Where are these awesome sand snakes in the books?

[Winter's Knight]

I am by no means supporting the 'Bland Snakes' as they have been termed for the show as I would have rather had the Greyjoy uncles anyway but I'm pretty sure in the show, at no point do they say they are going to kill Myrcella (correct me if I am wrong however), I think the plan was to crown her much like in the books except it just hasn't been revealed yet.

No, murdering Myrcella-preferably piece by piece -is exactly Ellaria and the Snakes' plan.

[Primalsplit]

Seriously that Sand fake kidnapping Myrcella should have just lopped an ear off of Myrcella. At least...

[Winter's Knight]

Seriously that Sand fake kidnapping Myrcella should have just lopped an ear off of Myrcella. At least...

Seriously.

SHE WAS HOLDING HER. Stab her in the throat with the dagger in your other hand.

[larastone]

the show should have cut dorne entirely and just had nymeria and tyene come to KL with myrcella and obara for whatever purpose she needs to

[Gogossos]

In the books, the Sand Snakes have potential. It's hinted that they are popular enough to stir up the populace, thus needing to be locked up. The older ones are known to have deadly skills, and it's possible that men would follow them into battle, Obara being the most likely leader for that. Tyene looks innocent and acts pious but poisons people--that has definite possibilities!

It's not what we've seen of them but what we haven't seen yet that tantalizes. If they can keep themselves in check and work with Uncle Doran, they can wreak some serious havoc. One has been dispatched to help hunt down Darkstar, two are on the way to King's Landing, one is going with Arianne to meet with the supposed Aegon Targaryen, and it's now an open secret in fandom that Sarella is at the Citadel and is an ace shot with that bow of hers.

They have been set up for possible greatness. They could also crash and burn. But whatever happens with them will definitely be entertaining...in the books, that is.

:bowdown:

Thank you.

No one ever says this, from both sides of the argument. Obviously the cartoonish tv Sand Snakes don't deserve any more mention but even from readers I have seen statements like "in the books they are just as flat" forgetting that we've only just been introduced to them. And GRRM has stated that they'll have plenty to do in King's Landing. I mean, Doran is sending his bastard niece to sit on the 7 Kingdom's Small Council on his behalf. How can that not be fun?

I do believe when they are fleshed out (as Julia Martell stated in her essay, they were locked up for a pretty good reason, so we never get to really see them) it's going to be a hoot. [i don't trust D&D's choices but whatever GRRM told them about the Sand Snakes and their destination in King's Landing, D&D's favourite place, it convinced them to at least try it out onscreen.] In the books though, by the end of ADWD they seem to have tempered their hot headedness, Doran seems to have won them and Arianne over. Like Doran said, he was the grass to Oberyn's viper and it seems the Sand Snakes will take that mantle in the next book. I, myself, can't wait to see, er, or read about, them in action.

I don't think having fleshed out characters is as big a priority as containing the story, now. Characters should not dictate plot, or the main purpose of a narrative.

And this is why you'll always find yourself in the rant and rave threads causing an argument. PS. I've read your justification for this statement and no, it still doesn't make sense to people like me.

[larastone]

You argue that the Sand Snakes should have been merged into one character, and I've seen a lot of others echoing this sentiment. But, again, it defies the purpose - and the appeal - of the Sand Snakes. D&D sold them as a trio, and that should indicate why they were included and Arianne wasn't. If having one fleshed out character was the priority, they would have kept Arianne. And before anyone says they kept the Sand Snakes because they're gonna be "so important" in TWoW - please, actually think about what you're writing. Darkstar has been cut in the show, so Obara's hunt is gone too; meanwhile, Tyene's mother is not a septa in the show (in fact, it's Ellaria), so she won't be infiltrating the Faith Militant/Sparrows. And, again, their purpose is that they're a team(*), in which case it makes no sense to imagine that they'll be sent on different missions in the show. The logical conclusion is that they probably have a role going forward into season 6, but that it will have little resemblance to their book roles.

I'm not sure if I agree with this, I don't think its necessary for Tyene's mother to be a septa in order for her to pretend to be a septa on the show. And just because they're shown as a team in season 5, doesn't mean that they will be in season 6.

[bobbybuilderton]

I'm not sure if I agree with this, I don't think its necessary for Tyene's mother to be a septa in order for her to pretend to be a septa on the show. And just because they're shown as a team in season 5, doesn't mean that they will be in season 6.

It's not necessary for her mother to be a septa, but it would certainly give some context for her being the one to infiltrate them. So, as is common in the show, things get to the same place but in a way that isn't as good. The Sand Snakes may not have been the most amazing characters in the books, but at least they were three distinct people with distinct appearances. In the show they seem to just be "angry war desiring women with different weapons." Only one of them wanted flat out war in the books, as I remember (Obara wants to attack oldtown)

[larastone]

It's not necessary for her mother to be a septa, but it would certainly give some context for her being the one to infiltrate them. So, as is common in the show, things get to the same place but in a way that isn't as good. The Sand Snakes may not have been the most amazing characters in the books, but at least they were three distinct people with distinct appearances. In the show they seem to just be "angry war desiring women with different weapons." Only one of them wanted flat out war in the books, as I remember (Obara wants to attack oldtown)

i agree, but i cant particularly say that i care lol. but i think making tyene to be the youngest and casting a bb faced actress was a conscious decision on the writers' part.

[Gogossos]

Why change Tyne's mother to Ellaria? I mean, really? That's the one that irks me the most. You've got these 8 daughters, who obviously are there to reflect Oberyn's character and story - he wandered a bit when he was young hence Obara, Nym, Tyne and Sarella then settled down hence Elia, Obella, Dorea and Loreza. So if Tyne's mother is Ellaria, that changes the "settling down with Ellaria" bit of Oberyn's story. Did he hit that, dump her and then come back, after fathering Sarella, grovelling that he's a changed man? It's a really tiny change with not much consequence beyond that but it really shows an arrogance or carelessness where none was needed.

[larastone]

Why change Tyne's mother to Ellaria? I mean, really? That's the one that irks me the most. You've got these 8 daughters, who obviously are there to reflect Oberyn's character and story - he wandered a bit when he was young hence Obara, Nym, Tyne and Sarella then settled down hence Elia, Obella, Dorea and Loreza. So if Tyne's mother is Ellaria, that changes the "settling down with Ellaria" bit of Oberyn's story. Did he hit that, dump her and then come back, after fathering Sarella, grovelling that he's a changed man? It's a really tiny change with not much consequence beyond that but it really shows an arrogance or carelessness where none was needed.

I think its just a part of them giving Indira Varma a bigger role

[Gogossos]

She doesn't have to have Tyne as her daughter in order to accomplish that.

[Tagganaro]

It's not necessary for her mother to be a septa, but it would certainly give some context for her being the one to infiltrate them. So, as is common in the show, things get to the same place but in a way that isn't as good. The Sand Snakes may not have been the most amazing characters in the books, but at least they were three distinct people with distinct appearances. In the show they seem to just be "angry war desiring women with different weapons." Only one of them wanted flat out war in the books, as I remember (Obara wants to attack oldtown)

Obara wants to attack Oldtown, Nym wants to assassinate Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and Tommen, and Tyene...god knows what she wants lol.

[PatrickStormborn]

How is my argument possibly a false representation of yours? You are suggesting that character is more important than plot in ASoIaF, or have I misinterpreted that?

It has everything to do with Myrcella - the princess quota has been reached, Arianne would just be one too many. The show isn't trying to expand into new characters and subplots like the books are.

I think I made myself perfectly clear: the strawman argument was you stating that merging Arianne with the Sand Snakes would draw criticism by turning her into a warrior. It's a strawman because I never once indicated that she would have to be a warrior in order to cover the role of the Sand Snakes.

It really really really doesn't have anything to do with Myrcella. It's because they're cutting Aegon, but they still wanted to keep Dorne because they liked it and they liked Oberyn. So they included the Sand Snakes. They could have included Arianne and had Dorne focus on her complicated relationship with Doran - but that doesn't mean they had to include her subplot.

And my argument is more nuanced than you're presenting it as. GRRM has consistently stated that the big theme of ASOIAF is "the human heart in conflict with itself". Yes, the plot is clearly important - but it's important because of the characters who drive it. That's why GRRM ended up changing his story so much from his first draft in 1991. That's why GRRM has actually said that some characters have took him in places he didn't plan to go (I think Catelyn was the example he mentioned).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Remember when Oberyn said she had a daughter called Elia? If the show named was probably because, as indicated by her name, Oberyn cares big for her, right? She's named after his beloved sister. Just like one of the other girls is named after Doran.

It's like Elaria sent them all to foster care so she can war and have revenge. "Go and cry your father somewhere else I cannot see you, you weak little vipers... I feed with the blood of children, not their tears!".

Strong woman my ass...

[bobbybuilderton]

Remember when Oberyn said she had a daughter called Elia? If the show named was probably because, as indicated by her name, Oberyn cares big for her, right? She's named after his beloved sister. Just like one of the other girls is named after Doran.

It's like Elaria sent them all to foster care so she can war and have revenge. "Go and cry your father somewhere else I cannot see you, you weak little vipers... I feed with the blood of children, not their tears!".

Strong woman my ass...

I AM OBARA SAND, DAUGHTER OF OBERYN MARTELL, WHEN I WAS A LITTLE GIRL I MADE MY CHOICE. WHO DO YOU FIGHT FOR?

[bobbybuilderton]

Obara wants to attack Oldtown, Nym wants to assassinate Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and Tommen, and Tyene...god knows what she wants lol.

Yeah, Nym wants to go after the specific people. This would possibly result in war, but it's not necessarily a desire for war. I remembered wrong, Tyene does want war but she wants to fight in a way that suits her personality more (using their homeland's terrain to their advantage, more sneaky/subtle warfare).

Prince Doran sighed. “Obara cries to me for war. Nym will be content with murder. And you?”

“War,” said Tyene, “though not my sister’s war. Dornishmen fight best at home, so I say let us hone our spears and wait. When the Lannisters and the Tyrells come down on us, we shall bleed them in the passes and bury them beneath the blowing sands, as we have a hundred times before.”

“If they should come down on us.”

“Oh, but they must, or see the realm riven once more, as it was before we wed the dragons. Father told me so. He said we had the Imp to thank, for sending us Princess Myrcella. She is so pretty, don’t you think? I wish that I had curls like hers. She was made to be a queen, just like her mother.” Dimples bloomed in Tyene’s cheeks. “I would be honored to arrange the wedding, and to see to the making of the crowns as well. Trystane and Myrcella are so innocent, I thought perhaps white gold... with emeralds, to match Myrcella’s eyes. Oh, diamonds and pearls would serve as well, so long as the children are wed and crowned. Then we need only hail Myrcella as the First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and lawful heir to the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, and wait for the lions to come.”

So even though Obara and Tyene have the same desire, once again, they are distinct in personality in a way the show has failed to portray so far.

[Tagganaro]

Yeah, Nym wants to go after the specific people. This would possibly result in war, but it's not necessarily a desire for war. I remembered wrong, Tyene does want war but she wants to fight in a way that suits her personality more (using their homeland's terrain to their advantage, more sneaky/subtle warfare).

So even though Obara and Tyene have the same desire, once again, they are distinct in personality in a way the show has failed to portray so far.

hmm, I had forgotten that, but it makes sense as she was closest to Arrianne and that ended up being Arriane's plan.

Dorne to me has just been one giant screwup by the show...From what I gather a lot of it is just a matter of logistics...the rushed nature of shooting their scenes, the new team and inexperienced director brought in to do it, etc. But even the departments that usually do well on GOT (i.e. casting and editing) have also been messes. At the very least they could have picked actors who looked more differently and spoke more differently to differentiate the Sand Snakes.

[Gogossos]

They look different enough, all they had to do was dress them differently, allow them to keep their natural accents and most importantly introduce them separately just like that AFFC chapter. It works better on a tv show as well, splice some other scenes in between the 3 scenes introducing them to Doran, in that first episode of the season. Then, like in the books, Ellaria can arrive in a later episode. The notion that Ellaria had to introduce the Sand Snakes is what made that scene so stilted. In this episode, instead of the awful fight sequence where none of their plans for Myrcella made sense, how about 3 separate scenes with Hotah and his trying to subdue them, which happened offcreen in the books? Their reactions could be used to further differentiate them.

I think the show runners have become lazy. I was watching a season 2 clip on Youtube featuring Aria and Tywin. Those scenes aren't in the books, that set up wasn't in the books but care was taken in creating them. You'll never hear me complaining about them. They stayed true to Tywin's characterisation, he was smart enough to know Arya was a highborn northerner pretending to be a peasant. Arya was also shown to be clever, fleet footed enough to stay ahead of Tywin's curiosity. She created an alias name-checking House Dustin in the process, they talked about Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys. He had a war council, which included some cousin who missed his wife in Lannisport. Even though it was a made up scene, everything was enriched with little nuggets from the books. Where are those writers?

[PatrickStormborn]

hmm, I had forgotten that, but it makes sense as she was closest to Arrianne and that ended up being Arriane's plan.

Dorne to me has just been one giant screwup by the show...From what I gather a lot of it is just a matter of logistics...the rushed nature of shooting their scenes, the new team and inexperienced director brought in to do it, etc. But even the departments that usually do well on GOT (i.e. casting and editing) have also been messes. At the very least they could have picked actors who looked more differently and spoke more differently to differentiate the Sand Snakes.

I think the poor quality of the fight scene is understandable considering how little time they had to film there... But that doesn't make it excusable - they should have filmed it somewhere else.

[Lovely Lyanna]

Well you can call the books filler or you can call it waffle or whatever else you can come up with. I like to call it what it actually is, one terrible case of writer's block.