Why did Rhaegar give the garland to Lyanna? A Harrenhal discussion...

[LordDireStark]

Rhaegar would never have dishonored Ashara as Arthur was one of his closest and dearest friends.

But here's something to think about....selmy said one of the young wolves dishonored Ashara at

harrenhal,how didn't arthur know who it was? Even though he was a friend and kingsguard why

would he agree to protect lyanna when one of her brothers dishonored his sister?

[SciFiFanFan]

My theory: Rhaegar is there to meet with Lords but can't since the King and all his spy's are watching him. The only time he is on his own is when the King sends him in search of the KotLT. He finds Leanna and is impressed with her daring and sense of justice. He recruits her to speak secretly with Jon Arryn asking the Lords to wait until after Elia has given birth. I am guessing she is in her first trimester and the tourney was used as an excuse to get her away from the Red Keep and the Kings increased craziness. This is also his third heir for the PwwP prophecy if you count his brother. Leanna comes up with the idea of letting Rhaegar know that all the Lords agree with this by having the tourney crown be made of blue roses which she happened to bring from home perhaps to go with a dress she planned to wear. It doesn't matter who wins the roses to get the message across. When Rhaegar does win he gives Lyanna the wreath to give The Mad King the impression that he is losing interest in his wife. Then he can send her to safety at Dragonstone without raising suspicion. He could also be acknowledging his appreciation of Lyanna's actions. He probably was not expecting Brandon's reaction but what did it matter? Rhaegar probably didn't consider Brandon an important player anyway.

[purple-eyes]

Rhaegar gave the crown because he is in love. This is very simple. 

Only love can make him totally forget about his own wife. 

Because at that moment Rhaegar only saw Lyanna, nobody else. 

Although it would be nice if he told Elia to be absent from the tourney to avoid being publicly shamed. 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Glad this was bumped, because I didn't see this response from my May 20th post at the time (since some forum features were disabled)...

 

This was never a thread about R+L=J though (strawmanning a bit aren't you? ;) ). More like a discussion on whether the garland was meant as a romantic gesture and/or whether the narrative about R&L made obvious in the books (KotLT --> garland --> abduction) should be taken at face value. Questioning the narrative doesn't automatically entail dismissing R+L=J, but could also put it in a new light.

I'd find R+L=J much better if the two characters were brought together by events than if the story was just "they fell in love and kind of forgot about everything else."

 

Also, I think you're wrong in assuming R+L=J is the central mystery, or that it set events in motion. R+L set events in motion, and we hardly know anything about it. Whatever theories one can elaborate, it doesn't change the fact that Jon is the outcome and that he is a Stark-Targaryen. But the chain of events leading to that outcome are hardly irrelevant ; if they were, they would be far less mysterious.

This thread sums a lot of things quite nicely, I couldn't really say it any better:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107376-rhaegar-and-lyanna-what-do-we-even-really-know/#entry5636702

 

I strongly disagree.

 

I'll let out a small rant on this point, which isn't directed at you (no offense intended, I know it's just a quote), but at this particular point.

I hate it when people use that. Not only is it a false dichotomy, it's a dangerous one. Assuming that love prevents you from being dutiful is a very negative view on love and thus of human nature. It's even factually wrong, since love is also a source of duty (parenthood). I'd go as far as to say that not only are love and duty compatible and often reinforce each other, but that duty itself stems from love. A good ruler must love his people. You must love your job (and responsibilities) for your work to be good. No one can achieve anything without love in their life.

As far as ASOAIF is concerned, certainly there is a running theme about how hard it is to reconcile your duty (or morality) with your own desires and impulses. But even characters who seemingly fail at doing so learn from their failures, or from others' failures, and many of the main characters have or will have the opportunity to better themselves and/or right things for others. Yes, some stories end tragically (Jon & Ygritte), but the overall message isn't as pessimistic as this perspective would make it to be.

In fact, the whole idea that two central characters are responsible for so much destruction because they acted on their hearts is, imho, irreconcilable with the tone of the entire series. While on the surface, one could assume that in the books, characters acting on their hearts suffer for it while cynics thrive, I would argue that, on the contrary, they also generally grow from their experiences (however painful), and that this allows them to truly act for the greater good. There probably won't be a happy-happy ending, but neither will the cynics be the ones to win the day.

I believe this is precisely why there are so many discussions on R+L for it is, indeed, central to the series. At this point in the books, Rhaegar's infatuation with Lyanna seems to be a cautionary tale about the consequences of an impossible love story, one which ended in absolute disaster not only for the couple, but for almost everyone they knew. It seems sad, tragic, and stupid, and evokes many other stories in literature. Which is why, if the series is to end on a more positive note, it must be revealed that Rhaegar and Lyanna really didn't do anything stupid, but on the contrary did their best for everyone, even if this means that their son will be the one to save the kingdoms that had burned because of his parents from a far greater peril.

If the message of R&L was that love breeds a selfishness so deep that it leads to the death of your children, your family, and your peoples, then Martin would be a sick bastard indeed.

Fortunately, this dark dark perspective on human nature is not supported by the text. Ned's thoughts and actions alone show that he doesn't see this love as a selfish passion. Not only does he not seem to despise Rhaegar, but he honored Lyanna by putting her statue in the crypts. When he thinks of what his promises to Lyanna cost him, he isn't thinking about a material cost, but about what it cost to his sense of justice and honor. Justice to Jon, no doubt, but also, I believe, because keeping the truth secret prevented him from clearing the memories of the dead.

There is much talk on the forum about the "redemption arcs" of Theon or Jaime, whether Arya or Tyrion will need to redeem themselves, and whether other characters like Cersei can somehow redeem themselves. But the two characters who deserve a redemption most before the end of the series are Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

I know that you wrote this months ago, Rippounet, but I think you sort of misread my post. You should have put your long rant about love vs. duty into another post, because it had very little to do with what I was talking about. 

[purple-eyes]

Glad this was bumped, because I didn't see this response from my May 20th post at the time (since some forum features were disabled)...
 
 
I know that you wrote this months ago, Rippounet, but I think you sort of misread my post. You should have put your long rant about love vs. duty into another post, because it had very little to do with what I was talking about. 

I have a hard time to believe that somebody think if jon snow save the world, then rhaegar is a saint and did everything correctly and everything he did to his family is perfectly justified.
If this is the case, then aerys, rhaella and aerys's father shared the same high honor as rhaegar because they were forced to get married to fulfil the prophecy and brought not only jon but also dany to this world.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I have a hard time to believe that somebody think if jon snow save the world, then rhaegar is a saint and did everything correctly and everything he did to his family is perfectly justified.
If this is the case, then aerys, rhaella and aerys's father shared the same high honor as rhaegar because they were forced to get married to fulfil the prophecy and brought not only jon but also dany to this world.

 

In a sense, they did.

 

It's a very specific POV to divide the world into good and evil, black and white, without any grey or in-between. Sometimes, our best intentionslead to great harm and evil. And in other cases, selfish deeds eventually lead to the greater good. It's one of the most frustrating things about our world, but it's also a mature way to look at things... because that's how things sometimes work.

[purple-eyes]

 
In a sense, they did.
 
It's a very specific POV to divide the world into good and evil, black and white, without any grey or in-between. Sometimes, our best intentionslead to great harm and evil. And in other cases, selfish deeds eventually lead to the greater good. It's one of the most frustrating things about our world, but it's also a mature way to look at things... because that's how things sometimes work.

By this logic, areys was also justified to rape and abuse rhaella because this brought dany.
However, The truth is, Areys could have had a nice and good sex with his wife to bring dany too.
His raping was not justified just because dany may save the world.
Same thing with rhaegar. He could have done it in a better way to have jon. But he used a very reckless way and caused a lot of unnecessary sacrifice. Jon is savior could not justify his action.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I have a hard time to believe that somebody think if jon snow save the world, then rhaegar is a saint and did everything correctly and everything he did to his family is perfectly justified.
If this is the case, then aerys, rhaella and aerys's father shared the same high honor as rhaegar because they were forced to get married to fulfil the prophecy and brought not only jon but also dany to this world.

 

It's not that simple.

 

Rhaegar didn't say, for what it looks like, "hey! I'm cheating my wife to save the world". He was planning to be married to her (who also had Dragon blood) and have children. Elia's inability to have more children was something he found out after Aegon's birth. By that time, his plans to remove Aerys already existed. He also  had already met Lyanna Stark. Also, he was probably trying to prepare these children for the future war, which so far, has happened. Rhaegar was the only one actually caring. Do you believe Aerys would have cared? Tywin? :dunno: In a world in which dragons exist, the possibility of a magical apocalypse is not that remote.

 

I think Rhaegar was the main central piece of the story because while he tried to set up everything for the Prophecy to happen, destiny set him up to fail.

[OuttaOldtown]

This excellent theory comes the closest to my thoughts on why..

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Queen.html

[purple-eyes]

 
It's not that simple.
 
Rhaegar didn't say, for what it looks like, "hey! I'm cheating my wife to save the world". He was planning to be married to her (who also had Dragon blood) and have children. Elia's inability to have more children was something he found out after Aegon's birth. By that time, his plans to remove Aerys already existed. He also  had already met Lyanna Stark. Also, he was probably trying to prepare these children for the future war, which so far, has happened. Rhaegar was the only one actually caring. Do you believe Aerys would have cared? Tywin? :dunno: In a world in which dragons exist, the possibility of a magical apocalypse is not that remote.
 
I think Rhaegar was the main central piece of the story because while he tried to set up everything for the Prophecy to happen, destiny set him up to fail.

Please tell me why he crowned lyanna and shamed Elia one year before he found out elia is barren. Is this necessary for the prophecy?

[Ser Naufragus]

What if it wasn't an abduction. R & L bump into each other in the riverlands, L starts whining about Bob. R says, don't worry m'lady I'll save you from that marriage, my coup is happening soon and I'll be king, Whent will escort you to a safe place. You wont have to marry Robert. So they aren't even in love, he was just doing her a favor.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

What if it wasn't an abduction. R & L bump into each other in the riverlands, L starts whining about Bob. R says, don't worry m'lady I'll save you from that marriage, my coup is happening soon and I'll be king, Whent will escort you to a safe place. You wont have to marry Robert. So they aren't even in love, he was just doing her a favor.

 

Well, just like Arthur C. Clarke famously said that any sufficiently developed technology is indistinguishable from magic, any "friends with benefits" relationship that results in a child would be indistinguishable from a love affair.

 

Whether it happened behind the scenes at Harrenhal, on the road post-abduction, or at the Tower of Joy, I strongly believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna fell for each other.

[corbon]

Rhaegar gave the crown because he is in love. This is very simple. 
Only love can make him totally forget about his own wife. 
Because at that moment Rhaegar only saw Lyanna, nobody else. 
Although it would be nice if he told Elia to be absent from the tourney to avoid being publicly shamed.

 
That is inconsistent with the scene Dany ses, Rhaegar and Elia together with baby Aegon, 9 months or more after Harrenhal, where Rhaegar thinks Aegon is the PtwP and owns the Song of Ice and Fire....
 

Please tell me why he crowned lyanna and shamed Elia one year before he found out elia is barren. Is this necessary for the prophecy?

Because it was not a huge shaming of Elia, merely an honouring of Lyanna's deeds as KotLT. Nothing to do with the prophecy at all, as shown in the later scene with Aegon and Elia.

[OuttaOldtown]

Rhaegar gave the crown because he is in love. This is very simple. 
Only love can make him totally forget about his own wife. 

I don't think it's necessarily that simple, people also need to stop acting like he married Elia out of love, it was arranged line must others. He showed no signs of ever being unfaithful so theirs no pattern of cheating or that he was looking around for something better. I believe he saw the sign he was looking for when he discovered Lyanna was tKatLT , whether he and Lyanna fell in love after is probably true, I have doubts that it began due purely to love..

[purple-eyes]

 
That is inconsistent with the scene Dany ses, Rhaegar and Elia together with baby Aegon, 9 months or more after Harrenhal, where Rhaegar thinks Aegon is the PtwP and owns the Song of Ice and Fire....
 
Because it was not a huge shaming of Elia, merely an honouring of Lyanna's deeds as KotLT. Nothing to do with the prophecy at all, as shown in the later scene with Aegon and Elia.

Why inconsistent? Rhaegar fell in love with lyanna.
But he still continued to have child with elia due to his duty and also prophecy.
Crowning and loving lyanna is nothing about prophecy, just rhaegar's own love affair.

[purple-eyes]

I don't think it's necessarily that simple, people also need to stop acting like he married Elia out of love, it was arranged line must others. He showed no signs of ever being unfaithful so theirs no pattern of cheating or that he was looking around for something better. I believe he saw the sign he was looking for when he discovered Lyanna was tKatLT , whether he and Lyanna fell in love after is probably true, I have doubts that it began due purely to love..

He did not love elia for sure. He fell in love with lyanna in HH.
He crowned her due to love and also respect for her deeds.
But he remained physically faithful and had child with elia. He thought elia can give him three children.
Suddenly elia can not havmore children, then rhaegar decided to find the woman he loved to have one more child.

He shamed his wife because he wanted to present his love to lyanna.
Maybe he thought this would even be a better way to impress lyanna by shaming his wife: see? Lyanna, i love you so much so madly that I even can publicly shame my wife just for you! Lyanna would be highly flattered. What else can prove a man's love better than this?
I love you so much that I do not care if I ruin my and my wife's reputation.

[OuttaOldtown]

He did not love elia for sure. He fell in love with lyanna in HH.
He crowned her due to love and also respect for her deeds.
But he remained physically faithful and had child with elia. He thought elia can give him three children.
Suddenly elia can not havmore children, then rhaegar decided to find the woman he loved to have one more child.

He shamed his wife because he wanted to present his love to lyanna.
Maybe he thought this would even be a better way to impress lyanna by shaming his wife: see? Lyanna, i love you so much so madly that I even can publicly shame my wife just for you! Lyanna would be highly flattered. What more can prove a man's love than this?

Show me the quotes where we definitely learn he crowned her for love and her deeds?

[purple-eyes]

Show me the quotes where we definitely learn he crowned her for love and her deeds?

Of course there is no quote. This is the biggest mystery of the book. This is just my opinion which is also many people's opinion. By th way, the title is queen of love and beauty.
Love and beauty. It is so clear even by its name.

[OuttaOldtown]

Of course there is no quote. This is the biggest mystery of the book. This is just my opinion which is also many people's opinion. By th way, the title is queen of love and beauty.
Love and beauty. It is so clear even by its name.

Well I totally disagree that it was simply love, regardless of that title. It was ceremonial, placing the crown of winter roses on the queen of the north. Then marrying by stealing her off, the way of the free folk. This completed the pact of Ice & Fire, making Jon TPtwP. That's my opinion, it's not as simple as love..

[purple-eyes]

Well I totally disagree that it was simply love, regardless of that title. It was ceremonial, placing the crown of winter roses on the queen of the north. Then marrying by stealing her off, the way of the free folk. This completed the pact of Ice & Fire, making Jon TPtwP. That's my opinion, it's not as simple as love..

Come on, after one year rhaegar still thought aegon is the promised prince with the song of ice and fire.