Heresy 168

[Sly Wren]

This is true only in as much to say how much influence goes back and forth.Exactly, where the gifts actually came from? I'm of the belief its just magic and out of the influence of the greenseers.In Ghost and Shaggy's case to me for sure .

It is probably one of those things that will never get explained which is cool.The Dragons on the other hand,those things are out of their time and probably would be still sleeping if it weren't for the Valyrians and the fact that they are in play doesn't bode well.Its probably a good thing and nature's way of balancing for now that Dany is barren.If she truly is the last Dragonlord.Those Dragon's will need to die or go to Valyria.

Yes, yes, yes on the dragons.

And yes--direwolves are part of Stark kids. Just think the potential trap is how each kid uses wolf-link. How they assert their Stark identity to (hopefully) get away from some of their "mentors" and get back to Winterfell. IE: If Arya stays where she is, both herself and with Nymeria--that could be a trap.

Quickly: read your "cult leader" argument--still can't join you there. Leaf just as likely to be leader.

[Sly Wren]

ETA: Finally, if Lyanna's death preceded the toj battle, then Lyanna's promise could be related to the reason that Eddard and his six companion traveled to the tower in the first place.

So, Ned fights the TOJ battle to avenge Lyanna? Viable. Still not clear on why those three are at TOJ.

[Frey family reunion]

So, Ned fights the TOJ battle to avenge Lyanna? Viable. Still not clear on why those three are at TOJ.

Possibly or to retrieve something that was taken from Lyanna, eta: and the three knights may have been guarding what Lyanna wanted Ned to retrieve.

[Sly Wren]

Possibly or to retrieve something that was taken from Lyanna, eta: and the three knights may have been guarding what Lyanna wanted Ned to retrieve.

Maybe--but now I've got this image of three Kingsguard watching Lyanna's purse.

No way to be sure--but wondering what Lyanna could have that would be worth three kingsguard.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...And thus Jon was probably traded for Dawn...

That's a nice, and succinctly put, image right there. I like it.

[Frey family reunion]

Maybe--but now I've got this image of three Kingsguard watching Lyanna's purse.

No way to be sure--but wondering what Lyanna could have that would be worth three kingsguard.

Heh, maybe not her purse, but perhaps something that came out of her pocketbook, heh.

[Black Crow]

So, Ned fights the TOJ battle to avenge Lyanna? Viable. Still not clear on why those three are at TOJ.

Ah well this comes back to my Ronin theory, which as GRRM has kindly confirmed Jon was not at the tower, is worth trotting out again:

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning. That then leaves Lyanna.

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Again hold this for a moment, because there’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, not improbably leading those 10,000 Dornishmen, later commanded at the Trident by Lewyn Martell. However before returning he in turn orders Hightower, Dayne and Whent to remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

So let’s look at what happens:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, he has usurped the throne, they acknowledge that he holds the throne, they just refuse to recognise him as their king.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

Here Aerys is still their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour as members of Aerys’ guard do not allow it.

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

Conversely if we read everything as an encounter on the road - the only road - between the three knights heading north from Starfall and Ned Stark heading south to Starfall, the language makes sense, Ned's recollection of burying them [when he's awake] makes sense, his journey to Starfall afterwards makes sense, his recollection of the dying Lya, not at a lonely watchtower but in Starfall makes sense, and so too his learning there that Rhaegar called the place where they all died the tower of joy.

So why are they at the tower?

The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.

As to why they fight, whatever the reason for his absence, Rhaegar was gone from Kings Landing for some time. Given the way things went when he re-appeared I think it’s reasonable that he came north with those 10,000 Dornishmen and that learning of them Aerys despatched Martell to command them. Whether Martell and Rhaegar met on the road, or passed each other en route probably doesn't much matter, but what does is that remark about Rhaegar recognising "in the end" that Aerys was mad.

We now know from the World Book about Rhaegar’s involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

It is a formal recounter out of The Three Musketeers [and I'd recommend reading the big duel at the beginning for a feel of what I mean] or if you prefer more like the OK corral than the defence of the Alamo.

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne. He is the King now. Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him.

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your Queen and Prince Viserys. [now Aerys' heir] I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already diedfor the Mad King. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes, yes, yes on the dragons.

And yes--direwolves are part of Stark kids. Just think the potential trap is how each kid uses wolf-link. How they assert their Stark identity to (hopefully) get away from some of their "mentors" and get back to Winterfell. IE: If Arya stays where she is, both herself and with Nymeria--that could be a trap.

Quickly: read your "cult leader" argument--still can't join you there. Leaf just as likely to be leader.

This is it right there and a lot of it comes down to identity and the battle of one that is formed through life experiances(good or bad) one that is forced because of the need for hiding or familiarl due to their identities as "Pack" we see this a bit with Bran when Summer took over V6's pack and Bran had to check him and remind him " No we have a pack remember Nym,Lady,Shaggy,Greywind,remember Ghost."

Arya feels abandon and this Nym has substituited her Pack and we see glimpses of her old life reasserting themselves.

Poor Ghost just howls in the night for them,trying to find where they are.....Damn it it makes you wanna tear up...Right in the feels.

Back to the Greenseers/COTF relationship i'm not saying there is a cult mentality only that religious leaders can go to that extreme and so to their followers.

I'm saying there is a certain level of trust in this relationship because the Greenseer position has a certain amount of reverence to the COTF.And it is a position that prompt ones identity as a greenseer to be questioned internally.Do you master it or let it master you.To be hooked up to a planetary database from which you can view the past and the present and discern what could be and no one is checking you.....Hmmmm

That's a nice, and succinctly put, image right there. I like it.

I actually like this myself this is really sweet and it gave me a thought.

Ah well this comes back to my Ronin theory, which as GRRM has kindly confirmed Jon was not at the tower, is worth trotting out again:

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning. That then leaves Lyanna.

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Again hold this for a moment, because there’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, not improbably leading those 10,000 Dornishmen, later commanded at the Trident by Lewyn Martell. However before returning he in turn orders Hightower, Dayne and Whent to remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

So let’s look at what happens:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, he has usurped the throne, they acknowledge that he holds the throne, they just refuse to recognise him as their king.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

Here Aerys is still their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour as members of Aerys’ guard do not allow it.

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

Conversely if we read everything as an encounter on the road - the only road - between the three knights heading north from Starfall and Ned Stark heading south to Starfall, the language makes sense, Ned's recollection of burying them [when he's awake] makes sense, his journey to Starfall afterwards makes sense, his recollection of the dying Lya, not at a lonely watchtower but in Starfall makes sense, and so too his learning there that Rhaegar called the place where they all died the tower of joy.

So why are they at the tower?

The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.

As to why they fight, whatever the reason for his absence, Rhaegar was gone from Kings Landing for some time. Given the way things went when he re-appeared I think it’s reasonable that he came north with those 10,000 Dornishmen and that learning of them Aerys despatched Martell to command them. Whether Martell and Rhaegar met on the road, or passed each other en route probably doesn't much matter, but what does is that remark about Rhaegar recognising "in the end" that Aerys was mad.

We now know from the World Book about Rhaegar’s involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

It is a formal recounter out of The Three Musketeers [and I'd recommend reading the big duel at the beginning for a feel of what I mean] or if you prefer more like the OK corral than the defence of the Alamo.

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne. He is the King now. Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him.

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your Queen and Prince Viserys. [now Aerys' heir] I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already diedfor the Mad King. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

This needs to be a link in your sig BC :cool4: It all the rave.

[Sly Wren]

This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already diedfor the Mad King. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

Which would explain why Ned conflates it with the memory of Lyanna's death--these three men fought entirely for honor and died for a king and cause already dead. Then he finds Lyanna dying--pointless and horrible--all one event, especially since he's now back in the middle of Robert's mess in King's Landing.

Plus--the fact that when the Trident is mentioned, they don't say "Rhaegar would still be alive" but that the Usuper would be dead--they are much more focused on Aerys--possibly because they are angry from Rhaegar's orders?

I like this. Fabulous! (but I am warming to the idea that Lyanna really loved her purse.)

[Black Crow]

Worth also bearing in mind that what triggered the dream was the equally pointless slaughter of his men outside Littlefinger's establishment

[Sly Wren]

Heh, maybe not her purse, but perhaps something that came out of her pocketbook, heh.

Hey, she just had a baby. Girl needs her compact!

Seriously--fully agree that the timeline could easily be mixed around. Just not sure why the Kingsguard would be there if guarding something of Lyanna's. And if assume Black Crow's Ronin theory for the fight, why fight on the way back? Seems like an odd choice.

[Sly Wren]

This is it right there and a lot of it comes down to identity and the battle of one that is formed through life experiances(good or bad) one that is forced because of the need for hiding or familiarl due to their identities as "Pack" we see this a bit with Bran when Summer took over V6's pack and Bran had to check him and remind him " No we have a pack remember Nym,Lady,Shaggy,Greywind,remember Ghost."

Arya feels abandon and this Nym has substituited her Pack and we see glimpses of her old life reasserting themselves.

Poor Ghost just howls in the night for them,trying to find where they are.....Damn it it makes you wanna tear up...Right in the feels.

Back to the Greenseers/COTF relationship i'm not saying there is a cult mentality only that religious leaders can go to that extreme and so to their followers.

I'm saying there is a certain level of trust in this relationship because the Greenseer position has a certain amount of reverence to the COTF.And it is a position that prompt ones identity as a greenseer to be questioned internally.Do you master it or let it master you.To be hooked up to a planetary database from which you can view the past and the present and discern what could be and no one is checking you.....Hmmmm

Amen on the wolves.

On the Greenseers--still not buying that they are running the show. But fully agree that Bran is in a terrifying position--thinking his Starkness will come to the fore (back to the wolves) and he will refuse to do as Bloodraven has done. Break from BR and Children in some way. So, whether you think the Children are in charge or the Greenseers, both agree Bran's situation is perilous?

[Frey family reunion]

The idea of the three Kingsguards only fulfilling their vow by finishing the war and dying for the king they failed in life is a tempting one. I'd be a little more receptive if it wasn't Eddard and his buddies that had to track them down as opposed to the Kingsguards leading a last charge. But of course, perhaps the Kingsguards sent word as to where they would be waiting. I still can't get around the fact how cocksure they are that their absence from the Trident, and King's Landing, and Dragonstone, is explained because of their status as Kingsguards.

It seems to me that their attitude should have been shame in their failure with a determination that this last act will help them finally fulfill their vow, but that's not the vibe I get.

And notably they do not refer to Aerys as King, they only refer to him as Aerys, perhaps unimportant but I found it significant.

[Black Crow]

Aerys is dead, he has joined the choir invisible, he is no more. He is an ex king.

He was their king and would be still if they had any say in the matter, but there's significantly no mention of another King to protect. There's Viserys, but he's fled to Dragonstone. Sad. They don't and they've sworn a vow.

[Black Crow]

Just for the sake of even-handedness, back on Werthead's thread some posts have just been dug up by a witness saying that GRRM was irritated by the question and that it asked whether any men other than Messrs Stark and Reed left the tower alive.

Its not really a question that makes sense and also seems very much at odds with Werthead's version [albeit not first hand but from more than one source] that referred to Jon and described GRRM as amused

[Sly Wren]

The idea of the three Kingsguards only fulfilling their vow by finishing the war and dying for the king they failed in life is a tempting one. I'd be a little more receptive if it wasn't Eddard and his buddies that had to track them down as opposed to the Kingsguards leading a last charge. But of course, perhaps the Kingsguards sent word as to where they would be waiting. I still can't get around the fact how cocksure they are that their absence from the Trident, and King's Landing, and Dragonstone, is explained because of their status as Kingsguards.

It seems to me that their attitude should have been shame in their failure with a determination that this last act will help them finally fulfill their vow, but that's not the vibe I get.

And notably they do not refer to Aerys as King, they only refer to him as Aerys, perhaps unimportant but I found it significant.

1. Fully agree that whether Ned and Co. had to track them down or if they were waiting for the fight will make a big difference--the last stand/ setting up for revenge mindset only works if they're seeking it out.

2. On the "cocksure:" Barristan keeps to his vows by sticking with the new King--but he mentions that he was never really accepted. Jaime only accepted because of Tywin. So, maybe these three had been together doing the math: knew that they did NOT want to serve "Usurper," but did not want to abandon their vows. See themselves as choosing the only possible honorable ground (vs. Jaime, Barristan, etc.). That can make people cocksure--getting in the mindset of "I'm more righteous than the rest"--gearing up for the righteous fight--maybe. Plus they are all together--talking each other into this plan--can up the hung-ho quotient.

3. As for the "Aerys"--I'd been reading that as almost affection--not "The King" but our King, "Aerys."Like the Hill Clans call Ned "The Ned" vs. "Lord Stark." Granted, Aerys ain't cuddly, but the rightness of their vows and whole lives were based on serving him. And he's dead. Can make even these three sentimental?

Or all just blather--bottom line: I agree that it comes down to the psychology of these men (and Martin's eventual plotting).

[wolfmaid7]

Amen on the wolves.

On the Greenseers--still not buying that they are running the show. But fully agree that Bran is in a terrifying position--thinking his Starkness will come to the fore (back to the wolves) and he will refuse to do as Bloodraven has done. Break from BR and Children in some way. So, whether you think the Children are in charge or the Greenseers, both agree Bran's situation is perilous?

I hope he breaks from them and take up his rightful place imo at winterfell."Absolute power corrupts absolutely," it's said and i think Bran for a while could embrace the darkside of the force because in his mind it may look like justice.Which is like a 5 yr old with a machine gun.To date Bran has gotten no limitations or boundaries except not calling Ned back from the dead from BR and the little tree huggers.

But among the other skinchangers there was a code, a list of dos' and donts.Even the Reeds had boundaries for Bran.

He didn't like being told what to do,just as he disobeyed his mother about climbing.

BR was watching Bran his whole life and i can't help think this is precisley the reason Bran was chosen by him,his propensity for not playing by the rules.

[Voice]

Oh very interesting.Thank you. I had an inkling there was something interesting said from a bit of outraged murmuring across the way, but it does indeed mean that Starfall is looking pretty good and that crashing sound you can hear is an awful lot of dominoes going down. GRRM did after all know exactly what was really being asked.

:commie: :commie: :commie:

I thought I'd check out what Heresy has been up to while I was refreshing my understanding of the "standard narrative" in a certain other place. Lo and behold, it's the same discussion! Gods be damned! LOL

I'm pretty surprised by how attached people are to the romanticized version of the toj. Truly.

But does it? And here again we have that curious dichotomy about the R+L=J business, if the real threat to Westeros is the horror from the North and so much depends on the utilising or defeating the Old Powers [take your pick] why then repeat the mistake of concentrating on the struggle for the Iron Throne and regarding it as more important that Jon be recognised as the son of Rhaegar [and through the assertion that the Rhaegar and Lyanna must have married] that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne, blood of the dragon and the gods know what else, when the real struggle is in the North culminating in that battle of Winterfell spoken of in the synopsis. The Iron Throne is an irrelevant distraction and in terms of a conflict waged since time began of very recent [and foreign] origin.

I must say I agree with much of this.

The fact is that no matter how many tales of co-operation may be cited from the land on long long ago, the Pact has broken by Men - comprehensively.

Are Andals not Men?

Men cut down and burned the weirwoods in the south and men slaughtered the inhuman children, taking their hunting grounds and forcing them to flee. Arguing that it was the Andals who did it, not the First Men, is but semantics, because both are Men and both intermarried and became as one.

I completely disagree.

The long night, if caused by a breach in the Pact, came long before the Andals.

The Andals, while Men, have absolutely nothing to do with the Pact. Intermarriage since the Andal Invasion has muddied the waters, but that does not suddenly make Andal people accountable under the terms of the Pact.

The Game changed. As it always changes.

[Black Crow]

I'm pretty surprised by how attached people are to the romanticized version of the toj. Truly.

I think the problem essentially is that the theory has been accepted as an accomplished fact and that the discussion is consequently blinkered.

[Black Crow]

I completely disagree.

The long night, if caused by a breach in the Pact, came long before the Andals.

The Andals, while Men, have absolutely nothing to do with the Pact. Intermarriage since the Andal Invasion has muddied the waters, but that does not suddenly make Andal people accountable under the terms of the Pact.

The Game changed. As it always changes.

Ah well there we'll have to continue to disagree because the Andals are not a different species, they are but men who came to Westeros with the same mindset [if not necessarily the same religious beliefs] as the First Men.

Indeed, although we understand very little if anything about the gods of the First Men before they [or some of them] adopted those of the children, its entirely possible that their gods and those now comprising the Seven have a common root, and at all events from the point of view of the children men came to Westeros and cut down and burned the weirwoods and then cut down the children too until the pact was agreed; then came more men who cut down and burned the weirwoods... What to the Children is the difference? And particularly when the North goes the same way and the only refuge for them as a people is beyond the Wall?