Debating Sansa

[The Eunuch]

Yes exactly, the Sansa marriage strategy is well known and highly effective. It's the reason for Napoleon's successful 1805 campaign. He married Sansa off to the Haspburgs.

No actually, cooking lemon cakes with Sweet Robin during a few years is more effective to win a battle ;)

[Good Guy Garlan]

How does she do that when Manderly isn't even in the show. Littlefinger is calling the shots, not Sansa.

And here I thought it was Sansa's choice, according to Cogman.

[Good Guy Garlan]

No actually, cooking lemon cakes with Sweet Robin during a few years is more effective to win a battle ;)

The funny thing is that it really is more effective to win a battle. SweetRobin commands thousands of soldiers, after all, soldiers who could've taken the North for Sansa.

[The Eunuch]

For the love of God this isn't about sensitive people or "worse stuff is out there." This is about the ABHORRENT lack of respect D&D have given this fucking issue. And if you can't understand that there are differences in depictions of rape, I don't know what to tell you.

No actually, it's about the hypocrisy and the selective indignation of some people here. Drogo raping Dany? Ok. Throwing a boy by the window? "Ok". Burning a man alive? "Ok". Tyrion raping a whore in Volantis? O"k". Ramsay giving a bad wedding night to Sansa? "It's not in the books, so it's terrrrrrrrrrrrrrible! Rape is bad!".

[David Selig]

How does she do that when Manderly isn't even in the show. Littlefinger is calling the shots, not Sansa.

Uh, there are other powerful nobles in the North and pretty much all of them love the Starks and loathes the Bolton and want vengeance against them.

LF;s plan is mind-bogglingly stupid and Sansa agreeing with it when he gave her a choice was even more stupid. But that's how D&D roll. Almost everyone in the show has been a moron this season.

[Khal Boner]

No actually, it's about the hypocrisy and the selective indignation of some people here. Drogo raping Dany? Ok. Throwing a boy by the window? "Ok". Burning a man alive? "Ok". Tyrion raping a whore in Volantis? O"k". Ramsay giving a bad wedding night to Sansa? "It's not in the books, so it's terrrrrrrrrrrrrrible! Rape is bad!".

I won't give book spoilers but read GRRM's account of the Ironborn taking the Shield Islands and what happens to one Lord and his daughters.

[The Eunuch]

The funny thing is that it really is more effective to win a battle. SweetRobin commands thousands of soldiers, after all, soldiers who could've taken the North for Sansa.

Yeah, and that would make better television for sure! "Sansa's cooking recipes" would be the favorite part of many viewers, no doubt about that. With Brienne's traveling tips "Woman vs wild", of course.

[Chebyshov]

No actually, it's about the hypocrisy and the selective indignation of some people here. Drogo raping Dany? Ok. Throwing a boy by the window? "Ok". Burning a man alive? "Ok". Tyrion raping a whore in Volantis? O"k". Ramsay giving a bad wedding night to Sansa? "It's not in the books, so it's terrrrrrrrrrrrrrible! Rape is bad!".

You literally have no idea what anyone is arguing at all. This isn't about "rape is bad." This is about how the subject is handled. What D&D did was exploitative and offensive. If you're curious to know why, I'd direct you to the last 20 pages of debate that you clearly haven't read, though I think the one and only thing you should read is the angryGOTfan link. Stop trying to make this out into some hypocritical argument and stop trying to talk over everyone with your moral absolution of "all rapes should be treated equal regardless of their context."

Context fucking matters.

[Khal Boner]

Uh, there are other powerful nobles in the North and pretty much all of them love the Starks and loathes the Bolton and want vengeance against them.

Not in the show there isn't. They were wiped out in the South. What you suggest requires her having a different relationship with LF, escaping his clutches, making her way North and somehow rallying an army to herself. In 2 seasons and 4 episodes. Merging characters and tweaking their stories makes total sense at this stage.

[LongRider]

He's still producer and he supports the show.

Only for shock value? And how do you know that? It's exactly the same arc that happens in the books with Jeyne Poole! Except that it's less violent in the show : don't you remember the dogs?? Are the books more pleaseant? Is Ramsay a sweet guy in the books?

~~snip~~~

So, according to you, Sansa's new arc is the same as Jeyne's in the book?

Lets contrast and compare:

Jeyne was given to LF after the fight that Cersei ordered on the Ned Stark and his people because Cersei thought the daughter of a WF steward has no value and she wanted her gone. LF happily takes her so that he can put a 13 year old to work in a brothel.

Sansa however, is protected from harm during the fighting and after, as she is person of noble birth and has value not only as a political prisoner, but as hedge to keep Jamie alive.

***so far, not the same***

Sansa was kidnapped by LF under false pretenses given to her by his hired man Ser Dontos. Plus, he made sure he had her framed for regicide first so that she wouldn't be able to leave him.

Jeyne just disappears and we don't know what happens to her other than she's in a LF brothel somewhere.

*****still not the same

Jeyne ends up in WF as 'Arya Stark' because LF sold her the Bolton's so they could have Ramsay marry Arya Stark of Winterfell so they could have a claim on WF. Keep in mind, LF has sold her into sexual slavery.

Show!Sansa is taken to WF under false pretenses and is later told they are traveling there so she can marry Ramsay Bolton. Sansa gives a tepid agreement to this plan.

**** So, unlike Jeyne, Sansa hasn't been sold into sexual slavery. LF has told her that by marrying into the Bolton's, she can 'avenge' her family. LF has tricked Sansa because she thought at first it was LF who was to marry. So once again, LF is not honest with her.

Sansa has given consent to marry Ramsay. Jeyne did not give consent to marry Ramsay, she has no say at all what happens to her.

****not the same story, at all!

Ramsay humiliates Jeyne and forces Reek to be an accomplice to rape on their wedding night. Ramsay humiliates Sansa and forces Reek to watch Ramsay rape Sansa on their wedding night.

*** Similar stories now. Sansa's new arc had to take so many ludicrous convolutions but we finally got there. She's raped now, just like Jeyne!

Because murdering her brother and mother weren't enough for her to 'avenge them' (with what? her fugly necklace?) D&D needed a good old fashioned marital rape to 'empower' her, just like Jeyne was empowered so she'll want to have her vengeance. Oppsie, Jeyne isn't empowered but destroyed and her family hasn't been avenged either.

****not the same

So sorry, Jeyne's story and Sansa's story are not the same. At all.

[eesiteJeff]

I'd have thought that the very first book and season of this show would have disabused fans of the notion that the purpose of this series was to introduce a bunch of characters, give them interesting storylines, and watch them grow as individuals in wonderful, fairly predictable "character arcs".

But that's Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter stuff. This series takes those normal tropes and tosses them out the window. In this series, the things you believe should and ought to happen, to make some larger point about love, maturation, or whatever, simply don't. A character you really, really like, and for whom you may envision a particular, wonderful future, may be murdered or otherwise suffer a major derailment of the journey you thought and hoped that character would take.

Fans of Ned were rather bitterly disappointed when he was killed. And when there was a great "character arc" set up for the Young Wolf, GRRM had him murdered in one of the most emotionally draining scenes in the books or show. Along with his mother. Plenty of people were disappointed/angry at that because those characters did not follow the arcs that those fans envisioned.

Why in the world are either D&D or GRRM bound to follow the arc for Sansa that some fans prefer? Because those fans think that's what is "supposed" to happen to make some larger sociological point? Because those fans will be unfairly upset if the story deviates from their wishes, and the author/writers should be more sensitive to their feelings? That isn't this series, and it never has been. Complaining about the disruption of Sansa's supposed "character arc" reduces the series to one of sad predictability. For all any of us know, GRRM's ultimate plan for Sansa may be for her to figure out that LF was the one behind most of this, stab him, and then take both of them right through the Moon Door. Her "character arc" reduced to a red smear on the rocks below. And if he did do it, there wouldn't be anything in that inconsistent with the kind of sucker punches he's thrown at fans and fantasy tropes throughout this series. Because just when you think you have it all figured out, here comes the proverbial curveball.

tl;dr There is no requirement that anyone follow the character arc for Sansa to the conclusion particular fans of that character prefer.

[David Selig]

Not in the show there isn't. They were wiped out in the South.

All of them, heirs included? I must have missed that.

What you suggest requires her having a different relationship with LF, escaping his clutches, making her way North and somehow rallying an army to herself.

No, I am suggesting LF and her not act like absolute morons, When LF suggests his braindead "plan", Sansa should have told him "This is idiotic. Why don't we rally the North behind me. Or if you want me to help Stannis' claim, why the hell don't we go to him directly? Are you on drugs?"

[Khal Boner]

All of them, heirs included? I must have missed that.

No, I am suggesting LF and her not act like absolute morons, When LF suggests his braindead "plan", Sansa should have told him "This is idiotic. Why don't we rally the North behind me. Or if you want me to help Stannis' claim, why the hell don't we go to him directly? Are you on drugs?"

I must have missed this great northern Lord that can ride in and take Winterfell. No such person exists in the show. They would have to create a new character. If LF tries to rally the North he has to fight The Boltons, Stannis and the Lannisters. He was the man that betrayed Ned Stark in KL. I couldn't see the North following him. I could also see Stannis burning him. He'll wait for his enemies to destroy themselves and have his niece as Warden of the North and step son as Warden of the East.

[OldGimletEye]

No actually, cooking lemon cakes with Sweet Robin during a few years is more effective to win a battle ;)

Well, I'm not so sure about that. Marrying off Sansa has proven to be an effective tactic. I'm pretty sure Cornelius Scipio married off Sansa to the Barca family, leading to his victory at Zama and paying back Hannibal when he married off Sansa to the Scipios which lead to his victory at Cannae. Later, Caesar married off Sansa to Pompey, which lead to Pompey's defeat at Pharsulus. And then, Suetonius Paulinus married Sansa off to Boudica, leading to her defeat at Watling Street.

Also lots of people think Eric von Manstein's plan yellow was about a rapid and bold armored thrust through the Ardenne, but in reality his plan was to marry off Sansa to the French, which worked with devastating effect. At Gazala, Rommel married off Sansa to Claude Auchinleck, resulting in the capture of Tobruk. However, the Allies would wise up and play the Sansa marriage game too. Field Marshal Montgomery, married off Sansa to the Rommels, causing Rommel's defeat at El Alamein. And then the Russians later married off Sansa to Field Marshal von Paulus, causing him to surrender Stalingrad.

In Korea,UN forces married Sansa off to the North Koreans, which lead to the North Korean's defeat at Inchon. However, North Korea and their allies, turned the tables by marrying off Sansa to the Almond family, which would have led to the utter destruction of the 10th Corps if Sansa had been feeling better.

So, I think clearly, LF was making a solid decision here to marry off Sansa to the Boltons. Makes total sense.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Yeah, and that would make better television for sure! "Sansa's cooking recipes" would be the favorite part of many viewers, no doubt about that. With Brienne's traveling tips "Woman vs wild", of course.

I'd take Sansa making lemoncakes over Sansa getting raped, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

[The Eunuch]

So, according to you, Sansa's new arc is the same as Jeyne's in the book?

Lets contrast and compare:

Jeyne was given to LF after the fight that Cersei ordered on the Ned Stark and his people because Cersei thought the daughter of a WF steward has no value and she wanted her gone. LF happily takes her so that he can put a 13 year old to work in a brothel.

Sansa however, is protected from harm during the fighting and after, as she is person of noble birth and has value not only as a political prisoner, but as hedge to keep Jamie alive.

***so far, not the same***

Sansa was kidnapped by LF under false pretenses given to her by his hired man Ser Dontos. Plus, he made sure he had her framed for regicide first so that she wouldn't be able to leave him.

Jeyne just disappears and we don't know what happens to her other than she's in a LF brothel somewhere.

*****still not the same

Jeyne ends up in WF as 'Arya Stark' because LF sold her the Bolton's so they could have Ramsay marry Arya Stark of Winterfell so they could have a claim on WF. Keep in mind, LF has sold her into sexual slavery.

Show!Sansa is taken to WF under false pretenses and is later told they are traveling there so she can marry Ramsay Bolton. Sansa gives a tepid agreement to this plan.

**** So, unlike Jeyne, Sansa hasn't been sold into sexual slavery. LF has told her that by marrying into the Bolton's, she can 'avenge' her family. LF has tricked Sansa because she thought at first it was LF who was to marry. So once again, LF is not honest with her.

Sansa has given consent to marry Ramsay. Jeyne did not give consent to marry Ramsay, she has no say at all what happens to her.

****not the same story, at all!

Ramsay humiliates Jeyne and forces Reek to be an accomplice to rape on their wedding night. Ramsay humiliates Sansa and forces Reek to watch Ramsay rape Sansa on their wedding night.

*** Similar stories now. Sansa's new arc had to take so many ludicrous convolutions but we finally got there. She's raped now, just like Jeyne!

Because murdering her brother and mother weren't enough for her to 'avenge them' (with what? her fugly necklace?) D&D needed a good old fashioned marital rape to 'empower' her, just like Jeyne was empowered so she'll want to have her vengeance. Oppsie, Jeyne isn't empowered but destroyed and her family hasn't been avenged either.

****not the same

So sorry, Jeyne's story and Sansa's story are not the same. At all.

I never said Sansa and Jeyne's arc are the same prior Winterfell. You don't have to make a list of what are the difference, everybody knows that Sansa had not the same path that Jeyne. But it happens that in the show, she is taking Jeyne's place as the wife of Ramsay. The purpose is the same :

- The Boltons need to legitimate their power (toward the people of the North) by marrying a Stark,

- Sansa is prisoner of Littlefinger (exactly like Jeyne).

The revenge thing was planted by Littlefinger, we don't know it it will happen.

As for the scene that shocked you, bad thing happen to all characters al the time and not only one time. You all seem to think that bad shit should only happen once, and the the characters shoud leave happy things. Here are some examples :

- Bran was pushed by the window, and he's a cripple. Did he had revenge on Jaime? No, Jaime's fine, Bran never remembered who did this to him. Did Bran have happy things after that, as a conterpart? No, he saw all his family leave him and die, he was obliged to leave his castle, now he's in the middle of nowhere surrounded by dead. Oh, and one of his friends was stabbed to death while trying to lead him (Jojen, at least in the series).

- Jon is a bastard, he's lied to about his parents, he's send to the Wall (and he's told that's good) in the middle of rapits and murderers. He looses all his family, can't do anything, meets a girl, and then he has to kill her. And now is the happy part, where everything goes well for him after the bad things? No, he's ceasared by his friends.

I can do the same think for any character (Robb is my favorite). None of the characters in this series (books or show) have the typical character development that you're dreaming about : the bad things happen, and then the character can have peace/revenge/love/etc. It never happens in the show.

Yet, when something bad happens to Sansa, you are telling me that "she was treated badly by Joffrey and lost her family, now she can't be raped, it's not realistic!". Why? Do you think that because she was treated badly, now her realistic development would be that she'll become Terminator in one night and kill all Boltons and their army, and also Cersei and the Freys?

No, sorry. That's not Disney, it's Game of Thrones.

[LongRider]

1) Sansa back in the North - she can't go back north unless she's wedded and raped by Ramsay! That's her only ticket there!

2) Theon's redemption - Theon cannot get redemption unless he saves Sansa who has been wedded and raped by Ramsay! That's the only way!

3) Cersei wants the Boltons dead - Sansa being wedded and raped by Ramsay is the only way! LF couldn't have just lied to her, or started a long betrothal!

4) Sansa meeting Brienne's arc - Sansa cannot meet Brienne (even though she already has) without being wedded and raped by Ramsay! It is necessary for... reasons.

5) Sansa meeting Stannis's arc (a lot of things could happen) - now, that one is the most obvious, Sansa definitely needs to be wedded and raped by Ramsay to meet Stannis! Stannis only agrees to meet Starks if they are married to his enemies or raped by a Bolton! It's a strange requirement he makes!

6) Sansa in Jon's arc (with the pink letter) - Yeah, like that's going to happen... :rolleyes:

And could happen:

7) Stark revenge on the Boltons - Well, now you've convinced me. How could anyone imagine a Stark revenge on Boltons without a Stark marrying a Bolton and being raped by a Bolton? That's a fantastic Stark revenge!

LOL! Well done.

[Khal Boner]

I'd take Sansa making lemoncakes over Sansa getting raped, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

This why you don't have your own tv show.

[Aleenys]

*snip*

So, I think clearly, LF was making a solid decision here to marry off Sansa to the Boltons.

:bowdown: /thread

[LongRider]

Yes exactly, the Sansa marriage strategy is well known and highly effective. It's the reason for Napoleon's successful 1805 campaign. He married Sansa off to the Haspburgs.

Goddamn it! I knew I should have studied European history! I missed all the good stuff. :angry2: