Why did Rhaegar give the garland to Lyanna? A Harrenhal discussion...

[Marcel]

Joanna of Castile: one of the reasons she was dubbed the Mad was the fact that she was prone to jealous fits in public. Queens were supposed to take whatever their royal husbands threw at them with grace and dignity. Doesn't make the husbands less of louts.

Catherine de Medici comes to mind. She looked quite content to be publicly humiliated for Diane de Poitiers. When Henry died, it was quite another thing. Turned out that she had been less than pleased to be passed over for 20 years.

Even if Elia didn't start screeching to delight every gossiper around, that tells us nothing about her feelings and even less about her reaction when she was left alone with her victorious husband.

As far as I know, Diane de Poitiers was a long time friend of Henry II, so I don't think this is a perfect comparision. Henry probably had an affair with her before his marriage to Catherine, but I may be wrong. And Joanna of Castille was confined for much of her life, jealous fits were just one of her many outburst. Because of all the tribulations she had in life, her unstable behavior is not a surprise. She is more like Lysa Arryn than Elia Martell. I will have to check their bios.

[Marcel]

Lack of evidence is not evidence. Just because her reaction or Oberyn's or no other reaction was specifically noted does not mean there were no reactions.

For instance, maybe both Oberyn and Elia were smiling and then, along with everyone else, their smiles died.

Yes, that's a fair point. But Yandel didn't mention it, so I believe her reaction wasn't something that could be used against Rhaegar's behaviour. It's odd that her reaction wasn't noteworthy.

[Rippounet]

Fair enough, I suppose we can read different things in that vision. ;)

There was a second one. He made Lyanna his mistress, or wife, or whatever, no matter whether he abducted her or not. And I am not the only one who thinks it was the first gesture. Barristan and Kevan, for one, agree with me.

This is what bothers me. Whenever the significance of the garland is discussed, Lyanna's abduction by Rhaegar is always used to prove that the garland was indeed a romantic gesture (or at least, proof of interest). And the reverse is true: try to argue the abduction doesn't make sense, and then the garland is used to say it was proof of Rhaegar's interest.

It's as if those two incidents just stood alone, without anything or anybody else to say Rhaegar actually fell in love with Lyanna.

[Rippounet]

And the most coherent and supported notion is still that Ashara and Ned had the relationship and he was "Stark" according to Barristan. Brandon is clearly a hot head (attested to as the "wolf blood") so frankly we don't need to suppose any secrets to him to explain his behavior anymore then Robert. I don't suppose he was totally in love with Cat or going be completely loyal to her, but its still Ned that the connection is drawn with unless I've missed something.

Lady Dustin?

No it doesn't make sense that's the thing. There are a trillion ways to insult a man in Westeros. And its taking as fact something that's its own hypothesis that has to be proven to a high degree of certainty before it can be used in other ways. You've just got yourself twisted into circles.

Indeed. The thread has almost run its course now. At least as far as I'm concerned.

And no alternative is as compelling as Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Fair enough, but the Laughing Tree tale even points to potential mutual attraction where Rhaegar made the fiery Lyanna cry with song. Not that I suppose they went right to making the Steam of Ice and Fire at Harrenhal or such. The Laughing Tree tale still provides the most coherent motive and chain of events. Which if not full on love was a certain high regard.

Yes.

This whole narrative seems to belong in another genre though. It's just so... beautiful? Almost like one of Sansa's stories.

No dice, Martells were indeed pissed and took it out on Rhaegar by holding back their full efforts.

Well, damn. ;)

Regardless keep in mind that the more you are convinced of something the more "evidence" one tends to find.

Yes, this is why I'm not going back to the books to find every little quote on Rhaegar. ;)

You're arguing at cross purposes here. How can Aerys having a lot of support make marching for Rhaegar suicide. Aerys and Rhaegar didn't have support, House Targaryen did together. March for one you march for both.

Oh no, the World Book makes it clear there was division at the court, and that there were clearly supporters of Aerys and supporters of Rhaegar. If Tywin had marched against Aerys, he couldn't have counted on the Houses which eventually rebelled against House Targaryen as a whole.

It's only after Lyanna's abduction that it becomes a pro-Targ/anti-Targ thing. Hmm... That makes it quite convenient for anyone hating Targaryens too: the promising Crown Prince is just lumped together with his father, and even gets killed.

Anyway, as much as Tywin liked Rhaegar, maybe he just wasn't ready to go to war for him. And since he pretty much vanished at the beginning of 282AC, there's little Tywin could do.

On its own would be a scandal but might pass with time as long as Lyanna marries Robert. Yet with a failing king anything jeopardizing the support of House Targaryen can be critical.

You place great stock that Rhaegar could somehow have talked his way out of things... but politics doesn't tend to work that way. The people involved have other people they answer to, they can't react freely lest all their bannermen and smallfolk cease to respect them. Power resides where men believe it resides remember, you don't show you have power and you may find soon you don't.

Well, Rhaegar had two children whose hands he could promise to great Houses. Of course, Targaryens tend to wed brother and sister, but he was himself married to a Dornish, so he could have been tempted to forget the traditional incest for political gain. With such an offer, I reckon he could have won much political support.

But I'm just being optimistic. ;)

[Anath]

As far as I know, Diane de Poitiers was a long time friend of Henry II, so I don't think this is a perfect comparision. Henry probably had an affair with her before his marriage to Catherine, but I may be wrong. And Joanna of Castille was confined for much of her life, jealous fits were just one of her many outburst. Because of all the tribulations she had in life, her unstable behavior is not a surprise. She is more like Lysa Arryn than Elia Martell. I will have to check their bios.

I wasn't aiming for a perfect comparison. Anyway, Henry married Catherine when they were both 14, so not much time for a long devoted affair beforehand. Anyway, my focus wasn't on Henry and Diane but how long Catherine sucked it without a single public fit. When it was safe to let her feelings show, he did. Same about Joanna. Her jealous fits in public were just not what a queen did. End of story. No one cared how hurt, offended, furious, or whatever the queen might be. Elia had a strong motive to not react in public.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

A "main character knows he must eventually sacrifice himself for the greater good" trope? Oh, I think this one will be in the last book. With a plot twist. ;)

I couldn't agree more.

[Marcel]

I wasn't aiming for a perfect comparison. Anyway, Henry married Catherine when they were both 14, so not much time for a long devoted affair beforehand. Anyway, my focus wasn't on Henry and Diane but how long Catherine sucked it without a single public fit. When it was safe to let her feelings show, he did. Same about Joanna. Her jealous fits in public were just not what a queen did. End of story. No one cared how hurt, offended, furious, or whatever the queen might be. Elia had a strong motive to not react in public.

To be honest, I do not know if this comparison with historical characters is valid. The fact that Catherine had no power to do something about Diana does not mean, for example, that she smiled and remained indifferent to each public outrage from Henry II, only that her opinion on that matter was irrelevant. I will look for references in ASoIaF on public displays of dissatisfaction on the part of women with power. Cercei is one that come to mind.

Just a side note - I was surprised by this (from the Wikipedia):

"Catherine tried every known trick for getting pregnant, such as placing cow dung and ground stags' antlers on her "source of life", and drinking mule's urine"

The good old science at work!

[Anath]

"Catherine tried every known trick for getting pregnant, such as placing cow dung and ground stags' antlers on her "source of life", and drinking mule's urine"

The good old science at work!

What wouldn't a desperate woman do! Ten years of marriage and not a single kid to show up for it. The interesting bit is that something worked since she gave birth to ten children in rapid succession.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

The majority of TWOIAF is true, because nobody would write a 1500 page bias book full of lies... if there is bias it´s towards ASOIAF times and even then, most is true... because otherwise grrm would have to write 5 more books...

About Robert's reaction folks can believe he laughed and got mad or he didn´t... the art (outside book reality/bias) though, shows this...

http://www.paolopuggioni.com/admin/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tourney.jpg

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The majority of TWOIAF is true, because nobody would write a 1500 page bias book full of lies... if there is bias it´s towards ASOIAF times and even then, most is true... because otherwise grrm would have to write 5 more books...

About Robert's reaction folks can believe he laughed and got mad or he didn´t... the art (outside book reality/bias) though, shows this...

http://www.paolopuggioni.com/admin/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tourney.jpg

That art has Elia at the end. She would be in the center. Nice picture though. Which one is supposed to be Brandon? Is that the one Robert's got a hand on?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

That art has Elia at the end. She would be in the center. Nice picture though. Which one is supposed to be Brandon? Is that the one Robert's got a hand on?

Yes, for that reaction he surely is Brandon who looked more pissed off than Ned, who is on Lyanna's right side... and yes, Elia is the woman at the far end...

This is part of the official TWOIAF art... permited by GRRM, like the Trident duel or Dunk vs Lyonel

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

The only problem with R+L=J is, as many have noted, the Internet... and the long wait between books.

R+L=J is the glue that holds ASOIAF together, set events in motion starting with RR, and is the central mystery.

We've had to wait so long until we now have theories about The Theory. The danger is getting too far away from the source texts, and theorizing crackpots based on a widely accepted fan theory instead of the text itself.

Dismissing love (unless it turns out Robert was right) undermines the most important thematic elements Rhaegar and Lyanna bring to the table. Namely the deconstruction and horrible price paid for acting on your heart flying in the face of chivalric romance the series apes and which can't really be matched by sneaky political sneakiness whatever its purpose or motivation.

Oh and no explanation works better because Rhaegar crowning Lyanna is a fundamentally stupid move for any motivation. Offending let see three great houses in one fell swoop, as the heir to the realm uh uh nope that's dumb any way you look at it and Rhaegar is not supposed to be an idiot or a fool. You need something irrationally motivating here and even anger doesn't quite match a gesture like this.

While I disagree with you about Tywin's role, SolomonBlack, you've hit the nail on the head here. GRRM says that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about, and that message underpins all of the novels. Rhaegar had political and prophetic paths in the early 280s, but the Gladwellian "tipping point?"

Somewhere along the way, he fell in love.

And love is the death of duty. Always.

I doubt that Lyanna stayed in Harrenhal after the tournament for two reason.

1) Ladies-in-Waiting and Handmaidens are noble women that serves a lady of a higher hank. So a queen, princess or lady of a great house would never served like maiden in the castle of other house. Lyanna was daughter of a Great Lord so was more likely that she had her own ladies-in-waiting in Winterfell than serves like one. We have many examples of noble women serving as handmaidens, Ladies-in-Waiting and companions in the books all serving ladies of higher hank.

2) Ladies-in-Waiting serve houses whose they have close ties and we have no evidence that the Starks were close of House Whent and even with Hoster Tully been the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, liege of the Whents and married with a Whent may be they (surprisingly) was not so close of this house. Hoster and his family did not attended the Tourney of Harrenhal. They were close to Rhaegar, accepted to held a Tourney on his request. Rhaegar sponsored the event and in exchange the Whents could claim that they were most more powerful than they really were. Oswell Whent was member of the Kingsguard and loyal to Rhaegar. We don't know which side the Whents fought in the war. So, if the loyalty of this House with the Tullys was dubious his relationship with Starks, that would be mediated by house Tuly, would be even more questionable. If Lyanna serve like handmaiden/ lady-o-waiting would be in Riverrun, with Catelyn, her future sister-in-law.

Lyanna was catch by Rhaegar 50 km of Harrenhal and the castle is close of the crossing of the Trident and the River Road is more likely she was going to Riverrun to attend her brother's wedding.

I disagree. I don't think that Lyanna ever returned to Winterfell before she disappeared. I think she stayed in the Riverlands during the months between the tourney and early 282 AC.

Rank aside, Catelyn would have been seen as rather young to host Lyanna, who was but a few years younger. She is the chatelaine of Riverrun by now because IIRC, Lady Minisa (nee Whent) is dead. The Whents were powerful enough to marry into the Tullys and to have a member of the elite Kingsguard, so just because they weren't Lords Paramount doesn't mean they wouldn't be respectable enough for Lyanna Stark. Not only don't the Starks have that kind of snobbery, as they mingle their blood with their bannermen all of the time, all of the noble families do, and so do the royal Targaryens! Betha Blackwood and Dyanna Dayne weren't from the "top" Houses in their realms, either.

We don't know much about the Whents, but we do know quite a bit about Harrenhal, and we've spent perhaps more time in the Riverlands than many other locales around Westeros. I think it's no coincidence that so many pre canon and canonical events were centered there. This is not the thread for a full analysis of the Riverlands' significance to the series, but I thought it pretty clear that Lyanna remained there after the QoLaB incident.

Besides, the logistics of the Prince and his men intercepting Lyanna on the road, while fodder for many a fanfic, just defies logic. How on earth would she have gotten away from her father's men? We'd have to get into elaborate kidnapping schemes that a highly conspicuous, silver haired and purple eyed Prince, or his equally recognizable Kingsguard, would be foolish to engage in, especially with Aerys on the brink of madness.

Rhaegar wasn't even going to the Riverlands ISO the girl, anyway... he and those who rode with him had other pressing business. It makes far more sense that he was attending to whatever that business was, and Lyanna steals away from Harrenhal to find him.

There is a huge gap in this reasoning. The premise is that

a) Men who are close "fond" to their wives have no reason to look at/want another woman

b ) Rhaegar is a man

c) Rhaegar is close to his wife Elia

thus:

d) Rhaegar had no reason to want another woman

so:

e) It is unlikely that Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna

For d to be true, a,b,and c need to be true. I won't argue against b and c, but I believe that premise a is very very flimsy.

Plenty of men, and women, look at and desire other men and women, despite the fact that they may indeed still be madly in love with their spouses. It could be argued that a man or woman may even feel love for another man or woman, even despite still being deeply in love with their spouse.

The evidence of Rhaegar's devotion to Elia seems to me to be rather thin. He is described as being "fond" of Elia? Being "fond" of someone usually isn't a descriptor of feelings of deep love and devotion. Understandable I suppose in the realm of arranged marriages. I personally am very fond of many things. I'm fond of my pets, dogs, and cats. I'm fond of some of my neighbors. I'm fond of Maker's Mark bourbon. The feelings that I have for my wife, children, parents, and siblings could not be contained by the word "fond".

Finally, the feeling of love doesn't not usually have anything to do with "reason". It's a passion. It's emotion. Wether it is love in the form of desire, friendship, or devotion, it has nothing to do with reason. If you are substituting "reason" for "cause", then a cause for desire can be a little as too much hormones and too little self control. But even then, Rhaegar has ample causes to feel desire for Lyanna Stark.

So you recognize that Rhaegar may have had admiration for Lyanna's valor and honor (no u's here, we do things right) if the theory of her being the Knight of the Laughing Tree is correct, and that Rhaegar discovered her. Is not admiration for a woman's valor and honor enough of a cause for Rhaegar to desire Lyanna? Aren't the greatest of loves built on admiration and respect of another's actions and character? So if the theory turns out to be true, there was ample cause for Rhaegar to desire Lyanna, if indeed Rhaegar admired those aspects of character. Of course, it could also be as simple as Lyanna having a really nice ass too. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.

I don't believe the garland can be construed as proof of romantic feelings. It's possible to have respect and admiration without sexual desire. But there is also no proof at all that it wasn't a romantic gesture, and given the latter kidnapping or elopement, if Rhaegar DID fall in love with Lyanna, then it occurred or had it's seeds in Harrenhall.

:agree: And that's why the story of the KoLT was never told to the Stark children. I'm also a subscriber to the "seeded or sparked at Harrenhal" theory. I think there was a ton going on behind everyone's back at that Tourney. If Brandon could have "dishonored" Ashara, and some combination of Lyanna/Howland/Benjen came up with the ultimate payback scheme for a bunch of bullies, then Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen could have had a chance encounter or conversation, one that no one but his Kingsguard knew about.

Think so? Excluding prompted gifts (secret santa at the office etc.) reciprocated gifts, and gifts for services rendered straight males don't give gifts to women unless its part of a mating ritual. Its simple biology. Sure there are some aberrations out there that can't make sense of their genetic programming but by and large no.

No, a gift doesn't mean sexual intent. I've also received gifts, favors, and kind gestures, even flowers, from straight male friends. I've also given such gifts to my own platonic friends, and would be quite angry if they assumed sexual intent.

Trust me, if a straight woman wants to have a sex with a man? We have many other ways of letting him know. :cool4:

The majority of TWOIAF is true, because nobody would write a 1500 page bias book full of lies... if there is bias it´s towards ASOIAF times and even then, most is true... because otherwise grrm would have to write 5 more books...

Exactly. People overstate the POV bias effect. Most often, one can separate truth from slant from knowing what kind of people these characters are.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Yes, for that reaction he surely is Brandon who looked more pissed off than Ned, who is on Lyanna's right side... and yes, Elia is the woman at the far end...

This is part of the official TWOIAF art... permited by GRRM, like the Trident duel or Dunk vs Lyonel

It still has Elia in the wrong place. Royalty sit in the middle, per medieval tournament ettiquette.

Interesting that Robert is the one restraining Brandon. I had the idea that it would be Ned and some of Brandon's friends. That's also not much of a restraint, which makes me wonder if Brandon was thinking of picking a fight with Rhaegar later that night maybe.

[SolomonBlack]

Yes.

This whole narrative seems to belong in another genre though. It's just so... beautiful? Almost like one of Sansa's stories.

Hey even down in the mud and the shit there's going to be a couple wildflowers blooming.

Heck its possible the whole series ends on a hopeful note... I mean I'm not putting any coin on that but its possible.

Oh no, the World Book makes it clear there was division at the court, and that there were clearly supporters of Aerys and supporters of Rhaegar. If Tywin had marched against Aerys, he couldn't have counted on the Houses which eventually rebelled against House Targaryen as a whole.

It's only after Lyanna's abduction that it becomes a pro-Targ/anti-Targ thing. Hmm... That makes it quite convenient for anyone hating Targaryens too: the promising Crown Prince is just lumped together with his father, and even gets killed.

Anyway, as much as Tywin liked Rhaegar, maybe he just wasn't ready to go to war for him. And since he pretty much vanished at the beginning of 282AC, there's little Tywin could do.

The lickspittles and flatterers seem to be Aery's main "supporters" given who he had for Hands after Tywin, not say Great Houses. Dare I question the likely competence of anyone that would prefer the Mad Kind to the Last Dragon on the Pointy Seat?

Well, Rhaegar had two children whose hands he could promise to great Houses. Of course, Targaryens tend to wed brother and sister, but he was himself married to a Dornish, so he could have been tempted to forget the traditional incest for political gain. With such an offer, I reckon he could have won much political support.

But I'm just being optimistic. ;)

Married to whom though? And a decade away during which much could change and were in the days when plenty of kids die before age five. There's reasons they tend to wait until say you can send the brat off to be fostered and preferably until they're sprouting short hairs.

The majority of TWOIAF is true, because nobody would write a 1500 page bias book full of lies... if there is bias it´s towards ASOIAF times and even then, most is true... because otherwise grrm would have to write 5 more books...

About Robert's reaction folks can believe he laughed and got mad or he didn´t... the art (outside book reality/bias) though, shows this...

http://www.paolopuggioni.com/admin/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tourney.jpg

The text is generally but not absolutely reliable... the art is another matter entirely.

Like someone seems to have once again confused a direwolf with Godzilla. I don't know how this happens ;)

[Kal-L]

It still has Elia in the wrong place. Royalty sit in the middle, per medieval tournament ettiquette.

Interesting that Robert is the one restraining Brandon. I had the idea that it would be Ned and some of Brandon's friends. That's also not much of a restraint, which makes me wonder if Brandon was thinking of picking a fight with Rhaegar later that night maybe.

This. Besides in the book it is said that Ned was at the side of her sister but Brandon was never mentioned with them at the crowning, looking at the elder reaction I'm sure it would have been mentioned in Eddard POV just like Robert's laugh. I always assumed that Brandon and Robert who had both participated to the tourney as jouster and melee fighter were with others friends of them who had participated too (probably those who restraint Brandon)

[Rippounet]

The only problem with R+L=J is, as many have noted, the Internet... and the long wait between books.

R+L=J is the glue that holds ASOIAF together, set events in motion starting with RR, and is the central mystery.

We've had to wait so long until we now have theories about The Theory. The danger is getting too far away from the source texts, and theorizing crackpots based on a widely accepted fan theory instead of the text itself

This was never a thread about R+L=J though (strawmanning a bit aren't you? ;) ). More like a discussion on whether the garland was meant as a romantic gesture and/or whether the narrative about R&L made obvious in the books (KotLT --> garland --> abduction) should be taken at face value. Questioning the narrative doesn't automatically entail dismissing R+L=J, but could also put it in a new light.

I'd find R+L=J much better if the two characters were brought together by events than if the story was just "they fell in love and kind of forgot about everything else."

Also, I think you're wrong in assuming R+L=J is the central mystery, or that it set events in motion. R+L set events in motion, and we hardly know anything about it. Whatever theories one can elaborate, it doesn't change the fact that Jon is the outcome and that he is a Stark-Targaryen. But the chain of events leading to that outcome are hardly irrelevant ; if they were, they would be far less mysterious.

This thread sums a lot of things quite nicely, I couldn't really say it any better:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107376-rhaegar-and-lyanna-what-do-we-even-really-know/#entry5636702

And love is the death of duty. Always.

I strongly disagree.

I'll let out a small rant on this point, which isn't directed at you (no offense intended, I know it's just a quote), but at this particular point.

I hate it when people use that. Not only is it a false dichotomy, it's a dangerous one. Assuming that love prevents you from being dutiful is a very negative view on love and thus of human nature. It's even factually wrong, since love is also a source of duty (parenthood). I'd go as far as to say that not only are love and duty compatible and often reinforce each other, but that duty itself stems from love. A good ruler must love his people. You must love your job (and responsibilities) for your work to be good. No one can achieve anything without love in their life.

As far as ASOAIF is concerned, certainly there is a running theme about how hard it is to reconcile your duty (or morality) with your own desires and impulses. But even characters who seemingly fail at doing so learn from their failures, or from others' failures, and many of the main characters have or will have the opportunity to better themselves and/or right things for others. Yes, some stories end tragically (Jon & Ygritte), but the overall message isn't as pessimistic as this perspective would make it to be.

In fact, the whole idea that two central characters are responsible for so much destruction because they acted on their hearts is, imho, irreconcilable with the tone of the entire series. While on the surface, one could assume that in the books, characters acting on their hearts suffer for it while cynics thrive, I would argue that, on the contrary, they also generally grow from their experiences (however painful), and that this allows them to truly act for the greater good. There probably won't be a happy-happy ending, but neither will the cynics be the ones to win the day.

I believe this is precisely why there are so many discussions on R+L for it is, indeed, central to the series. At this point in the books, Rhaegar's infatuation with Lyanna seems to be a cautionary tale about the consequences of an impossible love story, one which ended in absolute disaster not only for the couple, but for almost everyone they knew. It seems sad, tragic, and stupid, and evokes many other stories in literature. Which is why, if the series is to end on a more positive note, it must be revealed that Rhaegar and Lyanna really didn't do anything stupid, but on the contrary did their best for everyone, even if this means that their son will be the one to save the kingdoms that had burned because of his parents from a far greater peril.

If the message of R&L was that love breeds a selfishness so deep that it leads to the death of your children, your family, and your peoples, then Martin would be a sick bastard indeed.

Fortunately, this dark dark perspective on human nature is not supported by the text. Ned's thoughts and actions alone show that he doesn't see this love as a selfish passion. Not only does he not seem to despise Rhaegar, but he honored Lyanna by putting her statue in the crypts. When he thinks of what his promises to Lyanna cost him, he isn't thinking about a material cost, but about what it cost to his sense of justice and honor. Justice to Jon, no doubt, but also, I believe, because keeping the truth secret prevented him from clearing the memories of the dead.

There is much talk on the forum about the "redemption arcs" of Theon or Jaime, whether Arya or Tyrion will need to redeem themselves, and whether other characters like Cersei can somehow redeem themselves. But the two characters who deserve a redemption most before the end of the series are Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[corbon]

So I'll stand by my theory that the narrative we have doesn't make sense,

Yes it does. Or rather, it can, easily. The problem is almost everybody uses the 'facts' as distorted by their own perceptions, rather than just as 'the facts' that could have any one of many different truths behind them. This forces them to create a distorted narrative that inevitably has issues somewhere.

Lyanna was KotLT.

Rhaegar found out but respected her honour and courage and did not turn her in. Possibly was even attracted to her.

As per the vision, and his past history, Rhaegar is already working toward prophecy. He changed his lifestyle in his youth based on something he read, believing he must be a warrior. Most likely he thought at that stage that he was the PtwP. It seems later events or reading or discussion with Aemon something changed his mind and by Aegon's birth, and most likely some time before that (and before Harrenhal), he had changed his belief that his son would be the PtwP and must have two siblings - the three headed dragon and 'there must be one more".

So at Harrenhal then he is working toward the three headed dragon with Elia, part dragon herself. Elia is still well capable of providing 2 more kids. So he has strong reason to stay faithful and continue on his course toward prophecy ignoring any minor an unimportant attractions along the way.

So when he finds out about Lyanna, he may well be attracted but nothing personal comes of it. However by winning the tourney he has an opportunity to show her public honour and respect for her actions without revealing the KotLTs identity.

Some people (at the tourney) misconstrue his action, not entirely surprising given the political temperament of the time - note that Brandon was beaten by Rhaegar toward the end of the tourney and the wild wolf acts notably over the top in at least one other situation later too.

Note also that we hear no other hint of any relationship or scandal between Rhaegar and Lyanna for around a whole year until the abduction. Given the times, and the context, and the later events its quite extraordinary that there is no gossip that comes down to us about Rhaegar and Lyanna if the QoLaB was a huge scandal developed beyond the immediate moment. It seems likely that something defused that potential scandal fairly quickly (which could be very easily done) even if it re-flared a year later after the supposed abduction.

Note also that while the honouring of the QoLaB can imply a romantic thing, and often does, it need not imply anything romantic. And if it is not romantic there is no insult to Elia (at this time), or anyone else. The proof of that (romantic or not) would be what happens in the next days or weeks. Far too many posters insist that it was definitely romantic and a huge insult, but the truth is while that can be the implication, and that it can easily be initially misconstrued as the implication even if it is not, it need not be, and without further actions or events in the short term, it is not. And was not, as far as we know.

Note also that the SSM which is regularly quoted as showing Dorne was angered at Harrenhal does not say or even imply that. That SSM is discussing Dorne's feeling towards the end of the rebellion, which is after Rhaegar appears to have abducted another woman and run off with her (possibly even married her) and there is no doubt that Dorne would see those actions as huge insults to Elia. It is false logic to automatically attribute Dorne's anger back to a year earlier and much lesser potential insults when some much greater and more recent insults account for it more than satisfactorily.

Note also that Dorne's 'anger' was not sufficient to prevent them actually sending a large army to support the crown and fight under Rhaegar.

Heck, the smiles dying, the anger, Brandon's response, and especially Robert's response, could all be entirely politically motivated without even the thought of any romantic implication from any of them. The king and his heir are at major loggerheads. There is factions at court working against each other. There may be a Northern Conspiracy working, there's the falling out between Aerys and Tywin. There is the Jaime Lannister incident. There is the KotLT and Aerys' response. And into this mass of tension, at the greatest tournament in living memory where everyone is coming together for the first time after winter, when everyone expects Rhaegar to merely honour his wife, as bland and unpolitical statement as anyone could wish for to end a divisive and eventful tourney, and he rides past her (holy shit, wtf, what is he doing, what does this mean!) and lays the garland in the lap of the Warden of the North's only daughter. No wonder the smiles died. Bradnon's anger could have many reasons, political or personal. Robert laughs because its a so very Robert act - feck the politics, give it to who you want to give it to and cock a snoot at all those plots and machinations. Rhaegar just believes that tKotLT deserves honouring and with no follow up and possibly even counter followup, everyone will see soon enough that its neither a plot nor an insult.

Or maybe not. Maybe they did think it was romantic. We can't tell.

I submit that the idea-chain that:

1. Rhaegar met Lyanna as KotLT, and was possibly quite attracted to her, but formed no romantic attachment during Harrenhal due to no.2

2. Rhaegar continued working on the PtwP and 3 heads of the dragon with Elia before and after Harrenhal as per Dany's vision

3. At Aegon's birth Rhaegar was still committed to Elia, the PtwP and the three heads plan

4. After Aegon's birth when the Maesters said Elia could no longer have children, Rhaegar began looking for alternative ways to get the third head of the dragon.

5. Needing another wife, the KotLT comes to mind (and she's Ice to his Fire as well, perhaps thats significant?)

6. The restoration of long unused Targaryen polygamy may also come to mind here

is the narrative that we actually have (I see a lot made of the idea that R+L=J = they fell in love at Harrenhal, but thats never been the general case in truth, just a sub-theory within the theory with some followers), which fits all the data we have and works coherently from every perspective.

[Rippounet]

Yes it does. Or rather, it can, easily. The problem is almost everybody uses the 'facts' as distorted by their own perceptions, rather than just as 'the facts' that could have any one of many different truths behind them. This forces them to create a distorted narrative that inevitably has issues somewhere.

Well, I could agree with this but...

Lyanna was KotLT.

Rhaegar found out but respected her honour and courage and did not turn her in. Possibly was even attracted to her.

As per the vision, and his past history, Rhaegar is already working toward prophecy. He changed his lifestyle in his youth based on something he read, believing he must be a warrior. Most likely he thought at that stage that he was the PtwP. It seems later events or reading or discussion with Aemon something changed his mind and by Aegon's birth, and most likely some time before that (and before Harrenhal), he had changed his belief that his son would be the PtwP and must have two siblings - the three headed dragon and 'there must be one more".

So at Harrenhal then he is working toward the three headed dragon with Elia, part dragon herself. Elia is still well capable of providing 2 more kids. So he has strong reason to stay faithful and continue on his course toward prophecy ignoring any minor an unimportant attractions along the way.

So when he finds out about Lyanna, he may well be attracted but nothing personal comes of it. However by winning the tourney he has an opportunity to show her public honour and respect for her actions without revealing the KotLTs identity.

Some people (at the tourney) misconstrue his action, not entirely surprising given the political temperament of the time - note that Brandon was beaten by Rhaegar toward the end of the tourney and the wild wolf acts notably over the top in at least one other situation later too.

Note also that we hear no other hint of any relationship or scandal between Rhaegar and Lyanna for around a whole year until the abduction. Given the times, and the context, and the later events its quite extraordinary that there is no gossip that comes down to us about Rhaegar and Lyanna if the QoLaB was a huge scandal developed beyond the immediate moment. It seems likely that something defused that potential scandal fairly quickly (which could be very easily done) even if it re-flared a year later after the supposed abduction.

Note also that while the honouring of the QoLaB can imply a romantic thing, and often does, it need not imply anything romantic. And if it is not romantic there is no insult to Elia (at this time), or anyone else. The proof of that (romantic or not) would be what happens in the next days or weeks. Far too many posters insist that it was definitely romantic and a huge insult, but the truth is while that can be the implication, and that it can easily be initially misconstrued as the implication even if it is not, it need not be, and without further actions or events in the short term, it is not. And was not, as far as we know.

Note also that the SSM which is regularly quoted as showing Dorne was angered at Harrenhal does not say or even imply that. That SSM is discussing Dorne's feeling towards the end of the rebellion, which is after Rhaegar appears to have abducted another woman and run off with her (possibly even married her) and there is no doubt that Dorne would see those actions as huge insults to Elia. It is false logic to automatically attribute Dorne's anger back to a year earlier and much lesser potential insults when some much greater and more recent insults account for it more than satisfactorily.

Note also that Dorne's 'anger' was not sufficient to prevent them actually sending a large army to support the crown and fight under Rhaegar.

Heck, the smiles dying, the anger, Brandon's response, and especially Robert's response, could all be entirely politically motivated without even the thought of any romantic implication from any of them. The king and his heir are at major loggerheads. There is factions at court working against each other. There may be a Northern Conspiracy working, there's the falling out between Aerys and Tywin. There is the Jaime Lannister incident. There is the KotLT and Aerys' response. And into this mass of tension, at the greatest tournament in living memory where everyone is coming together for the first time after winter, when everyone expects Rhaegar to merely honour his wife, as bland and unpolitical statement as anyone could wish for to end a divisive and eventful tourney, and he rides past her (holy shit, wtf, what is he doing, what does this mean!) and lays the garland in the lap of the Warden of the North's only daughter. No wonder the smiles died. Bradnon's anger could have many reasons, political or personal. Robert laughs because its a so very Robert act - feck the politics, give it to who you want to give it to and cock a snoot at all those plots and machinations. Rhaegar just believes that tKotLT deserves honouring and with no follow up and possibly even counter followup, everyone will see soon enough that its neither a plot nor an insult.

Or maybe not. Maybe they did think it was romantic. We can't tell.

I've underlined the actual facts. The rest is deduction, interpretation, opinion and speculation. I agree with a lot of it, mind you, but you can't claim that almost everyone distorts the facts and then do just that. We actually have very little facts. If you also take away unconfirmed elements (visions, or characters' dubious perspectives/opinions), it's ridiculous how little is left.

I'm not trying to be unpleasant, just to point out that we all interpret the facts some way or another to reconstruct a narrative.

For instance, that Lyanna was KotLT isn't even fact. The fact is that there was a mystery knight called KotLT, and that it was Lyanna is extremely likely. I believe it, and you believe it. But it isn't fact. At this point it's the logical conclusion based on what we know.

That Rhaegar found out is already a theory. It makes sense, yes. And yet the fact is that he just brought back a shield to Aerys. He might have heard stories and rumors, and/or have suspicions, but if it was that easy to find out, how come no one else did? Did he pay or kill some people to keep silent after talking with them? Maybe he talked with Lyanna, who admitted it to him, but we don't know that. Maybe Benjen or Brandon told him, he explained Aery's ire to them, and this explains why they would be so angry at Rhaegar honoring her with the garland as it would be risky? But now we're already entering crackpot...

I submit that the idea-chain that:

1. Rhaegar met Lyanna as KotLT, and was possibly quite attracted to her, but formed no romantic attachment during Harrenhal due to no.2

2. Rhaegar continued working on the PtwP and 3 heads of the dragon with Elia before and after Harrenhal as per Dany's vision

3. At Aegon's birth Rhaegar was still committed to Elia, the PtwP and the three heads plan

4. After Aegon's birth when the Maesters said Elia could no longer have children, Rhaegar began looking for alternative ways to get the third head of the dragon.

5. Needing another wife, the KotLT comes to mind (and she's Ice to his Fire as well, perhaps thats significant?)

6. The restoration of long unused Targaryen polygamy may also come to mind here

is the narrative that we actually have (I see a lot made of the idea that R+L=J = they fell in love at Harrenhal, but thats never been the general case in truth, just a sub-theory within the theory with some followers), which fits all the data we have and works coherently from every perspective.

While I could agree with 1-3, the leaps from 3 to 4, and then to 5 is huge. It's precisely to solve this problem that people so readily put the beginning of the love story at Harrenhal.

There's a very funny point here which comes to my mind. The leap from 3 to 4 is entirely based on the vision at the HotU. But in fact, Aemon only confirmed the first part of that vision. In the vision, Dany is unsure whether Aegon says "the dragon must have three heads" to Elia or to her. For all we know, this bit was only ever meant for Dany, and Aegon never acted on this belief.

Because if Aegon wanted to have three kids named after Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, his elder daughter should have been named Visenya, not Rhaenys. Funny detail, uh? Martin really loves to mess with us...

[corbon]

Well, I could agree with this but...

I've underlined the actual facts. The rest is deduction, interpretation, opinion and speculation. I agree with a lot of it, mind you, but you can't claim that almost everyone distorts the facts and then do just that. We actually have very little facts. If you also take away unconfirmed elements (visions, or characters' dubious perspectives/opinions), it's ridiculous how little is left.

I'm not trying to be unpleasant, just to point out that we all interpret the facts some way or another to reconstruct a narrative.

Ahh, but the difference here is that I'm not claiming this to be the (as in only) narrative, just that its entirely possible to have one that fits every known fact and doesn't have major issues - and provided an example. Your statement was that the narrative we have doesn't make sense.

My point is thats a problem with your narrative (so perhaps that narrative should be adjusted), not a problem with the 'facts'.

But the secondary point was that that can be hard to see because so many of the facts are almost always presented with their own narrative 'decided' already and thus needing to be incorporated into the larger narrative, instead of acknowledging that the mini-narrative attached to those facts is in fact a choice made by the reader, and not necessarily a correct one.

For instance, that Lyanna was KotLT isn't even fact. The fact is that there was a mystery knight called KotLT, and that it was Lyanna is extremely likely. I believe it, and you believe it. But it isn't fact. At this point it's the logical conclusion based on what we know.

That Rhaegar found out is already a theory. It makes sense, yes. And yet the fact is that he just brought back a shield to Aerys. He might have heard stories and rumors, and/or have suspicions, but if it was that easy to find out, how come no one else did? Did he pay or kill some people to keep silent after talking with them? Maybe he talked with Lyanna, who admitted it to him, but we don't know that. Maybe Benjen or Brandon told him, he explained Aery's ire to them, and this explains why they would be so angry at Rhaegar honoring her with the garland as it would be risky? But now we're already entering crackpot...

Well, I guess I should have made it explicit that all of the narrative I presented was just one option among many narratives, not a set of facts. I assumed that was sufficiently implied, but of course assumptions... My bad.

To answer some of your questions (narratively, again, not factually, exactly)...

Why did no one else find out? Because Rhaegar was the one tasked by the king to find out and Rhaegar was very intelligent and trained (or rather, astonished the Maesters there with his quick wits etc) at Oldtower. All he had to do was interview the three squires who's master had been publicly tasked to "teach their squires honour" and he'd be metaphorically led straight to Lyanna. But would anyone else do that? Would they think of looking of the KotLT that way? If they did, would they follow up on that (talk to the squires themselves, or even have the opportunity to do so) given Aerys had publicly tasked Rhaegar with this investigation? Would the squires have told anyone else if Rhaegar had told them not to? I don't know any of those answers for sure, but its certainly very easy to see why Rhaegar and Rhaegar alone could figure out that Lyanna was KotLT (assuming she was).

Pay or kill some people? Well, I'm not sure he would even need to, but just three squires, after a public (and no doubt private from their masters) humiliation they'd just had, to the prince of the realm on a mission from the king... I don't think it would be hard to make them reluctant to tell their story to other people, if there even were any other enquirers.

And yes, we could go further into crackpot speculating on things, but its simply not necessary. We know Brandon is a hotheaded fool who over reacts to things. We know Rhaegar beat him in the jousting, and it appears to be late in the tourney. We suspect possible GNCs and/or other politics going on. We really don't need extra speculation to find a reason for Brandon to be angry with Rhaegar when he crowned Lyanna, even if we don't have the 'true' answer yet. We do have a narrative that is sufficient given the data we have, and can be changed readily given new data.

While I could agree with 1-3, the leaps from 3 to 4, and then to 5 is huge. It's precisely to solve this problem that people so readily put the beginning of the love story at Harrenhal.

I don't think its much of a leap. During the vision, he's clearly still on the "Aegon=PtwP, +2 more heads" plan and that appears to be very soon after the birth. It would take a little longer for the maesters to confirm that Elia can't have more kids after Aegon, so logically this is before the plan-shattering news that Elia can't provide the third head. We know (more or less, "it seems I must be a warrior") prophecy is important enough to him to change his entire lifestyle based on it.

He is so close to fulfilling the part of the prophecy we have heard of, just needs one more child. And the next thing we know, a few months later he 'abducts' another woman and it appears they have another child, his third head, together.

After the Maesters news about Elia, Rhaegar has three possible options; i) abandon the prophecy entirely, ii) assume Aegon is not the PtwP despite the comet and find another woman to start again with an entirely new three heads, or find another woman to continue the three heads needing only the third. i) seems highly unlikely given his apparently lifelong commitment and life-changing commitment. ii) is possible but unnecessary and wastes his existing two kids. iii) is logical and relatively easy. And either ii) or iii) is heavily supported by him soon after 'abducting' Lyanna and apparently creating another child with her.

Its therefore very little leap to postulate that 4 follows 3, and given we know he did do something with Lyanna soon after, 5 is very little leap indeed from 4.

In contrast, the idea of the 'affair' beginning at Harrenhal is just poorly thought out from start to finish. There is no follow up evidence for a year. No gossip of an affair, no further actions by angry over-the-top wild wolf Brandon, no actual political or social fallout on anyone. Instead we seem to have a 9 month-ish further period with not much happening that ends with an apparently happy-family scene between Rhaegar and Elia. Then several more months before everything suddenly explodes with no warning.

Now that scenario, most of 12 months with zero on the R+L front, could be all wrong, created by an absence of information, but that doesn't add up to me. GRRM writes very true to people nearly always and I really can't see nothing at all leaking out from that 'empty time' if there was an ongoing affair or ongoing rumours and machinations based on the QoLaB crowning. It would all be to significant leading up the the 'abduction' and consequent rebellion not to have been mentioned somewhere.

Then you have Rhaegar's prophecy plan and happy families with Elia. Neither of which fit with him running a romantic engagement with Lyanna at this time. Especially not given his characterisation as "dutiful above all" - which is itself a further point against a romantic liason forming at Harrenhal - his duty then is to Elia and the prophecy.

The whole romantic liason at Harenhal just doesn't fit the data. It doesn't fit people's personal preferences, and can be useful in allegorical theories and similar, but the data always comes first to me, and it just doesn't fit.

If we get more information (data) in following books covering this 'blank period' then we ought to revise our narrative to fit the new data (which could be a radical revision), but at the moment, the narrative that fits the data we have says that there was no romantic liason with Lyanna at Harrenhal (or at least no acting on any romantic feelings) nor after until at least after Aegon was born.

There's a very funny point here which comes to my mind. The leap from 3 to 4 is entirely based on the vision at the HotU. But in fact, Aemon only confirmed the first part of that vision. In the vision, Dany is unsure whether Aegon says "the dragon must have three heads" to Elia or to her. For all we know, this bit was only ever meant for Dany, and Aegon never acted on this belief.

Because if Aegon wanted to have three kids named after Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, his elder daughter should have been named Visenya, not Rhaenys. Funny detail, uh? Martin really loves to mess with us...

Well, first, the vision is the data we have, given to us by GRRM. We have no actual solid reason to doubt it and it is at least partially confirmed. That means we should as a default, take it to be pretty much true, even if we must remain with an open mind that we could be being deceived here.

Second, it doesn't matter who Rhaegar is saying it to, only that he believed it.

Thirdly the naming thing is often thrown out there, but it doesn't make sense to me. There is no clear indication anywhere that the three heads of the dragon are and must be associated only with Aegon the Conqueror and his two sisters. In fact it doesn't really seem like they (AtC and sisters) have anything to do with the prophecy really. Nothing in their time seems particularly relevant to any world shaking prophecy (especially in light of LtLs recent work on the deep deep implications of GRRMs world's pre-history) - uniting most (not all) of Westeros is nice, but its not exactly critical in the sort of world-wide mythological terms that prophecy seems likely to be relevant to. Sure, Rhaegar choose Aegon, and previously chose Rhaenys, but there is no reason he had to be fixated with an exact recreation of those three, nor that he might have had his own reasons for changing the order (such as Rhaenys being the most loved, or some such, who knows). I don't see how something that is so uncertain can be counted as a strike against.

[Arrow of the Morning]

Valid points, but if Lyanna was the KotLT and her brothers discovered it, there would be a solid reason to ignore tradition and keep her where she couldn't do anything stupid until her wedding.

Harrenhal is just a possibility. For all we know they put her with the silent sisters for a few months... (that would make for a hilarious episode, har har).

Wherever she was, someone learned of it, obviously, and planned her abduction accordingly.

If I was Lord of Winterfell and discover that my daughter likes to ride in tourneys I would keep her in my castle where I could patrol her actions and cover up the things she do and in the North tourneys do not happens let her south of the Neck , where tourneys are held and I cannot control her.