Lord Varys Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Oh, and Margaery could also always change her mind and demand a trial-by-combat in the end should they feel the tide is turning against her. Qyburn will most likely be quite happy to lend Ser Robert Strong to both Cersei and Margaery for that purpose. Especially since Qyburn's position should have become even more shakier after the murder of Kevan and Pycelle - which puts every legal power in the hands of Mace. If Qyburn does not want to end up in a black cell he has to make himself useful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Is there a reason that Varys killed Pycelle? I can't rememeber The general opinion is that Pycelle was one of the last people who knew baby Aegon, so Varys murdred him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Qyburn M.D Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Oh, and Margaery could also always change her mind and demand a trial-by-combat in the end should they feel the tide is turning against her. Qyburn will most likely be quite happy to lend Ser Robert Strong to both Cersei and Margaery for that purpose. Especially since Qyburn's position should have become even more shakier after the murder of Kevan and Pycelle - which puts every legal power in the hands of Mace. If Qyburn does not want to end up in a black cell he has to make himself useful... Thats a good point, but wasen't Rob Strong created to serve only Cersei? cant really remember the dialogue but I thought Qyburn said something like, he lives only to defeat your ememies or something along those lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor227 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Thats a good point, but wasen't Rob Strong created to serve only Cersei? cant really remember the dialogue but I thought Qyburn said something like, he lives only to defeat your ememies or something along those lines Well, considering the alternative should Robert Strong be put forward as a champion is that Robert Strong lose his trial (and thus die/re-die),there's not much that could be done. The most Cersei could do is argue a Kingsguard can only stand in one trial at a time, as Margery is certainly entitled to their support, and indeed, Cersei herself opened the door for his use by declaring only a Kingsguard could stand for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Qyburn has indeed promised Ser Robert to Cersei to drive all the evil out of the Realm etc., but that was prior to Kevan's death - who was okay with Robert winning Cersei's trial-by-combat for her. If Ser Robert can be controlled, Qyburn is holding his leash, not Cersei. And Qyburn may feel the need to ensure his own survival first. If Cersei's trial-by-combat takes place - we don't know yet what she and Mace will do once they learn about Kevan's death - then Ser Robert's victory may quite an impact on the Tyrells, leading to his use in Margaery's defence, too. However, my guess is that Cersei might decide to use him in an attempt to flee the capital with Tommen first. Her trial-by-combat won't give her any legal power back, and she may fear that Mace and Margaery won't stop until they have killed her and her son, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Blue bard is mad, he isn't a reliable source. And although it's been said Margaery can say her maidenhead was broken when riding a horse. And all her lovers came from (forgot which one) kettleblack and he said Cersei was his lover.The only evidence that could be placed against her is pycelle's moon tea. But now that's far worse because he's dead. Might seem like the Tyrells killed him. Of course that her broken hymen and so-called lovers accused by a mad, tortured man, are not all that strong evidence all by themselves but the moon tea, that's another story. Because you need moon tea when you pregnant. You get pregnant when you have sex. When you have sex, you don't have hymen intact anymore. The moon tea connects all the dots. Of couse the moon tea could be meant for someone else than Margaery and Margaery asked for it only because the other girl was too shy to ask herself but would someone believe it? As you said, the situation for Tyrells is getting worse and worse every minute because they will be blamed for the death of Pycelle. And why would you kill a man who said something that wasn't true and what could be easily explained? You don't do such things, so the murder seems to be another strong proof that Margaery isn't just a victim of a terrible accusation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The Tyrells and Lannisters should have brought their armies in and made the high sparrow fly the day Margaery and Cersei were arrested. The high sparrow should count himself lucky that Joffrey and Tywin are dead. There's no way the vile bastard would have accepted his mother and future wife to be treated like that by some idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 People may blame Mace for Pycelle and Kevan's death, but this investigation won't be headed by the High Septon. It happened in the Red Keep itself, and Mace is the Hand (and soon Lord Regent as well). If there is an investigation he'll be heading it, and if he is smart he'll pin the murders on Cersei and prepare to take her head for that. After all, the Tyrells know they didn't arrange those murders, so they'll naturally suspect Cersei, just as Cersei will suspect the Tyrells - just as Varys has intended. And Cersei also has the much better motive. Kevan forced her to walk naked through the city instead of insisting on her release like Tarly did with Margaery and her cousins. And Pycelle abandoned her to the High Septon after her arrest instead of marshalling the Goldcloaks and getting her out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I think Marg is fu..kded. for a number of reasons.. 1) Pycelle testomony was heard by all the court... now that he is dead, alongisde the regent, and Mace has siezed power (i find that the most likely outcome) everyone will think the double assasination was a tyrell coup to take the regency.. and to silence a witness (Pycelle)2) the HS is a misogenist.. he will be biased against Marg and her cousins.3) Tyene Sand will be one of the judges.. of course she will vote against marg.4) Septa Unella, or some other septa taking care of Cersei will be another..she will be swayed against Marg5) Qyburn is in charge of the prisoners.. and that man can work magic (The Blue bard kept to his story and went mad).. i think all of them will confess.6) Varys can produce evidence out of nowwhere as we say in Tyrion´s trial.. he might play a role here.7) Cersei and Taena were trying to get Alla to turn against Marg, and confess.. i think Alla is the one guilty..she might confess if the trial is going wrong.8) the faith already knows she lost her virginity ETA: Lancel could be another judge, representing the warrior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 People may blame Mace for Pycelle and Kevan's death, but this investigation won't be headed by the High Septon. It happened in the Red Keep itself, and Mace is the Hand (and soon Lord Regent as well). If there is an investigation he'll be heading it, and if he is smart he'll pin the murders on Cersei and prepare to take her head for that. After all, the Tyrells know they didn't arrange those murders, so they'll naturally suspect Cersei, just as Cersei will suspect the Tyrells - just as Varys has intended. And Cersei also has the much better motive. Kevan forced her to walk naked through the city instead of insisting on her release like Tarly did with Margaery and her cousins. And Pycelle abandoned her to the High Septon after her arrest instead of marshalling the Goldcloaks and getting her out. Mace also has motive. he removes the obstacles to power.. and silences a key witness against her daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Cadwan Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 While the situation for the Tyrells is getting worse they still have a massive army while the Lannisters strength has been considerably weakened since the start of the series and so it is my belief they will simply take the city by force if Margaery loses her trial. After that they will kill Tommen, imprison Cersei and leave Margaery free to marry Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Campo Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Is there a reason that Varys killed Pycelle? I can't rememeber There's none given - but I think Varys kills Pycelle for the same reason as he does Kevan - to create further distrust amongst those in King's Landing. Since Pycelle was the only one with any real evidence against Margaery (the moon tea), and Kevan will likely be replaced by Mace, the whole thing will reek of Tyrell, even if we know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The Tyrells and Lannisters should have brought their armies in and made the high sparrow fly the day Margaery and Cersei were arrested. The high sparrow should count himself lucky that Joffrey and Tywin are dead. There's no way the vile bastard would have accepted his mother and future wife to be treated like that by some idiot Tywin never would've armed the Faith militant to begin with. But if the Lannisters and Tyrells send their armies against the Faith, chances are that's going to end with a massive revolt that may not be confined to King's Landing. It may be inevitable at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Yeah, but who is going to accuse Mace openly if he his going to be the guy conducting the investigation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerg Sknab Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Of course that her broken hymen and so-called lovers accused by a mad, tortured man, are not all that strong evidence all by themselves but the moon tea, that's another story. Because you need moon tea when you pregnant. You get pregnant when you have sex. When you have sex, you don't have hymen intact anymore. The moon tea connects all the dots. Of couse the moon tea could be meant for someone else than Margaery and Margaery asked for it only because the other girl was too shy to ask herself but would someone believe it? As you said, the situation for Tyrells is getting worse and worse every minute because they will be blamed for the death of Pycelle. And why would you kill a man who said something that wasn't true and what could be easily explained? You don't do such things, so the murder seems to be another strong proof that Margaery isn't just a victim of a terrible accusation. And there you are correct. I posit Margaery's requests for moon tea from Pycelle were made on behalf of Taena Merryweather. Taena likely had several reasons for this subterfuge, one of the most likely was Cersei's unstable mental state. The key to it all as far as Margaery's trial is whether Taena returns from Longtable to testify. If the high Septon insists trying Margaery for say sacrilege of the "Maiden's Day" ceremony then it is a pretty much foregone conclusion that Margaery will be guilty. Margaery's only way out would be to confess, offer an explanation eg "horse riding", beg forgivness and offer penance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Yeah, but who is going to accuse Mace openly if he his going to be the guy conducting the investigation? No one has to accuse him.. its like those kind of things that everyone "knows" what happened in my country a prosecutor appeared dead in his apartment a day before declaring at congress against the president and the foreign affairs minister. till this day no one knows if he killed himself, the case got pretty messy. But at first everybody thought he was killed by the government.. everyone had a different conspiracy theory Same happens here. the main witness against the queen appears dead against alongside the Regent, and the queen´s father takes the power as a result.. its pretty obvious who benefits from that move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Tywin never would've armed the Faith militant to begin with. But if the Lannisters and Tyrells send their armies against the Faith, chances are that's going to end with a massive revolt that may not be confined to King's Landing. It may be inevitable at this point. The trouble with these armies of the faith is that they are poorly trained and rely mostly on the concept that the Gods are protecting them. Starve them to death or send professional soldiers to cut the high sparrow in half and they will soon start to question why the Gods would have allowed such 'tragedy' to happen. However they have to act NOW when the gates to kingslanding are still in their hands. The day Westeros notices that their noblemen are common people that can be humiliated and killed is the day when the noblemen's power vanishes in thin wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 While the situation for the Tyrells is getting worse they still have a massive army while the Lannisters strength has been considerably weakened since the start of the series and so it is my belief they will simply take the city by force if Margaery loses her trial. After that they will kill Tommen, imprison Cersei and leave Margaery free to marry Aegon. I would work things differently a- I would barge in Kingslanding with the entire Tyrell's army. I'll take control over the city, arrest every Lannister around and I would 'free' the city from fundamentalists. Cersei will remain in my hands and Tommen will remain 'king' but he would be 'protected' by Tyrell soldiers b- Id send Robert Strong and Cersei's head to Doran Martell. Id promise him Jamie's head too if he agrees to join me to battle against Aegon c- Id send the Tyrell fleet to Mereen. Id handle the key to Westeros to Dany with just two conditions - She will have to marry Willas Tyrell - Casterly Rock will be given to Margaery Tyrell and her husband Tommen (the marriage will be matriarchal). The Tyrells will be Wardens of both the reach and the Westerlands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Actually, I'd say that she chose wisely when she decided for this type of trial. People love her and this will make her look like a humble girl. I've always felt it like the trial by combat is chosen by the guilty ones (although Tyrion did it twice and both times he was innocent) and the trial of seven by the innocent ones because in the trial by combat all you have to do is have a better warrior. Tyrion wouldn't have won either of those trials regardless of innocence. It was the only move he had. I believe that Marg is innocent. I don't believe that she used moontea, either he lied or someone else used it. Not really. A lord's daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk Always a good point. Always figured that being Queen was more important than getting laid. Ah yes how could I forget that awesome chapter, ya gotta love the spider. Yeah i actually agree with you here, if Marg had chosen a trial by combat she could of picked Randyll as her champion, that would of been awesome Agreed I want to finally see that Randyll is a badass scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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