Debating Sansa

[Dolorous Gabe]

What is a "gratuitous rape"? :uhoh:

I really hate the many hypocrits on this website. Constantly blaming the quality of this show while the problem is just that they can't accept changes. Daenerys raped by Drogo in season 1? A kid getting thrown by the window? Incest between twins? People getting killed at a wedding? All of this is "normal", "genius", "great writing". But when something bad happens to someone in the show that did not happen in the books, it's "gratuitious" and they blame the quality of the show.

Just stop with your hypocrisy, nobody is fooled.

I'm pretty sure most people accept that changes have to be made.

You seem to have wilfully ignored the many valid criticisms being brought up. It's not about the changes on their own. We're analysing those changes and deciding that they don't make sense and/or amount to bad storytelling.

You're also making that terrible mistake of misapplying opinions to a wide group of people (the dreaded straw man argument) to invent a generalised hypocrisy where there is none.

[Newstar]

I'm not sure. There's also some interviews where she says Sansa learns to manipulate the situation in which she's in - Which for me reads as she manipulates Ramsay and doesn't actually escape a la Jeyne Poole, but decides to stay in Winterfell and somehow plays a role in the taking of the castle. Sansa will have her revenge, something Sophie also teased.

D&D and Cogman have also said she'd be playing now the role of a hardened woman that knows what she wants - And that is Winterfell and becoming Wardeness of the North. And that she's ready to fight for it. I think Sansa's rape will be a plotline as long as Ramsay's alive, and I don't think it will last very long, and then be rugged aside.

To be fair, Sophie Turner slings a lot of bullshit about her upcoming storylines, so it's hard to tell which bullshit is closer to the truth, the "Sansa learns to manipulate her captors a little" (which we've seen precisely zero of, if anything she's been extremely blunt with Myranda and Theon) or the "Sansa wants to stay alive for her brothers." On the other hand, she definitely wasn't lying about the super traumatic scene.

As for Sansa, she didn't seem like a hardened woman when she was tearing up in the 5x07 promo when Ramsay was kissing her--"mute horror" would be how I would describe her expression--and she didn't seem like a hardened woman when in the same promo she appeared to be begging Theon for help. I think the writers' line was that she went into the wedding as a hardened woman, but she was completely unprepared for the extent of Ramsay's depravity, so in 5x07 she appears to be back to crying and looking for a saviour. We shall see, though. There are still four episodes left, so who knows?

It does seem like Ramsay will be heading off to do battle with Stannis, so maybe Sansa will be free of him for the rest of the season and we won't have to deal with some sort of ongoing horror.

[Khal Boner]

Worst post ever. Do you always completely miss the point and post absolute nonsense?

What was the point? You have been misusing the word gratuitous throughout this whole thread.

[The Eunuch]

I'm pretty sure most people accept that changes have to be made.

You seem to have wilfully ignored the many valid criticisms being brought up. It's not about the changes on their own. We're analysing those changes and deciding that they don't make sense and/or amount to bad storytelling.

You're also making that terrible mistake of misapplying opinions to a wide group of people (the dreaded straw man argument) to invent a generalised hypocrisy where there is none.

There is a big hypocrisy, some people are in total denial of the show deviation and their only weapon is to attack the quality of the writing, which is total hypocrisy. And there are no valid criticisms being brought up about Sansa's arc. I know that some people have been yelling "plot holes!" and "bad writing!" every two seconds, that doesn't make it valid.

But come on, make a quick list! I'll answer point by point. In fact I've already answered to these criticism in other threads, I can do it again.

No, I don't remember the dogs from the wedding night, because there were no dogs on Jeyne's wedding night, sorry. Only Theon. So, if you really want Sansa's treatment to be just as bad as Jeyne's, fear not! There's still time for Ramsay to make her have sex with a dog, off-screen, later in their marriage, just as he did with Jeyne.

About the dogs, stop playing with words, you perfectly know what I'm talking about. And I stop you right now : I never said that I want "Sansa's treatment to be as bad as Jeyne's", that's just stupid. I said that Ramsay treated Jeyne worse that he treated Sansa, yet some people here act like the show is more shocking than the series, which is a wrong, and hypocrisy.

Do you always keep missing the point, even after people have explained it you? Even after everyone has elaborated on it throughout the thread? It's not about being "pleasant", it's about good and bad storytelling. Your Straw Men are neither original, nor fun.

Don't talk about "good" or "bad" storytelling : the fact that you're saying that at mid-season just discredits you. You can't know if this rape has no reason to be in the series if you don't know how it ends. We all know that this is the reason why Theon will turn and help her escape, exactly as in the books. We suspect that unlike Jeyne, Sansa could strike the Boltons. And we know that's exactly what the character Ramsay would do in this situation. Yet, you're still complaining with nonsense. Come on, make a list of why this rape is "gratuitious", I'll answer.

[Annara Snow]

About the dogs, stop playing with words, you perfectly know what I'm talking about. And I stop you right now : I never said that I want "Sansa's treatment to be as bad as Jeyne's", that's just stupid. I said that Ramsay treated Jeyne worse that he treated Sansa, yet some people here act like the show is more shocking than the series, which is a wrong, and hypocrisy.

Yes, I know, and what playing with words? He didn't make her have sex with a dog on their wedding night. She only mentions it much later, when they come to rescue her, and it's something new to Theon, who was there for her wedding night. So, you can't say that the wedding night was worse in the books due to dogs, when dogs were not involved in the wedding night, only later. For all you know, Ramsay may still make Sansa have sex with dogs, too.

Don't talk about "good" or "bad" storytelling : the fact that you're saying that at mid-season just discredits you. You can't know if this rape has no reason to be in the series if you don't know how it ends. We all know that this is the reason why Theon will turn and help her escape, exactly as in the books. We suspect that unlike Jeyne, Sansa could strike the Boltons. And we know that's exactly what the character Ramsay would do in this situation. Yet, you're still complaining with nonsense. Come on, make a list of why this rape is "gratuitious", I'll answer.

Oh please. This is nonsense. We've all seen the idiotic storyline they've come up with just to get Sansa to the point where she would be married to and raped by Ramsay. There is no need to "wait and see", nothing about it made any sense since the start of this season.

We all know that this is the reason why Theon will turn and help her escape, exactly as in the books. We suspect that unlike Jeyne, Sansa could strike the Boltons.

Because Sansa couldn't possibly strike against the Boltons unless she is raped, right? Because it's not like she was motivated to strike against them when they just betrayed and murdered her brother and mother! No, she needs rape as motivation to be "empowered"!

And if the whole point was for her to escape, why the fuck did she come to Winterfell in the first place?! Where's her "revenge"?!

[Annara Snow]

What was the point? You have been misusing the word gratuitous throughout this whole thread.

Oh FFS. Just use a fucking dictionary and don't pretend you know what some words mean if you don't actually have a clue.

http://www.onelook.com/?ls=b&w=gratuitous

Hint: All the meanings on the front page apply here, except the last one.

[Khal Boner]

Oh FFS. Just use a fucking dictionary and don't pretend you know what some words mean if you don't actually have a clue.

http://www.onelook.com/?ls=b&w=gratuitous

Hint: All the meanings on the front page apply here, except the last one.

Laughable. If you are going to accuse a writer of writing a gratuitous scene then at least grasp what the word means and how it applies in this context.

[The Eunuch]

Yes, I know, and what playing with words? He didn't make her have sex with a dog on their wedding night. She only mentions it much later, when they come to rescue her, and it's something new to Theon, who was there for her wedding night. So, you can't say that the wedding night was worse in the books due to dogs, when dogs were not involved in the wedding night, only later. For all you know, Ramsay may still make Sansa have sex with dogs, too.

You perfectly know that I was talking about. The relationship between Ramsay and Jeyne is worse in the books than in the show, and I used the dogs as an example. Yet, we are losing our time playing at this little game of "nothing happened with the dogs during the wedding night" while you perfectly know what I'm talking about.

Oh please. This is nonsense. We've all seen the idiotic storyline they've come up with just to get Sansa to the point where she would be married to and raped by Ramsay. There is no need to "wait and see", nothing about it made any sense since the start of this season.

Because Sansa couldn't possibly strike against the Boltons unless she is raped, right? Because it's not like she was motivated to strike against them when they just betrayed and murdered her brother and mother!

Where's her revenge?

1) Maybe you should actually "wait and see" until the end of the season then, instead of asking "where's her revenge" in mid-season.

2) Littlefinger used this to convince her to wed Ramsay. Nobody said that it was certain that it would happen. "If you know what someone wants, you can use him", it's what LF says in the book, and that's exactly what he uses to manipulate Sansa : he pretends he loves her, and now he pretends she can avenge her family.

And don't say nothing makes any sense while you can't even give elements to prove it. I'm still waiting. Everything makes total sense.

And if the whole point was for her to escape, why the fuck did she come to Winterfell in the first place?! Where's her "revenge"?!

Are you seriously asking this?? Of course Sansa didn't know when she came to Winterfell that she would have to escape. This is surreal. Why not ask "Why did Bran climb that tower if he had to fall???"? Seriously? You can't make the difference between what the characters know and want and what the writers know and want?

No, she needs rape as motivation to be "empowered"!

Again, you are totally losing your mind on this. She was "raped" because she's married to a sadistic. It's Ramsay who did this, not the writers. It's surreal that I have to explain this...

[OldGimletEye]

Because Sansa couldn't possibly strike against the Boltons unless she is raped, right? Because it's not like she was motivated to strike against them when they just betrayed and murdered her brother and mother! No, she needs rape as motivation to be "empowered"!

And if the whole point was for her to escape, why the fuck did she come to Winterfell in the first place?! Where's her "revenge"?!

Maybe you haven't heard that Sansa is the deadliest weapon of war known to Westeros. She's even deadlier than all the soldiers in Vale. Why use Vale troops, when you can use Sansa?

You might have heard that Aegon The Conqueror conquered Westeros because of his Dragons. Well, that's not exactly true. It turns out that Aegon, married Sansa off to Harren The Black. Sansa killed many of Harren's soldiers, making Aegon's later assault upon Harrenhal much easier.

And just before The Field of Fire, Aegon, again deployed his most deadly weapon, Sansa , when he married off Sansa to the Gardeners. The Gardeners would have shown up with 200,000 troops, but Sansa killed so many of them that they could only muster 30,000 men, making Aegon's victory a certainty.

[Lord Varys]

Just chiming in - what's this about Jeyne having had sex with a dog? I never caught that. And as I'm thinking about it - was Theon using his tongue or fingers to prepare Jeyne for Ramsay in the wedding night (I interpreted it as Theon using his tongue rather than his finger).

The Sansa plot in the show is fucked. They wanted to do to Sansa what they did to Jeyne, it fulfils no purpose, makes no sense, and should not have been done. Part of me wants to go full Jeyne on Sansa as this would be closer to the Winterfell story as depicted in the books, and everything would be better than this whole Myranda sub plot. The show characters are inconsistent and contradictory anyway, so they can actually make Sansa forget whatever happened to her at Winterfell and have her do a twisted version of whatever George has envisioned for her in TWoW and ADoS.

Anyway, I'm essentially done with the show since 'the Lannisters are broke'.

[Stannistician]

I have to throw in my two cents here. Firstly, I was never a big fan of Sansa in the books or the show.

With that said, this idea that the Jeyne Poole arc and Show Sansa's arc are the same is simply not true. Jeyne's arc was a plot device to bring various storylines together, whereas Sansa's appears to be an end in and of itself (D & D had to bend over backwards to alter character motivations and create illogical subplots just to get Sansa to Winterfell to be raped).

Jeyne's story, by contrast, serves to move several storylines forward:

1. Theon/ Reek's redemption arc

2. GRRM needed a plot device to get all the northern lords gathered in one location. The best way to do this was a wedding (this creates a parallel with the Red Wedding, and many of the northern lords lost kin at the Red Wedding).

3. It serves as an example of what happens to lowborn females in this world (LF had "control" over both Sansa and Jeyne, but Sansa is valuable because of noble birth).

4. One of the major themes in the last two books is identity. Jeyne is claiming Arya's identity at the same time that Arya is becoming "no one". This is also coupled with Sansa becoming Alayne and the Theon v. Reek story.

5. It serves to add to the growing tension between the Bolton/Frey faction and the other northern lords.

Show Sansa's arc only serves to move #1 because there are no Freys and northern lords, no comparison with Arya, etc.

In addition, GRRM did not have to make Roose, LF, Sansa, and Cersei act like complete fools in order to have Jeyne marry Ramsay. It was a logical and consistent part of the whole narrative. In contrast, the Show Sansa arc required Roose, LF, and Sansa to behave like fools just to get Sansa to Winterfell so she could be raped. Show Sansa's rape was treated as the end game in and of itself where everything written before it was written in an effort to make the rape happen, as opposed to Jeyne's story which serves to move the major storylines forward and was not the result of haphazardly creating illogical subplots and having characters behave irrationally.

However, I do think that once Sansa was in Winterfell it made sense for the scene to happen.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Maybe you haven't heard that Sansa is the deadliest weapon of war known to Westeros. She's even deadlier than all the soldiers in Vale. Why use Vale troops, when you can use Sansa?

You might have heard that Aegon The Conqueror conquered Westeros because of his Dragons. Well, that's not exactly true. It turns out that Aegon, married Sansa off to Harren The Black. Sansa killed many of Harren's soldiers, making Aegon's later assault upon Harrenhal much easier.

And just before The Field of Fire, Aegon, again deployed his most deadly weapon, Sansa , when he married off Sansa to the Gardeners. The Gardeners would have shown up with 200,000 troops, but Sansa killed so many of them that they could only muster 30,000 men, making Aegon's victory a certainty.

:rofl: :lmao: Targaryen House Words are not actually Fire and Blood. Its Fire and Sansa.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

{snippage}

Don't talk about "good" or "bad" storytelling : the fact that you're saying that at mid-season just discredits you. You can't know if this rape has no reason to be in the series if you don't know how it ends. We all know that this is the reason why Theon will turn and help her escape, exactly as in the books.

Well, which is it? Do we "can't know" the reason, or do "we all know" the reason? I'm pretty sure it isn't both.

I'm pretty sure most people accept that changes have to be made.

You seem to have wilfully ignored the many valid criticisms being brought up. It's not about the changes on their own. We're analysing those changes and deciding that they don't make sense and/or amount to bad storytelling.

You're also making that terrible mistake of misapplying opinions to a wide group of people (the dreaded straw man argument) to invent a generalised hypocrisy where there is none.

Thank you, thank you for this refreshing breath of clear, sane air. :bowdown:

[The Eunuch]

Show Sansa's rape was treated as the end game in and of itself where everything written before it was written in an effort to make the rape happen, as opposed to Jeyne's story which serves to move the major storylines forward

Is this a joke? Can't you see the major storylines moving with this arc?

1) Sansa back in the North

2) Theon's redemption

3) Cersei wants the Boltons dead

4) Sansa meeting Brienne's arc

5) Sansa meeting Stannis's arc (a lot of things could happen)

6) Sansa in Jon's arc (with the pink letter)

And could happen:

7) Stark revenge on the Boltons

Now, do you really think that the only end game of all this arc is to get Sansa raped?

[The Eunuch]

Well, which is it? Do we "can't know" the reason, or do "we all know" the reason? I'm pretty sure it isn't both.

We all know what happens to Reek and Ramsay's wife in the books, they escape Winterfell. But we can't know yet what will happen with the fact that Sansa is not Jeyne, she's stronger and she could have some revenge on Ramsay or someone else in Winterfell before leaving. They have cut Stoneheart and Manderly, someone could take their role. But that's speculation, unlike the fact that she'll leave with Reek ;)

[Annara Snow]

Again, you are totally losing your mind on this. She was "raped" because she's married to a sadistic. It's Ramsay who did this, not the writers. It's surreal that I have to explain this...

Um, no. She is not real. Why did she marry Ramsay, when that made absolutely no sense? Ah yes, because the writers really wanted to insert that plot and bent over backwards to make it happen.

And you still haven't explained what her revenge is going to be, and why the hell did she need to be married to Ramsay and raped for that to happen?!

[Annara Snow]

Something that's really well worth reading. Especially by all those continuing to defend the choices of the show runners:

A Rape Victim Speaks Out on the Sansa Scene

[Annara Snow]

Is this a joke? Can't you see the major storylines moving with this arc?

1) Sansa back in the North

2) Theon's redemption

3) Cersei wants the Boltons dead

4) Sansa meeting Brienne's arc

5) Sansa meeting Stannis's arc (a lot of things could happen)

6) Sansa in Jon's arc (with the pink letter)

And could happen:

7) Stark revenge on the Boltons

Now, do you really think that the only end game of all this arc is to get Sansa raped?

And which one of these storylines needed Sansa to marry Ramsay and to be raped?!

[Grail King]

I think the wolf thing meaning was a bit different, but you are right, we shall see.

First it was Ned betraying her, even though he didn't do it on purpose. But his choices meant loyalty to the crown without defending what was best for her and Lady was a microcosm of that. Then later Sansa betrayed Ned not on purpose.

Second, Sansa was indeed cut off from the North, but it doesn't mean she could never return, physically, but would have to do so by other means.

Third, the characterization of Lady was...well...a Lady. The meaning to me is that Sansa eventually had the "Lady" in her killed by betrayal and lies.

Finally, the death of Lady has implications for her warging ability. It doesn't necessarily mean she will never warg, but it does mean IMO she will not do so as a wolf. Either that or she will warg Nymeria...which is harder to understand how it would happen because it would imply that Arya dies I think (or becomes noone). The sister rivalry we know will eventually be important somehow, and it seems significant that Lady was killed as a replacement for Nymeria...

Sansa's "Lady" will be killed as a replacement for fArya maybe?

My take on the death of Lady is Ned sacrificed her for Robert and to keep Cersei from getting a complete victory so he sent the wolf back to WF, I take the death of Lady more as the death of Sansa eventually not doing things in a ladylike manner and possibly sacrificing what she wants for herself for the return of her home and getting the North together; I don't think she kills herself.

Sansa's warging ability is stunted she may warg something else, but I don't think it be Nymeria ( at least in the book version) I do think that if Nymeria makes it to the North she will sense Sansa as a pack member and protect her but; not be warged buy her.

I decided not to get my pants in a uproar and just see how it plays out.

I was sad for the rape scene, but I think despite how they frame it Sansa is the stronger person over Theon and after the promo I'm sure she will eventually get Theon free, but she will endure Ramsey to keep her house and hope that Stannis succeeds this time.

[Annara Snow]

Just chiming in - what's this about Jeyne having had sex with a dog? I never caught that. And as I'm thinking about it - was Theon using his tongue or fingers to prepare Jeyne for Ramsay in the wedding night (I interpreted it as Theon using his tongue rather than his finger).

He used his mouth, because later one of Ramsay's boys says Ramsay has threatened to cut out his mouth because it was in his lady's private parts.

The dog thing comes from Jeyne's words when the spearwives and Theon come to rescue her:

Jeyne pulled her wolfskins up to her chin. “No. This is some trick. It’s him, it’s my … my lord, my

sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more

than anything.” A tear ran down her cheek. “Tell him, you tell him. I’ll do what he wants … whatever he

wants … with him or … or with the dog or … please … he doesn’t need to cut my feet off, I won’t try to

run away, not ever, I’ll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it …”

Rowan whistled softly. “Gods curse the man.”

Some people think it wasn't a literal dog but that she's referring to Reek as Ramsay's "dog", but many took it literally.

Maybe you haven't heard that Sansa is the deadliest weapon of war known to Westeros. She's even deadlier than all the soldiers in Vale. Why use Vale troops, when you can use Sansa?

You might have heard that Aegon The Conqueror conquered Westeros because of his Dragons. Well, that's not exactly true. It turns out that Aegon, married Sansa off to Harren The Black. Sansa killed many of Harren's soldiers, making Aegon's later assault upon Harrenhal much easier.

And just before The Field of Fire, Aegon, again deployed his most deadly weapon, Sansa , when he married off Sansa to the Gardeners. The Gardeners would have shown up with 200,000 troops, but Sansa killed so many of them that they could only muster 30,000 men, making Aegon's victory a certainty.

:bowdown:

snip

:agree: