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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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She pretty much confirms that if George tells them something, he's going to do it. So there you go book trolls...confirmation it was going to happen by Stannis' hand.

Get over it, it's the character arc Martin has had in mind for him since the beginning and plenty of smart readers saw it coming.

Doesn't bode too well for the ending then, seems like a jump the shark type of twist that is inconsistent with his prior characterization. Maybe Jon Snow is really dead and will come back a zombie. Is there going to be anyone to care about or root for by the end of this series? If not, what was the point of it all? Life sucks whether you're good or bad. Neat.

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Remarkably good Dorne content considering what we got in certain earlier episodes.

Apart from the scene with the sandsnakes playing slapsies like it was something deep and meaningful. That was cringeworthy.

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Apart from the scene with the sandsnakes playing slapsies like it was something deep and meaningful. That was cringeworthy.

So I'm a straight man, and I definitely objectify women.. but no one has a problem with Trystane getting the seat on the small council? I know Dorne has been off from the start, but still..

Edit-that bothered as much as Stannis when I was watching & my phone sucks.

Edited by Adam with one D

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So I'm a straight man, and I definitely objectify women.. but no one has a problem with Trystane getting the seat on the small council? I know Dorne has been off from the start, but still..

Edit-my phone sucks.

What's the problem with Trystane getting the scene on the small council?

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Doesn't bode too well for the ending then, seems like a jump the shark type of twist that is inconsistent with his prior characterization. Maybe Jon Snow is really dead and will come back a zombie. Is there going to be anyone to care about or root for by the end of this series? If not, what was the point of it all? Life sucks whether you're good or bad. Neat.

You wouldn't be the first person to level that criticism at Martin.

And I disagree about the characterization. Stannis has ultimately put his belief in his destiny above everything else because he believes that he alone can save the realm. This is just the hardest sacrifice of them all, but one his own words (from the book) foreshadows that he understand he might have to make at some point. He's following the Agamemnon storyline that Martin chose for him.

People are confusing the horror of the sacrifice with a break in character. The moral dilemma he was facing he has faced before and each time he made the same choice - make the sacrifice to save lives and fulfill the destiny he believes he has. To NOT sacrifice Shireen and take his chances without Mel's blessing would've been the true break in character.

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Stannis is not grey for them. He is plain evil. Gregor level.

Key word here is AMBITION. And the writters said it. Thats how they get the guy.

It was AMBITION vs FAMILY.

Stannis is the worst human being in the five seasons. Nobody has done something as evil and selfish as him.

I have never particularly liked Stannis, but I don't see him as the most evil and selfish character for burning his child. He is a rigid thinker. Nothing else about his psychology is nearly as dominant as his rigidity. In his mind, Shireen was the sacrifice he had to make to save Westeros. Both my favorite shows have made the same error in the past two weeks: pushing a character through a crisis too fast. We needed to see Stannis struggle with his decision. Even 30 seconds of a change on his face would have helped.

I don't want to rank horrors, but torture is not the same as killing. It just isn't. Torture is MUCH worse than killing and always has been. If anything, the torturous aspect of burning is the worst of what he did to Shireen. A clean death like the one Ned gave Lady would have been far preferable. But the red god is only interested in burning as I understand it, right?

Killing your child is not the worst kind of evil, sorry to say.

Read Medea. The Greeks saw the tragedy in her murder of her children. She wasn't the worst evil possible.

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You wouldn't be the first person to level that criticism at Martin.

And I disagree about the characterization. Stannis has ultimately put his belief in his destiny above everything else because he believes that he alone can save the realm. This is just the hardest sacrifice of them all, but one his own words (from the book) foreshadows that he understand he might have to make at some point. He's following the Agamemnon storyline that Martin chose for him.

People are confusing the horror of the sacrifice with a break in character. The moral dilemma he was facing he has faced before and each time he made the same choice - make the sacrifice to save lives and fulfill the destiny he believes he has. To NOT sacrifice Shireen and take his chances without Mel's blessing would've been the true break in character.

This is the same guy who won't burn Asha Greyjoy? The same guy who tells Massy to put Shireen on the throne even if he is dead? And that is ignoring the logistical challenges faced based on where he is and where she is....

I do see it as a break in character. He feels deeply guilty about Renly, and he didn't even like Renly and Renly was technically committing treason and took the field against him. He intends to punish Robert's murderers even though, again, he didn't like Robert....but you tell me he's going to burn his daughter alive when he hasn't in the books burned anyone who isn't already under sentence of death and say it's not a change in character? Sorry. I don't see it. I actually have seen Stannis getting less grey as time has gone on, not more grey. I would see this as a weird reversal.

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What's the problem with Trystane getting the scene on the small council?

Isn't it one of the Sand Snakes.. but since they aged up Trystane and left out Arianne, I know why they did it. I suppose the downgrading of women's equality in Dorne in general has bothered me. I'm nitpicking a lot I know, but that episode really got to me. I still think D&D do as well as anyone could & I'm venting, but that's why we're here right?

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Doesn't bode too well for the ending then, seems like a jump the shark type of twist that is inconsistent with his prior characterization. Maybe Jon Snow is really dead and will come back a zombie. Is there going to be anyone to care about or root for by the end of this series? If not, what was the point of it all? Life sucks whether you're good or bad. Neat.

NO! I don't see him being dead, do you? But how could he survive being surrounded by blades that stabbed over and over?! I've just seen a lot of you guys saying that in the books Shireen will die and somehow save Jon... do we really think that?! I never thought about it honestly, but I think I can see it happening...

What's the problem with Trystane getting the scene on the small council?

It's not supposed to be him, it's not even supposed to be a man - it's supposed to be one of the Sand Snakes - Nymeria, right? It's an interesting decision to make it Trystane, a little irritating but not all that surprising, considering how the Sand Snakes have been portrayed in the show.

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Isn't it one of the Sand Snakes.. but since they aged up Trystane and left out Arianne, I know why they did it. I suppose the downgrading of women's equality in Dorne in general has bothered me. I'm nitpicking a lot I know, but that episode really got to me. I still think D&D do as well as anyone could & I'm venting, but that's why we're here right?

Yeah in the books it's Nymeria, but I don't think it really matters. I expect some of the sandsnakes to accompany him to KL anyway.

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lol,



poor book stannis is so warm harted that he has sent what under his view might be the most important tool to rule the north to Jon Snow, knowing he might do anything with his sister, as sending her to the other side of the world... he does this because he feels he is in debt with Jon...



So there he is in far worst conditions, with his men almost in mutiny, eating each other, etc, etc, with two royal blooded (a Stark, presumed, and a greyjoy) but says "no more burnings".



He is ready to fight and die. And ask one of his knights to fight for his daughter.



How can someone answer this saying that what happened tonight is on character??????


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Yeah in the books it's Nymeria, but I don't think it really matters. I expect some of the sandsnakes to accompany him to KL anyway.

Like I said I'm nitpicking cause it didn't sneak up on me, but replacing a woman with a man in a position of power does.

And I know GRRM abused Jeyne Poole worse than anyone in GoT to this point, but I appreciated the fact he slipped some women's lib in there too.

Edit-someone earlier pointed out how badly women are treated in the books, and I'm not oblivious about it.

Edited by Adam with one D

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I don't see it as a change in character -- I think when he first steps onto the stage, he has a choice to listen to Maester Cressen and Davos, or to Melisandre. He makes his choice with Cressen, and then he makes it again and again with Davos. The stake was the only place that path could lead, and GRRM has been drawing us there since ACOK. You can say his character is changed because he's corrupted by Melisandre, but he still had to choose to be corrupted by her and clearly he's especially vulnerable to that corruption because of his character.



"Stannis, my sad, sullen boy, son I never had, don't you know how I cared for you, lived for you, loved you despite all? Yes, loved you better than Robert even, or Renly, for you were the most unloved, the one who needed me most." -- Maester Cressen



A tragic figure, no doubt, like Agamemnon...but the show didn't do it to him.

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This is the same guy who won't burn Asha Greyjoy? The same guy who tells Massy to put Shireen on the throne even if he is dead? And that is ignoring the logistical challenges faced based on where he is and where she is....

I do see it as a break in character. He feels deeply guilty about Renly, and he didn't even like Renly and Renly was technically committing treason and took the field against him. He intends to punish Robert's murderers even though, again, he didn't like Robert....but you tell me he's going to burn his daughter alive when he hasn't in the books burned anyone who isn't already under sentence of death and say it's not a change in character? Sorry. I don't see it. I actually have seen Stannis getting less grey as time has gone on, not more grey. I would see this as a weird reversal.

He's faced a lot of moral dilemmas. He doesn't have to be a raging, evil maniac to make this choice. He just has to believe in his destiny and a utilitarian view on life above all else. And he does.

Maybe another way to say this is that he can love his daughter and still do this. In fact, if he didn't love his daughter he might have done it long ago. Since this is confirmed to happen (for all intents and purposes) by his hand - the geographical differences are rather moot. The truth is that he's going to face a need at some point soon in the books and he'll resort to his greatest sacrifice.

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Since this is confirmed to happen (for all intents and purposes) by his hand - the geographical differences are rather moot.

Where is this confirmed?

Edited by Borodin

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He's faced a lot of moral dilemmas. He doesn't have to be a raging, evil maniac to make this choice. He just has to believe in his destiny and a utilitarian view on life above all else. And he does.

Maybe another way to say this is that he can love his daughter and still do this. In fact, if he didn't love his daughter he might have done it long ago. Since this is confirmed to happen (for all intents and purposes) by his hand - the geographical differences are rather moot. The truth is that he's going to face a need at some point soon in the books and he'll resort to his greatest sacrifice.

Then it will be BS. I'll say it now, I'll say it when the book comes out. It won't be the first misstep by the author, though he looks like Shakespeare compared to the Ds. Leeches killed 3 kings, but he needs to kill his own daughter? It will make no sense. It will be an awful ending and the ruination of a great character, who sure, is flawed and nobody who needs to be king, but he's not evil or bad, he is in fact attempting to do good, even Mel thinks she's doing good unlike the off the chain sexed up, disrobing crazy eyed nut job Mel in the show.

But, this is a digression. It will be very disappointing if the books have Stannis himself involved directly and not Mel and Selyse doing it at the Wall on their own. Very disappointing.

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Are we allowed to make a parallel rant/rave thread other than positive nitpicking to talk about the show without haters piling on? I liked coming here because I could geek out about likes and dislikes with other nerds, but now you can't even have a quote thread without it getting slammed by off-the-wall show bashers. It's sad.

(Cue obligatory comment about how the real sad thing is what D&D have done to the show. :()

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Then it will be BS. I'll say it now, I'll say it when the book comes out. It won't be the first misstep by the author, though he looks like Shakespeare compared to the Ds. Leeches killed 3 kings, but he needs to kill his own daughter? It will make no sense. It will be an awful ending and the ruination of a great character, who sure, is flawed and nobody who needs to be king, but he's not evil or bad, he is in fact attempting to do good, even Mel thinks she's doing good unlike the off the chain sexed up, disrobing crazy eyed nut job Mel in the show.

But, this is a digression. It will be very disappointing if the books have Stannis himself involved directly and not Mel and Selyse doing it at the Wall on their own. Very disappointing.

I think D&D are incredibly frustrating. I just realized how much better they've made me empathize with Allister Thorne than Stannis. Cause as small as it would've been, if Stannis said he had to win Winterfell & the IT to save the world... not a huge leap for me.

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hope you are right... anyway he made this mess. Im so done with this :(

Exactly.

What was the point of selling the rights to books you havent even finished? When you know it takes you a long time to complete just one of them and you had two (or more!) to go?

He could have finished the books and then sold the rights so that way he would have more time to help work on the tv series. But he didnt so we're stuck with this and all of the passive-agressing shade throwing doesnt mean jack. It's his fault.

Are we allowed to make a parallel rant/rave thread other than positive nitpicking to talk about the show without haters piling on? I liked coming here because I could geek out about likes and dislikes with other nerds, but now you can't even have a quote thread without it getting slammed by off-the-wall show bashers. It's sad.

(Cue obligatory comment about how the real sad thing is what D&D have done to the show. :()

Nope. We discussed this last week. They want all the threads and there's nothing we can do about it. They hate the show that much. Edited by RoamingRonin

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