Where are these awesome sand snakes in the books?

[ummester]

Jon Con, a discussion point isn't a narrative. A well asked question is not a story. A story resolves. Yes, a resolution can ask questions of it's audience and some resolutions are better that way - but at the stage it is currently in, ASoIaF is little more than a collection of character studies and a bunch of ideas - it is neither a complete fantasy universe or a complete narrative experience.

Getting someone to think, or asking a complex question is not proof of depth or complexity, either - it's only proof that you can ask deep questions, not arrive at deep conclusions. I do not believe that asking a reader a bunch of questions that are periphery to the story is good story telling, good story telling always requires resolution and questions that are relevant to the purpose of the story.

And AFFC and ADwD, rather than pushing everything towards a more complete picture, push it away. Perhaps Martin wants it to be a serial - but serials always outstay their welcomes as a story, they always jump their own sharks, it is inevitable.

As for his grey characters, I don't mind that at all. I enjoy grey characters, if they are actively doing something related to each other or an unfolding plot. In ADwD I found the characters became unlikable - but much worse, disconnected and boring. They became introspective whiners - they all but stopped being doers and they stopped interacting with people that drove them forward. Penny could have driven Tyrion forward, for instance - made his character deal with exactly how he felt about his dwarfism, not how others felt - but how he felt - instead, he avoided it, he couldn't even admit to himself that he wasn't sexually attracted to Penny because he has the same misgivings about her that the world has about him - and that kind of character advancement was sorely needed. Tyrion is still basically avoiding himself, which makes him a weak and despicable character, as most of the others in ADwD were. They aren't bad people, they are just fucked up people who can't get over themselves and the real world is full of them, they aren't inspiring, or worth telling a story about.

So my fear is that GRRM does not have a resolution to the questions he has asked and the ideas he has planted, that he has basically written beyond his means - and that the show will reflect this in its ending and the excellent story telling in seasons 1-4 will seem like a fluke, or joke, by the time we get to season 7 - because all the story GRRM ever really had to tell has already been told and his ideas were never anything more than what ifs.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jon Con, a discussion point isn't a narrative. A well asked question is not a story. A story resolves. Yes, a resolution can ask questions of it's audience and some resolutions are better that way - but at the stage it is currently in, ASoIaF is little more than a collection of character studies and a bunch of ideas - it is neither a complete fantasy universe or a complete narrative experience.

Getting someone to think, or asking a complex question is not proof of depth or complexity, either - it's only proof that you can ask deep questions, not arrive at deep conclusions. I do not believe that asking a reader questions is good story telling, good story telling always requires resolution.

And AFFC and ADwD, rather than pushing everything towards a more complete picture, push it away. Perhaps Martin wants it to be a serial - but serials always outstay their welcomes as a story, they always jump their own sharks, it is inevitable.

So my fear is that GRRM does not have a resolution to the questions he has asked and the ideas he has planted, that he has basically written beyond his means - and that the show will reflect this in its ending and the excellent story telling in seasons 1-4 will seem like a fluke, or joke, by the time we get to season 7 - because all the story GRRM ever really had to tell has already been told and his ideas were never anything more than what ifs.

But we're talking about a series of books. It has been never a resolution at the end of any of them:

The first book showed Dany with the baby dragons, the crowning of Robb, and let open the upcoming war of the 5K. The second book made Stannis lose, made the Lannisters win and Dany was meant to return to Pentos after meeting Barristan. Jon also left with Ygritte, IICR. The third book ended up with Oberyn being killed (hence, the implication of Dorne being mad), Dany deciding to stay in Meereen, Jon being elected, Stannis being just placed on the North, Tywin dead and Tyrion escaping away after he and Jaime alienated from each other.

The difference with Feast and Dance is that these books not only place characters and give them cliffhangers: they had a lot of things to do who were important to the general plot and not just for their own sake and development. They moved the plot. In Feast and Dance, we just met Arianne. We just met JonCon. We just met Doran. We just met Aegon. And the characters we already knew are parked having development but they aren't acting that much until the very end. They will act in the next books when things will start to be solved. We have already seen them doing it in the released chapters.

[ummester]

But we're talking about a series of books. It has been never a resolution at the end of any of them:

The first book showed Dany with the baby dragons, the crowning of Robb, and let open the upcoming war of the 5K. The second book made Stannis lose, made the Lannisters win and Dany was meant to return to Pentos after meeting Barristan. Jon also left with Ygritte, IICR. The third book ended up with Oberyn being killed (hence, the implication of Dorne being mad), Dany deciding to stay in Meereen, Jon being elected, Stannis being just placed on the North, Tywin dead and Tyrion escaping away after he and Jaime alienated from each other.

The difference with Feast and Dance is that these books not only place characters and give them cliffhangers: they had a lot of things to do who were important to the general plot and not just for their own sake and development. They moved the plot. In Feast and Dance, we just met Arianne. We just met JonCon. We just met Doran. We just met Aegon. And the characters we already knew are parked having development but they aren't acting that much until the very end. They will act in the next books when things will start to be solved. We have already seen them doing it in the released chapters.

Resolving the Feast and Dragon cliffhangers is not resolving the story, it is not resolving the world and the mythology. Those cliffhangers didn't even need to exist for the broader story to be told, unless, of course, it is more serialised than I was expecting.

If that is what they are - a series that is not destined for overall resolution, or a serial, than I should not have become involved with them. I thought GRRM was writing a saga, like LoTRs, a contained narrative that would have a conclusion that resolved the magical mystery of its world. It may be my mistake for expecting this and if so, then these are not the books for me and I should stick just to the show. I like things to end.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Resolving the Feast and Dragon cliffhangers is not resolving the story, it is not resolving the world and the mythology. Those cliffhangers didn't even need to exist for the broader story to be told, unless, of course, it is more serialised than I was expecting.

The book has been announced to be seven volumes and we were just in book number 5. What were you expecting? :dunno: Yes, I agree that many felt there were too many cliffhangers, but the stories were never going to be revealed or giving closure until the very end of either the books of the characters' participation in the story before they die or leave.

I still don't know what you are expecting considering that resolving cliffhangers and giving resolution is what every other story does, even if it only has one book.

[DemiNymph]

He should have just gone with his 5 year gap plan and not written AFFC and ADWD. As a fan these two books are nice to have, but after the series is done. That's why all these shit is happening.

[Connartist92]

Also Obara can't even beat a one handed Jaime.

That's just bad writing

[bobbybuilderton]

That's just bad writing

Lol who gives a fuck if something makes sense? It'll be so cool and entertaining, and gets the plot where we want it to be. Let's do it!

[ummester]

The book has been announced to be seven volumes and we were just in book number 5. What were you expecting? :dunno: Yes, I agree that many felt there were too many cliffhangers, but the stories were never going to be revealed or giving closure until the very end of either the books of the characters' participation in the story before they die or leave.

I still don't know what you are expecting considering that resolving cliffhangers and giving resolution is what every other story does, even if it only has one book.

The cliffhangers felt like a step backwards in narrative drive, less inclusive of the world and trying to make us care for characters that became pathetic.

See, I very much liked the Riverlands, war torn Westeros and the slow rise of the faith n the books - because this felt like it was still the story of the world, that we just experiencing through our POVs. Even Cersie's story was very much a story of the world, as she was in a seat of power for the world and her rise and fall was symbolic of the political world's final struggle before it passes away for a long dark. Jon's story also felt relevant, because he was losing an important seat of power in the world.

I don't think the story needed to expand into Mereneese politics, Dornish plots and so on. Not sure about Faceless men and Oldtown plots - I think Oldtown is relevant to the broader story of magic returning, which is, of course, very relevant to the world. But these stories could all be told a lot faster.

Say we miss reading what happens to Dany for a couple of books, who cares? She is one POV in many. We can miss Bran for a season in the shows and get over it. I don't think we really need to read or see Arya's training, Dany's political failings, Tyrion's ridicule that he learns nothing but sourness from and so on - it's too mundane for the story that preceded it.

[Gogossos]

Oh please spare me. There is nothing complex about AFFC and ADWD. They are just overblown. He either did not know where he wanted to go or he did not know how to get there, so he just procrastinated by creating a bunch of colorful characters. I agree that some of them are interesting on the surface, but none of them feel real. They do not have enough depth in order to feel whole. He wrote over 2000 words of what amounted to ..... well basically nothing. A somewhat interesting, colorful nothing, but still nothing that amounts to a hill of beans.

Just try writing one then and let's see how you fare. In fact, let another proven author try to write one and let's see how they do. Just go to amazon, there's plenty of imitators; after that google how many of them have fan forums such as this - as big and as old. Then we can talk about how overblown Martin's books are.

He should have just gone with his 5 year gap plan and not written AFFC and ADWD. As a fan these two books are nice to have, but after the series is done. That's why all these shit is happening.

He tried to go with the gap and decided he couldn't do it, the constant flashbacks lowered his standards. Gotta respect his choices, the guy's proven he knows his shit.

[Lovely Lyanna]

The fact everyone interprets ASOIAF in their own way is the proof the the books are deep and complex.

That is just a false premise if you are talking about the last two books. The reason everyone interprets AFFC and ADWD differently is because of the lack of real depth. They touch on everything and yet nothing at all. In other words they are everywhere and nowhere at the same time. That is why they are not complex. They are just a meandering hot mess of a narrative. That is not storytelling. That is the problem. Fans read all of those pages and cannot possibly believe that it means nothing, so they invent all sort of theories to explain all of these tidbits of information. What they are seeing is their own desperate need to make all of that work and all of these pages somehow important. When anyone says that AFFC and ADWD are complex, what they are doing is simply projecting their need for it to be complex. What those two books really show is someone with a massive case of writer's block hidden under thousands of pages of character creations and descriptions.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That is just a false premise if you are talking about the last two books. The reason everyone interprets AFFC and ADWD differently is because of the lack of real depth. They touch on everything and yet nothing at all.

A false premise according to who? To you? There are hundreds of topics in the General threads that prove otherwise.

Want some deep? Ok.

Jon and Dany are leading with the fact they thought leading would be easier than it ended up being. Jon is definitely very affected by how being the LC is alienating him from his friends and his own actions are causing him to have some doubts. And Dany is more than done with a decision she herself took as being a Queen is not what he thought it would be. Both plots are about what growing means, and Martin uses the metaphor of leading armies or ruling realms to make a point. Dany would be easily a girl who decided she regrets taking a job while Jon could be some guy who is considering dropping Highschool because he chose the wrong career.

After Tyrion killed his father and realised the truth of Tysha, he lost his identity. The only thing he could embrace was being a dwarf with some sense of entitlement due to Tywin's money. And once he was away from KL, Westeros and the Lannister family, he realised being a dwarf is something he couldn't have been proud of if he hadn't been born in a rich important family that helped him to shape himself as a smart educated man. This is a subject that is barely touched in media. Many portray people with disabilities being empowered by their own drive or the help of a family so they embrace what they are because they are loved. Try being blind or deaf and being poor and find out if it is easy to have some dignity when you have to beg on the streets because that's the only thing you can do.

What about the new characters? Ok.

Brienne presents a dichotomy that many modern women has to face at some point. "Is being a mother worthy to leave my career?" Or "is my career worthy of put motherhood aside?". I have wondered that myself many times and I've had to live with my consequences. Small as her plot can be, we are finally in her mind and we can feel her doubts when she says "if I had been betrothed, I wouldn't be in this situation".

Quentyn is the opposite of every manly trope. He's a Prince, he's a Dornish. He's meant to be an epitome of sexuality and selfconfidence. Yet, he is not. He's Doran's older child, he's meant to be a lot of things that he doesn't even know how to achieve. And Prince or not, he's often mocked because he can't help being who he is. And while Doran and probably also his mother believe he's fine the way he is, society believes otherwise. He was meant to woo and conquer the Princess' heart because he was Quentyn. Quentyn was actually very inadequate to do this.

We also have of course Arianne, who believe leading was as simple as making decisions that look strong and important. Leading is, many times, to share a meal with an enemy and make him believe he's your friend, even when you want to make him go through the most unimaginable pain. Being a leader is put other people's sake even if you don't have what you want.

And we also have JonCon, of course. JonCon who did everything right and still got exiled and his honour destroyed. That same Jon who is now considering becoming a monster to achieve his goals because being nice and honourable worked bad for him. And that one character who made us feel some sympathy after narrating his side of the story during the Rebellion is also making us want to see him defeat everybody and put Aegon on the throne, even when we know he's going to take very powerful cruel decisions because he's dying.

So, can we just simply drop this "book 4 and 5 have no depth/meaning/sense" thing because it's definitely not the story's fault that people either have different opinions or simply cannot read properly. It's also not our fault that D&D belong to the second group.

[Good Guy Garlan]

He tried to go with the gap and decided he couldn't do it, the constant flashbacks lowered his standards. Gotta respect his choices, the guy's proven he knows his shit.

The geographical split was a disaster, though. And his "reasoning" was even worse: "yeah, I'm gonna tell all the story for half the characters instead of telling half the story for all the characters."

Yeah, right, pull the other one, GRRM. What story is complete in AFfC/aDwD? He told half the story for half the characters anyway!

[ummester]

A false premise according to who? To you? There are hundreds of topics in the General threads that prove otherwise.

Want some deep? Ok.

Jon and Dany are leading with the fact they thought leading would be easier than it ended up being. Jon is definitely very affected by how being the LC is alienating him from his friends and his own actions are causing him to have some doubts. And Dany is more than done with a decision she herself took as being a Queen is not what he thought it would be. Both plots are about what growing means, and Martin uses the metaphor of leading armies or ruling realms to make a point. Dany would be easily a girl who decided she regrets taking a job while Jon could be some guy who is considering dropping Highschool because he chose the wrong career.

I agree - which ultimately means neither of them should be ruling/leading. They are too childish and they both lack pragmatism and compromise. And yet, for some reason, idiots like Selmy think they are worth following? Why? Just because of a name? Because of a magical dragon birth that no-one, not even the author, can explain. The may feel relevant and real - but they are not likable, or deserving of their stations, when you strip their names and plot armor away. They are ultimately weak characters, this is not to say they are not well characterized by GRRM - they are just not the kind of characters that really make for a compelling read and over-characterized for what they are. I got that Jon and Dany had some major flaws before ADwD - I got it from the show - I don't need another 1000 pages to clarify it for me, I've been waiting for Dany to feed people to her dragons since they first hatched - it was that obvious to me it was coming. I just need to know how it resolves - do they overcome their weakness or does it control them? Do they save the world or burn it? If they burn the world, can the story justify it? Does the world GRRM has created deserve burning? That is the only real question that remains, is Westeros salvageable or not? Everything else has become superfluous.

After Tyrion killed his father and realised the truth of Tysha, he lost his identity. The only thing he could embrace was being a dwarf with some sense of entitlement due to Tywin's money. And once he was away from KL, Westeros and the Lannister family, he realised being a dwarf is something he couldn't have been proud of if he hadn't been born in a rich important family that helped him to shape himself as a smart educated man. This is a subject that is barely touched in media. Many portray people with disabilities being empowered by their own drive or the help of a family so they embrace what they are because they are loved. Try being blind or deaf and being poor and find out if it is easy to have some dignity when you have to beg on the streets because that's the only thing you can do.

Really? If Tyrion is proud of being a dwarf, why doesn't he respond to Penny's sexual advances? Tyrion has not reconciled his dwarfism with himself yet - not fully - he just danced around the issue in ADwD (perhaps it should have been titled a dance with dwarfism).

What about the new characters? Ok.

Brienne presents a dichotomy that many modern women has to face at some point. "Is being a mother worthy to leave my career?" Or "is my career worthy of put motherhood aside?". I have wondered that myself many times and I've had to live with my consequences. Small as her plot can be, we are finally in her mind and we can feel her doubts when she says "if I had been betrothed, I wouldn't be in this situation".

Yes, but it is not as compelling as Tyrion killing his father, or Dany's husband dying, or Jon's lover dying, or Jamie loosing his hand, or Theon losing his cock, or Ned losing his head, or Robb losing his life - the characters in AFFC and ADWD became less compelling than they were in the first 3 stories. This shouldn't happen, a story shouldn't feel like it is subtracting from itself, or going backwards in quality, it should build on itself consistently, until the conclusion.

Quentyn is the opposite of every manly trope. He's a Prince, he's a Dornish. He's meant to be an epitome of sexuality and selfconfidence. Yet, he is not. He's Doran's older child, he's meant to be a lot of things that he doesn't even know how to achieve. And Prince or not, he's often mocked because he can't help being who he is. And while Doran and probably also his mother believe he's fine the way he is, society believes otherwise. He was meant to woo and conquer the Princess' heart because he was Quentyn. Quentyn was actually very inadequate to do this.

And he got burned to death. Like I've said before, a joke that took to long to tell. They say the difference between comedy and tragedy is timing, right? In the same way it's not funny to laugh at a kid who has just fallen over and scraped his knees (well, unless you consider time relative :D) it's also not funny to make a joke about it 2 years after it happened.

We also have of course Arianne, who believe leading was as simple as making decisions that look strong and important. Leading is, many times, to share a meal with an enemy and make him believe he's your friend, even when you want to make him go through the most unimaginable pain. Being a leader is put other people's sake even if you don't have what you want.

And we also have JonCon, of course. JonCon who did everything right and still got exiled and his honour destroyed. That same Jon who is now considering becoming a monster to achieve his goals because being nice and honourable worked bad for him. And that one character who made us feel some sympathy after narrating his side of the story during the Rebellion is also making us want to see him defeat everybody and put Aegon on the throne, even when we know he's going to take very powerful cruel decisions because he's dying.

So, can we just simply drop this "book 4 and 5 have no depth/meaning/sense" thing because it's definitely not the story's fault that people either have different opinions or simply cannot read properly. It's also not our fault that D&D belong to the second group.

You see, it's not that there is no depth there - it's just that the depth doesn't have the same narrative quality, tightness and urgency of the depth that preceded it. The narrative has started to meander and narratives shouldn't do that as they build to conclusions, they should be constantly tightening the screws, increasing the stakes, deepening the complications.

Why do the The Hobbit films suck compared to the LoTRs films? Jackson can still direct a scene and there are some good scenes in The Hobbit films - the dwarf song, Gollum, Smaug appearing - all masterfully done. But we shouldn't have to sit through 6 fucking hours of Peter Jackson playing with himself and his FX budget to see those scenes - overblown, time wasting crap that lacks narrative urgency and refinement - exactly like AFFC and ADwD.

And the sad thing - it appears D&D have noticed this but have not done a really good job of fixing it.

[PatrickStormborn]

If he never planned to write it, why did he? If he wanted to have a five year gap, why didn't he? If he can't make the story he is planning to tell work, there seem to be some pretty big problems either with the story he is trying to tell, or with how he is trying to tell it.

Also, the geographical divide is crap. Cersie chapters occur in both AFFC and ADwD and her geographical position in the universe is constant.

I'm not arguing his intention, I'm suggesting he chose the wrong format for his intention. With ASoIaF, GRRM may be trying to eat his cake and have it to, which is exactly why he may be finding it so difficult to write.

Snip

He tried to include the five year gap for over a year but it didn't work for multiple reasons. If you want to know more about that, use google.

The geographical divide is exactly the difference between AFfC and ADwD... But ADwD goes past where AFfC ends, obviously. This is why arguing with you is so futile - you don't actually know anything about GRRM's writing process and you're insisting that you do, whereas myself and others here have spent years following his progress and reading his interviews. Cersei has chapters in AFfC and ADwD because ADwD passes the point of Cersei's arrest. Sansa does not have chapters in ADwD because the chapter GRRM wrote for her was better suited at the beginning of the next novel, so he pushed it back. Does that make more sense now?

I won't address the bullshit about GRRM not caring about his characters, because again it just shows your ignorance. Of course GRRM doesn't know all the locations in his world - he only knows the ones that are relevant to the story. That is not a sign of his lack of interest - it's a sign of just how much work goes into these huge novels. As for TWOIAF - you do realise that GRRM didn't really write most of it, right? Mostly everything in there is from his notes, yes, but Elio and Linda (the site's admins) condensed it and worked it into the right format, basically. The problem is that he wrote too much for TWOIAF and it had to be seriously condensed - that, again, is not a sign of someone who isn't interested in the story.

I don't really care if you don't think seasons 1-4 need changing - that wasn't my point. What I was saying was that they had years to prepare for the dissonance between ASoS and AFfC/ADwD, and that should have made them consider bridging the two together more effectively.

Again, you don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to cutting characters. All the characters I listed were technically only important to the first part of the series - the War of Five Kings. If Arianne and Young Griff can be cut, then so can they. The fact that you've argued why those other characters were necessary shows that you should probably wait and see where GRRM takes Arianne et. al. before dismissing them as unnecessary.

And it's certainly moronic to think GRRM should just forget about his magnum opus to focus on a television show. The quality of the show has already diminished, and there's no way it could possibly live up to the standards of the books - they've cut too many characters that are essential to the story he wants to tell. Now you can argue about how great the show is all you want - I really, really don't care. What matters is what GRRM thinks of his own story, and I think it should be obvious to anyone that he would prefer to write the story the way HE wants to write it, rather than scrap it in an attempt to salvage the TV show. Not to mention that D&D obviously want to be as involved in the show's endgame as possible, considering that it's going to be the defining moment in their (otherwise poor) careers.

[Lovely Lyanna]

Just try writing one then and let's see how you fare. In fact, let another proven author try to write one and let's see how they do. Just go to amazon, there's plenty of imitators; after that google how many of them have fan forums such as this - as big and as old. Then we can talk about how overblown Martin's books are.

How did I become the benchmark? Whether or not I, another author, or fan fictionites can do it is not the issue. What you are saying is that because no one else could do it, it is fine for Martin to have done it, even if he did not do it well either.

You seem like an intelligent person, and I believe that you could easily invent a whole host of characters and describe their surroundings. Even without seeing a writing sample from you, I know you can do that. What I do not know is if you can weave those those characters into a story. That is where the problem of of AFFC and ADWD lies. Martin created everything for the characters and then did not weave them seamlessly into the story. Can he do that with a large cast of characters? Yes, it is possible for him to do that and do that well. How do I know that? Because he did it with books 1 - 3.

Honestly i did not mind the new characters. What I did mind is that they just did nothing or what they did do essentially amounted to nothing. I also minded that he ignored the interesting storylines he already had in order to bring these new characters to the table, when they had nothing to offer to the table.

He tried to go with the gap and decided he couldn't do it, the constant flashbacks lowered his standards. Gotta respect his choices, the guy's proven he knows his shit.

Right here, even you say that GRRM lowered his standards. Why then do you want to respect his choices if he has failed? At this point you have to say well, that was a bad decision and GRRM could have done a lot better. Just because his first choice failed does not make it acceptable to go with the second choice that also failed.

Personally I feel that he is capable of doing much, much better. I also think a really good editor could have headed off the train wreck that was AFFC by asking him some very simple questions. Where are you going and do you really feel that is the best route to take to your destination immediately come to mind.

I will concede that it is possible that when and if he completes the series, that it is possible that he did manage to pull all of it together, however I seriously doubt that he will ever be able to justify those particular 2000 pages.

[Lovely Lyanna]

This is why arguing with you is so futile - you don't actually know anything about GRRM's writing process and you're insisting that you do, whereas myself and others here have spent years following his progress and reading his interviews.

The writing process means absolutely nothing unless you are simply curious as to how he came up with his story. I do not care if he stands on his head all day long and dictates the story. That may be an interesting piece of information, but that does not justify his failures in AFFC and ADWD.

[Facebookless Man]

Right here, even you say that GRRM lowered his standards. Why then do you want to respect his choices if he has failed?

Bottom line, you want to pass judgement on 3000 pages of prose and you can't even parse a 100 word forum post.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I won't address the bullshit about GRRM not caring about his characters, because again it just shows your ignorance.

He has also being quoted very often lately about how protective he is of his ASOIAF characters, more than any other characters and how he won't let others to abuse them just for the sake of it. It's in his not-a-blog. That's very telling about how he probably feels about the show right now, despite he can't tell anything negative due to contracts and courtesies. There is no way he's dropping the books, specially after this season.

Honestly i did not mind the new characters. What I did mind is that they just did nothing or what they did do essentially amounted to nothing. I also minded that he ignored the interesting storylines he already had in order to bring these new characters to the table, when they had nothing to offer to the table.

He didn't ignore the interesting storylines. Do you even know how book 3 ended? Mostly of the important players died. That not only left characters without their guidance or help, but it changed every other political situation in Westeros. Just Tywin's death weakened the Lannister regime. That's why Dorne appeared on the scene, because that's why they were waiting for, that he somehow could go away to make their move. That's a CONTINUATION of the storyline, as the storyline changed completely. Feast deals with that, that's why is called "A Feast for Crows". It's not just that we see what happened to the smallfolk, we saw what happened after major players just died: the realm wants to feed on what they left.

Also, it's not Martin's fault that you don't mind the new characters. Many people definitely do mind about them. The difference is that we're not meant to consider certain characters as important, like the Sand Snakes. People like them but no one would ever say they fail as being important because they are not. The show has raised them to main characters status and they are highly unpopular because they are a joke and a cliché. The original Sand Snakes have some tropes on them but they are definitely more fleshed out than their tv counterpart. Also, it's not the author's intentions that his readership cheers for them. Arianne is the main character from Dorne and people definitely care: she and her actions do play an important part of the general plot as Myrcella being hurt has caused the friction with the IT that Doran wanted to avoid all these years.

The writing process means absolutely nothing unless you are simply curious as to how he came up with his story. I do not care if he stands on his head all day long and dictates the story. That may be an interesting piece of information, but that does not justify his failures in AFFC and ADWD.

No. I don't know if you ever went to school or college but when books are analysed, the first part of such analysis works around the author, his life and his intentions. It's called the context (in my case, Author's Life and Social-Historical Context). It's important to know, for a better understanding of the work, what was in the author's mind when he wrote it, what he deal with, which important historical events influenced him. And of course, what motivated such author to write. For example, HP definitely has a completely different meaning when you find out Jo Rowling wrote them after her mother died and she was suffering from depression. That's what makes you realise you're not just reading a book about a boy wizard defeating an evil lord.

In the case of Martin, he's not trying to get ride of his demons (that we know about) but he started the books as a personal critic of how tv shows limit adaptations due to budgets and technical problems, something that has now turned out ironic. We also know that many of his decisions are based on how he perceives that Tolkien, although a fabulous writer, never dealt with the real problems that leaders have to deal with after they are crowned, like taxes or certain policies. That's what bases the premises of Dany's and Jon's arc in Dance. People might not like that, fine. But maybe if they have know why he wrote them, then they wouldn't go around saying "puaaj... these books are boring. I dunno why is he boring me". That's what the books are boring you. And maybe Dance and Feast are not, at the end, the best books for them. The section of Meaningless Violence and Gratuitous Explosions is not that far from the Fantasy section.

[Gogossos]

Honestly i did not mind the new characters. What I did mind is that they just did nothing or what they did do essentially amounted to nothing. I also minded that he ignored the interesting storylines he already had in order to bring these new characters to the table, when they had nothing to offer to the table.

That right there is the crux of the matter. You think Sam going to Oldtown and meeting Sallera's group of friends (who've been infiltrated by Jaqen, a Faceless man from Braavos) and telling Marwin about the Others, who immediately jumps on a ship heading to Dany, amounts to nothing. You think Brienne, Jamie and Lady Stoneheart converging on one point is meaningless. You think that Lady Dustin, Wyman Manderly and those northern hill tribes don't really care about Starks and that saying "the north remembers" is the latest fashionable fad. You might also think that Victarion, having failed at the kingsmoot and being sent to Dany by Euron has meant that he's been so motivated to outdo his brother that he captured every boat is his way and bringing them to Dany amounts to nothing. How about the Sand Snakes, the subject of this thread? Well, they're only a part of Doran's plan (the rest which has been nixed by the show), which involves either Dany via Quentyn or Aegon via Arianne and the Snakes in KL at the places that seem to be wielding power, the small council and the faith militant. But I suppose, like everything else in both books, it amounts to nothing.

Notice I didn't mention any of the major characters. These are just a few of the examples of how much an impact side characters can make, even when a major POV is not present. So as an author, how else to tell that story? The interesting stories you talk about weren't totally ignored, the later part of ADWD has unified everything and things are starting to happen: two major battles coming up, Bran is beginning to make significant revelations, Dany has made a decision with far reaching consequences, The NW is either going to implode or buckle up and KL's is definitely going to implode with Kevan's death and the Martell/Tyrell antagonism. Aegon has landed and winter is coming. None of that would happen (logically) without the set up from AFFC and ADWD.

Bottom line, you want to pass judgement on 3000 pages of prose and you can't even parse a 100 word forum post.

:agree:

Totally missed the gist of what I was saying.

[Lovely Lyanna]

As I asked previously, how did I become the benchmark? Whether or not I can do something is not the issue.

For those of you who really want to know. Yes, I did go to college. I have both a masters degree and a bachelors degree with two minors. I also read between 75 and 100 books a year. Does that make me particularly brilliant or any kind of expert? No, it does not. I do not insult any of you because I do not believe that furthers my view on this particular subject. I also believe that you hurling insults at me does not further your views and ideas either.

IMO, the process of how Mr. Martin writes does not ultimately justify the results of that writing. It may very well explain how the book came to be, but just because you find the processing interesting does not mean that the book was actually good. In this particular case, I believe the process failed.