly's party to attend the wedding. Then "the north remembers can play out", but since I don't know what Grrm has in store beyond that, not sure what to say. Taking out Ramsey would be awesome in my mind. Maybe she escapes the madness at WF and helps stannis rally/encourage the northern lords assembled in the fight for WF. Stannis wanted Jon, but having Sansa is actually a better option on his side. I don't think LF would like that, but I assume and so desperately want her to take him down at some point, so maybe her suspicion of him should be developing in some way too. With any of these scenerios it would truly show her becoming a player and empowered in her own right. No sexual assault needed for her to realize she should hate the Boltons and take back her home.