Debating Sansa

[The Eunuch]

Well, tell me something. Let's say one forgets about the rape scene. Are you still, as any critic of the show, doesn't find it just badly plotted that LF would abandon his greatest prize alone? What is stopping Sansa from betraying him, Ramsay from killing her?

Thank you so much for coming back to real questions and discussions :)

Here are my answers :

- Why would Sansa betray him? She could have done it in front of the Vale lords last season and he would be in prison now. She helped him and lied for him. She feels safe with LF, as strange as it can seem. He killed Joffrey, he saved her from Kings Landing, and contrary to what some people think, she has no idea that he betrayed Ned or that he framed her for Joff's murder. She has no family left. She only has... Littlefinger, a strange man in her eyes, but he's powerful, he says (I think he lies but that's not the debate here) he loved her mother, and he says he loves her., and that he'll give her Winterfell. She has no reason to betray him.

- Why would Ramsay kill her? It makes no sense. The Boltons need the Vale army (in fact, everybody needs the Vale army, it's the last unharmed army with Dorne, thanks to LF's plot with Lysa), they need this alliance with Littlefinger.

- Why would he abandon his greatest prize alone? Because it's his asset, he wants to use her where he has the most to win. In the books he wants to marry her to some heir in the Vale (to win the Vale support), it's exactly the same in the show but in the North.

[Khal Boner]

But...we've been talking about GoT

Are you often in the habit of frequenting forums dedicated to things you think are crap?

[Khal Boner]

Thank you so much for coming back to real questions and discussions :)

Here are my answers :

- Why would Sansa betray him? She could have done it in front of the Vale lords last season and he would be in prison now. She helped him and lied for him. She feels safe with LF, as strange as it can seem. He killed Joffrey, he saved her from Kings Landing, and contrary to what some people think, she has no idea that he betrayed Ned or that he framed her for Joff's murder. She has no family left. She only has... Littlefinger, a strange man in her eyes, but he's powerful, he says (I think he lies but that's not the debate here) he loved her mother, and he says he loves her., and that he'll give her Winterfell. She has no reason to betray him.

- Why would Ramsay kill her? It makes no sense. The Boltons need the Vale army (in fact, everybody needs the Vale army, it's the last unharmed army with Dorne, thanks to LF's plot with Lysa), they need this alliance with Littlefinger.

- Why would he abandon his greatest prize alone? Because it's his asset, he wants to use her where he has the most to win. In the books he wants to marry her to some heir in the Vale (to win the Vale support), it's exactly the same in the show but in the North.

Too sensible. It HAS to be because D&D just love writing a good raping scene. It's really quite amazing that they've left the Ironborn out of the season.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Are you often in the habit of frequenting forums dedicated to things you think are crap?

Yep

[OldGimletEye]

Are you often in the habit of frequenting forums dedicated to things you think are crap?

Are you in the habit of coming to threads with names like "Debating...." and then are surprised when people are in fact debating?

[The Eunuch]

Sorry. I didn't mean to offend you and your fifteen years. it's just that empathy goes a long way in life. Maybe you'll learn that, when you pass adolescence.

You mean selective empathy. Like when you watch without complaining children being pushed out of a window or men getting castrated or burned alive, while you have "empathy" for victim of rape?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

When you start letting the line between reality and fiction blur you end up destroying creativity. You'd know this if you had once ounce of creativity in your body. How rape victims feel is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It's the ultimate strawman. It's a very short step to take from there to censorship.

I'm just saying, before you discard a real person's feelings, that they do matter. Just that. Since you can't seem to get that, that's your issue, not mine. I won't continue this discussion. It's got nothing to do with censorship if it had been done right, as in, if the plot had worked. But it did not.

[The Eunuch]

It HAS to be because D&D just love writing a good raping scene. It's really quite amazing that they've left the Ironborn out of the season.

This, and Tyrion raping the whore in Volantis, or Marillion nearly raping Sansa in the Vale. If HBO loves rape so much, why did they miss thiss? :rolleyes:

[Alayne's Shadow.]

You mean selective empathy. Like when you watch without complaining children being pushed out of a window or men getting castrated or burned alive, while you have "empathy" for victim of rape?

Bran's storyline was done right. Theon's storyline (In the books) was done right. Jeyne's storyline was done right.

See the pattern?

Edit: And clearly you know me so well as to know how much I complained about the scenes in season 4 in Craster's Keep. I'm glad you know me that well.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Idk, I won't anymore. I guess it was because I listened to that recording from angryGOTfan and like...gods. It's so powerful, and it just makes me so disgusted that there are people who literally don't even try to understand. I want to force every single GoT viewer to listen to that. It's been argued in this thread that "Sansa isn't a real person so her abuse isn't real," but also that our "critique of the show is abusive to D&D," so like, listening to the actual individuals who are hurt by this? It makes me sick.

Yes that was really powerful and I'm so glad she shared her experience.

I know you're joking, but that's exactly the problem with you guys. Since you're focused on the differences between the books and the show, you can't see it as fiction anymore. It was the same when Barristan died : viewers reacted like "Damn sons of the Harpy!", book purists reacted like "Damn D&D!!!". And now with Sansa it's the same : viewers reacted like "Littlefinger and Ramsay, you bastards!", you book purists reacted like "D&D, why?? They must like rape, it's horrible!!".

I just feel sad for you, because you can't appreciate a great tv show because of that.

But is it ok if someone wants to praise D&D? I loved the Stannis and Shireen scene, who gets the credit?

[The Eunuch]

I'm just saying, before you discard a real person's feelings, that they do matter. Just that. Since you can't seem to get that, that's your issue, not mine. I won't continue this discussion. It's got nothing to do with censorship if it had been done right, as in, if the plot had worked. But it did not.

Oh stop with that "feelings" stuff. We all have feelings and empathy for what happens on screen, but in the same time it's fiction. And some people seem to have selective empathy : rape is bad and can't be adressed on TV, but murders and castrations are okay... :rolleyes:

[Khal Boner]

I'm just saying, before you discard a real person's feelings, that they do matter. Just that. Since you can't seem to get that, that's your issue, not mine. I won't continue this discussion. It's got nothing to do with censorship if it had been done right, as in, if the plot had worked. But it did not.

They really don't matter. Nor should they wether you are writing a novel or making a tv show. Rape happens. Life does not follow art. If the scene brought up painful memories then talk about it with your friends, don't attack the show.

[The Eunuch]

Bran's storyline was done right. Theon's storyline (In the books) was done right. Jeyne's storyline was done right.

See the pattern?

No, there's no pattern. Bran is still a cripple in the middle of nowhere, Theon will probably burned (or die anyways) and Jeyne was forced to be a prostitute for months (years?) and then was nearly sold to a sadistic (and now she's in the middle of Winter and war).

There's no pattern at all with any character. Bad things happen to them... and then bad things again.

Edit: And clearly you know me so well as to know how much I complained about the scenes in season 4 in Craster's Keep. I'm glad you know me that well.

Craster's keep, the rape scene, I guess? But when Mance was burned alive (or when Dany burned that guy), I'm sure you never complainted about that being horrible? :rolleyes:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Look. If people like that one scene or thought it wasn't rape or it was a natural progression, fine. Let's roll with it. Let's put aside THAT scene for a moment.

The show is not great even if we don't consider that scene.

I like Ryan Murphy. He's cool. He's what was correctly described as "The King of great ideas but terrible execution". And that's because he starts his shows very good and, in the middle of the way, he retcons, forgets or changes characters and he gets very very trashed for it. I like him but I can't deny it. Look at the latest seasons of American Horror Story. He loses direction. Every other critic notices it. A few years ago, AVclub dropped reviewing Glee because the inconsistencies were too much.

Game of Thrones does the same but he doesn't have the press against them like Murphy and his shows do. For whatever reason, doesn't matter. The show kept receiving praise for being innovative and inclusive, even though mostly of its narrative was contradictory, dull and they made a gay character target of boyish jokes. Because many posters here have criticised the show with the show narrative in mind only and many of the decisions make little sense. TV press doesn't mind, though.

The show WAS good. There is no denying of that. Despite the silly changes, the first three seasons were cool. They kinda did it right. It was watchable. Now, it looks like t he show wants to live up to the expectations they created themselves: no one is safe. People think GoT is good tv because "omg, anyone can be killed at any moment!". You know who does that? Shonda Rhimes. Her characters can't get development at least something over dramatic happens to them. That's not creating a dramatic narrative, that's being simplistic. And yes, people watch her shows, because "omg, I can't believe what I saw!". The show has been reduced to a semi-soap opera, but with tits, blood and violence to include a bigger target.

So, yes. Defend the scene. Call it narratively necessary if you want. I can have a character eat rotten food one chapter and have him have diarrea the next episode. That would also be narratively accurate, right? But that doesn't make good tv or good narrative or good anything.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

They really don't matter. Nor should they wether you are writing a novel or making a tv show. Rape happens. Life does not follow art. If the scene brought up painful memories then talk about it with your friends, don't attack the show.

That's just wrong. People's opinions do matter when writing a novel or making a Tv show. You want to sell your product, right?

As in regards to myself, I don't think one needs to be reminded of painful memories to hate the scene. I've never suffered any type of violence, and I still thought the scene to be emotionally manipulative, and the reason justified by the writers themselves "We had to put a character the audience cared about" manipulative.

[The Eunuch]

The show has been reduced to a semi-soap opera, but with tits, blood and violence to include a bigger target.

You must be right, the book never had any tits, blood and violence. Shame on you D&D!

[Khal Boner]

That's just wrong. People's opinions do matter when writing a novel or making a Tv show. You want to sell your product, right?

You think GoT is struggling to sell it's product? The thoughts of real victims of rape or violence in the real world are totally irrelevant. In fact if you allow that thought process to creep into your work you would soon start self censoring and destroy your own creation through timidity and fear of outcry.

[Elaena Targaryen]

When you start letting the line between reality and fiction blur you end up destroying creativity. You'd know this if you had once ounce of creativity in your body. How rape victims feel is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It's the ultimate strawman. It's a very short step to take from there to censorship.

Not true, depiction and critique always matters. Women, poc and lgbtqia have always had to fight negative depictions. Depiction matters with children. Issues that don't effect you personally are not automatically irrelevant, strawman nor censorship.

Ftr the Sansa scene I'm holding judgment on until I see it played out just as I did with Tommen.

[Khal Boner]

Not true, depiction and critique always matters. Women, poc and lgbtqia have always had to fight negative depictions. Depiction matters with children. Issues that don't effect you personally are not automatically irrelevant, strawman nor censorship.

If, as a writer, you start to worry about all the possible people you could offend with a controversial scene or chapter, then you would quickly lose your balls as an artist and produce sanitised crap. As long as you are happy that the scene or character works within the rules of the story and is credible, then you write what you feel is right.

[Elaena Targaryen]

You think GoT is struggling to sell it's product? The thoughts of real victims of rape or violence in the real world are totally irrelevant. In fact if you allow that thought process to creep into your work you would soon start self censoring and destroy your own creation through timidity and fear of outcry.

Well then why do they study fighting techniques if realism is not important? Who cares if the weapons and armor are used correctly, who cares if the stunts look good, who cares if injuries are believable? It's the same concept applied.