Robert was pretty bad..

[TimJames]

Ok, you all agree he's a horrible person. But c'mon, he's also The Man. Big Bad Bobby B swinging his war hammer for all to see!

I don't think Robert is a horrible person. I think Robert is actually a good person at the end of the day: he just happens to be severely depressed.

Apparently I'm the only one here who thinks Robert was a good guy.

[TimJames]

Robert was awesome.

He wanted to bring his bastard daughter to court but Cersei threatened to murder her. He set Edric Storm up with a good life. Even Gendry, born to a tavern wench was given a good future as being a blacksmith is about as close to "upper middle class" as it gets in Westeros, especially when your master is the best smith in the country.

As to Bob hitting Cersei yeah thats not cool but if I found out my wife had my twin bastards killed and their mother sold into slavery I might tend to look on her with less than loving eyes. I am not going to get into the rape thing. In the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar "Its a trap!".

If your first son was as shitty as Joffrey you might not want anything to do with him either.

Personally I think the most selfish dirty thing Robert ever did was getting Ned mixed up with Kings Landing and offering to marry Joffrey to Sansa. Robert knew Joffrey was a monster.

The whole Elia thing was Tywins doing. Tywin himself said Robert wouldn't have killed children.

And Balon, don't even get me started. That guy just sucked on so many levels. Not only was he a robbing raping pirate but he was also bad at it and delusional.

This was very well said.

[Lee-Sensei]

You need to add context to this. Theon had been captured by the Northmen after he murdered two of their princes. Death would have been a kindness.

That is not to say that he wished him dead if he got free of his captives.

Cats are not women. I know, mind boggling information.

Again, context is always good. The pre teenage Joffrey has grown up in a world were the men around him, especially his father, are always bragging about killing. Both animals and humans. This is not a world were they go to the supermarket to get their meat, the cooks would kill and butcher it themselves.

I dont think it's evil for a young child to blur the lines of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in a world like that. It is up to his parents to teach him, rather than beat him.

I love Themistocles, my cat, but had Joffey killed a pig in the same manner would their be the same uproar?

1) Not really. Balon treated Theon like shit the moment he got back and said he wanted him to die so he wouldn't get in Asha's way. Even if he thought they'd never give him up (the Boltons mind you... not Stark loyalists), he never entertained the idea. He wanted him out of the way for Asha. And all because the "wolves had made him theirs". Theon gave up half his life forr Balons mistakes and he through him away like so much trash.

2) Yes. He wished him dead. He says himself that he wanted him dead so he couldn't stand in Asha's way.

3) Animals feel pain. I know, mind boggling information.

4) I can't say this enough times. He cut open a pregnant cat and dug the babies out. Sure they kill animals. They also kill humans. If he'd done it to a pregnant woman... wouldn't we all say it was evil?

5) Everyone beats their children in this series. Even honorable Ned.

6) A pregnant one? Cutting it open to dig out the babies? I don't know about you, but I'd be bothered by it.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1) Not really. Balon treated Theon like shit the moment he got back

No, he didn't. His 20 year old son returned and he accepted him into the family even giving him a place of command despite having little experience with the Ironborn.

I'm not sure how you expected him to treat him, but he did not treat him like shit. He treated him like a member of the family.

and said he wanted him to die so he wouldn't get in Asha's way. Even if he thought they'd never give him up (the Boltons mind you... not Stark loyalists), he never entertained the idea. He wanted him out of the way for Asha. And all because the "wolves had made him theirs". Theon gave up half his life forr Balons mistakes and he through him away like so much trash.

Balon did not chose to send him to Winterfell, that choice was taken away from him.

2) Yes. He wished him dead. He says himself that he wanted him dead so he couldn't stand in Asha's way.

Not everything said is literal. Had Theon been infront of him Balon would not have tried to kill him. You are deliberately ignoring the context of the situation to make a very, very weak point.

3) Animals feel pain. I know, mind boggling information.

So is everyone in Westeros who kills an animal or human is evil? Or just children who are too young to no better?

4) I can't say this enough times. He cut open a pregnant cat and dug the babies out. Sure they kill animals. They also kill humans. If he'd done it to a pregnant woman... wouldn't we all say it was evil?

It was not a woman. You can keep saying it all you like, it does not make it any more valid.

In our own times there is a huge difference between a human and cat. In medieval times that gap would be even bigger. The Cat was not his pet, nor was it Roberts pet. It was an animal.

It was still a horrendous thing to do, but there is context to the situation. Mainly that Joffrey was 4-7 years of age and has a father constantly bragging about killing humans and animals

5) Everyone beats their children in this series. Even honorable Ned.

Not everybody, or at least we dont hear of everybody beating their young children and wives.

6) A pregnant one? Cutting it open to dig out the babies? I don't know about you, but I'd be bothered by it.

Of course I'd be bothered about it. I'm not sure which society loves cats more, ours or the ancient Egyptians.

George's world is neither.

How come you are bothered about Joffrey cutting up a pregnant cat but not by a six feet and six inches muscular man beating a 4-7 year old child? The fact that you can excuse one but the other is pretty weird.

[dylantaylor87]

That makes him a bad strategist, not a bad father.

Ned's actions led to Sansa being emotionally abused for years to come, Arya to be chased out of King's Landing and presumed dead (to then become a serial killer), and Robb to start a continent-wide war (which would later result in his and his men's deaths), is he a worse father than Balon?

Actually Ned had arranged for Sansa and Arya to be out of KL prior to his actions. Sansa told Cersei and Cersei reacted. Sansa's abuse and Arya's eventual murders are a result of Sansa and Cersei's actions, not poor planning or parenting on Ned's part.

As for the topic at hand, I tend to agree that Robert was ill-equipped to rule. His actions show a significant lack of understanding for long-term consequences, which is something that is extremely important in running a country, navigating a marriage, successful parenting, etc. I don't believe he meant to fail his wife, children, or realm. I honestly think he, like Jamie (as described by Tyrion), acts first and then considers the consequences. While that can make the difference between life or death in a battle, it does cause significant problems in all other aspects of his life.

ETA: correct spelling (autocorrect can be its own nightmare sometimes)

[Lee-Sensei]

No, he didn't. His 20 year old son returned and he accepted him into the family even giving him a place of command despite having little experience with the Ironborn.

I'm not sure how you expected him to treat him, but he did not treat him like shit. He treated him like a member of the family.

Balon did not chose to send him to Winterfell, that choice was taken away from him.

Not everything said is literal. Had Theon been infront of him Balon would not have tried to kill him. You are deliberately ignoring the context of the situation to make a very, very weak point.

So is everyone in Westeros who kills an animal or human is evil? Or just children who are too young to no better?

It was not a woman. You can keep saying it all you like, it does not make it any more valid.

In our own times there is a huge difference between a human and cat. In medieval times that gap would be even bigger. The Cat was not his pet, nor was it Roberts pet. It was an animal.

It was still a horrendous thing to do, but there is context to the situation. Mainly that Joffrey was 4-7 years of age and has a father constantly bragging about killing humans and animals

Not everybody, or at least we dont hear of everybody beating their young children and wives.

Of course I'd be bothered about it. I'm not sure which society loves cats more, ours or the ancient Egyptians.

George's world is neither.

How come you are bothered about Joffrey cutting up a pregnant cat but not by a six feet and six inches muscular man beating a 4-7 year old child? The fact that you can excuse one but the other is pretty weird.

1) One of the first things he said to Theon when he got back was that he was a whore. It wasn't "Hi son. I'm glad to have you back."

2) Nope.

3) No, but it happened because of his idiotic rebellion. Theon was paying for Balons crimes.

4) It's a very srong point actually. You're just twisting the facts to whitewash Balon and even Tywin. If you were going to arhue that Balon was good to Asha or any of Theons brothers I wouldn't say anything, but he trested Theon like shit. That's how the story was written.

5) The ones who cut open pregnant animals/women are.

6) It feels pain and the fact that it wasn't human is irrelevant. He cut open a pregnant cat. It's a shitty thing to do.

7) Did Joffrey ever hear Robert brag about killing? Let's ignore the fact that from the story, it didn't seem like Joff ws killing to impress Robert and he just wanted to see what was inside. Since Roberts such a bad father who's never around for his kids, when did Joff hear Robert telling these stories? Was it mentioned in the books?

8) Theon was hit for running down the stairs. Neds one of the best fathers in the series, so if he's doing it it seems a safe bet that most parents do it. Also, Robert didn't beat Cersei. He hit her once or twice (her words). She hit him to, but no one mentions it.

9) Again, beating suggests that it was more than once ahd theirs a good chance Robert did hold back. Given his size and strength, I'm sure if he wanted to he could have killed him. The difference is, the cat did nothing wrong and died. Joffrey did do something very wrong and didn't.

[Cladinator]

Not a great king but not a terrible one.

Not a great man but not a terrible one.

Robert was very far from perfect but as far as characters and kings in ASoIaF he was really pretty mild. I'm looking at him pretty objectively. I don't really care for the Baratheons all that much but I don't think he's even nearly as terrible as the OP or many other posters are saying.

To me, his biggest crime was leaving the crown in so much debt due to his frivolities.

[Beacon]

I wish that he left after the rebellion to start his own mercenary company.

He would've named it something badass, like 'the Paladins' for his awesome war-hammer.

Nothing's sadder than when someone's forced to do something they hate...

[Winter's Knight]

Checking on people sounds stalkerish. Also even if he did that how he could be sure that it was his child? The only way that he could know that for sure was if he had a harem.

Oh bullshit. He never checked on Meera did he?

[SnowShark]

One for the "he was a bad ruler" column (which I appreciate is not the same as him being a bad person) is - in my mind - his poor fiscal management. From AGOT:

"The Crown is more than six million gold pieces in debt"... "Ned was aghast. 'Aerys Targaryen left a treasury flowing with gold'..."Lord Arryn was a prudent man, but I fear that His Grace does not always listen to wise counsel"

I understand this is a modern viewpoint and that we don't get a lot of information about Westerosi taxation and welfare, but recklessness and negligence by leaders towards finance and their country's economy really irritates me. It's not violence but it can destroy a society just as effectively.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

I hear that a lot, but the Twins are messed up because they have been in an incestuous secret relationship since they were 15. All their problems stem that and the consequences of that relationship being made public and I don't really think you can pin that on a father's influence.

Tyrion is more difficult, but part of why he is so messed up is because of how the world views him. Westeros thinks of him as some kind of monster. I'm not sure a few hugs from Tywin would have changed that, though I could be wrong. Tywin has provided him a better upbringing that 99% of Westeros, he funded his lifestyle, he raised his banners when he was captured, he made him Hand and then gave him a position on the Small Council and arranged for him a hugely prestigious marriage.

Theon's issues have as much to do with Ned taking him then they do with Balon. Why is Ned, the man who actually raised him, not getting any of the blame?

Cersei certainly showed signs of being a pretty awful person prior to the incest. I think much of that is just Cersei starting out as kind of a bad seed, but Tywin's molding certainly didn't do her any favors.

Tyrion is messed up a good deal because of how his father views and treated him. How his father views Tyrion is partially shaped by the outside world, but a good parent hopefully wouldn't succumb to outside influences in such matters and let their personal pride overtake their parental duties. Tywin commanded enough respect that if he treated his son well it would certainly be immensely beneficial to his son and increase the likelihood of others seeing value and decreases the chances of Tyrion relying on alcohol and whores to fill the void and thus further sabotaging himself.

Tywin was an atrocious parent to Tyrion above all others. Tysha was absolutely intended as a lesson and punishment to Tyrion as long with a demonstration of elitism.

As for Theon, Ned probably doesn't get much of the blame because we see inside his head, know his thought processes, and are fairly comfortable with his general parenting style when that doesn't seem to be the norm in the story. We've also seen how all of his kids turned out that he has raised since birth prior to excessive external traumas weighing them down.

Then look at Theon. Theon may have turned out relatively fine if the major representative of his natural family which has immense importance in Westeros hadn't greeted him in such a negative manner when finally seeing him again despite Theon being sent away due to no fault of his own and almost entirely because of the person insulting him. Balon is just a stupid, prideful, and selfish person. Perhaps some of Theon's problems stem from the rapid cultural shift thrust upon him at an impressionable age, but I think Theon overall had a far better chance of turning out as a decent person outside of Balon's influence opposed to being within it, especially when that outside influence was Ned.

Iron Islands values, especially Balon's in particular, seem awful to bestow on a kid to have them turn out as decent people or even productive members of society. In a book filled with flawed people and archaic practices, the Iron Islands are almost a distilled form of these. People trying to justify how good Balon is as a father because of his relationship with Asha wouldn't say the same about Randyl Tarley because he had a good relationship with one of his kids despite generally being abusive to another. Given time I could easily see Balon being fairly malicious with Theon if he wasn't cut from the proper cloth to turn out the way he'd want his kids to turn out.

[Stormland's Fury]

Does anyone disagree?

Actually no, he was pretty bad. But he was self-loathing, that's his redeeming quality.

One positive point was that he at least seemed to care enough about Mya Stone to want her to bring her to court. Possibly he didn't even really meet the other bastards because they had to stay as far away from Cersei as possible. So his indifference might not be 100% his fault.

Another "good" quality he had, was that he was fully aware of all the bad points you mentioned and knew he was a shit king himself.

As a sidenote: Joffrey was an ass, but how hard did Robert hit that kid that even Stannis and Cersei separately brought it up and were almost equally appalled?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Oh bullshit. He never checked on Meera did he?

He had no reason to check on Meera.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

One positive point was that he at least seemed to care enough about Mya Stone to want her to bring her to court. Possibly he didn't even really meet the other bastards because they had to stay as far away from Cersei as possible. So his indifference might not be 100% his fault.

Of course it was his fault. He is the King of Westeros, he could have acknowledged his bastards and had them fostered through out the realm. Lords would be begging to foster his children. He just couldn't be bothered.

Mya is no different. She was born a few years before he even married Cersei, so blaming her for his neglectful treatment is just making excuses for someone who was indifferent to his many, many children.

Look at the Florents, they made sure Edric was cared for, given the education of a noble unlike every other one of Roberts bastards who have been brought up as smallfolk.

[Stormland's Fury]

Of course it was his fault. He is the King of Westeros, he could have acknowledged his bastards and had them fostered through out the realm. Lords would be begging to foster his children. He just couldn't be bothered.

Mya is no different. She was born a few years before he even married Cersei, so blaming her for his neglectful treatment is just making excuses for someone who was indifferent to his many, many children.

Look at the Florents, they made sure Edric was cared for, given the education of a noble unlike every other one of Roberts bastards who have been brought up as smallfolk.

I think he only knew about Mya and Edric for sure. Mya had fond memories of him and to be fair he was pretty young then. None of those two seem to have particularly bad lives. Of course he doesn't really interact for them, but irrc there's no indication he didn't spent time with Edric on the few occasions he was visiting Storm's End (did he even do that?)

And Cersei is not to blame for his neglect but for why he doesn't see his children that often. Which probably makes it harder to connect to them in the first place.

Florents? Edric was a bastard born by two nobles, that's a different scenario. They shipped him off to Renly.

[Faydra]

Here's another vote for Bobby being a bad person and ruler.

[Theon'sSong]

Robert had no redeeming qualities

that's why he was portrayed as a fat slob

[Beacon]

He's the one who kept the realm from breaking down. Westeros has lots of inherent problems (knights are almost always evil, bastards get treated badly because of their birth, etc.). He and Jon Arryn kept the peace with Dorne and the Westerlands.

Some people said that Robert was greedy becuase he snatched the crown from the Targs, and forget that it was the Lannister bannerman (forgot his name) who confronts Jaime after Jaime killed Aerys2 that asks him whom to proclaim as king. That guy did it.

He let Dany and Vise live for 15~16 years and only plotted their deaths when they became a threat. And even then, he regretted sending assassins after them.

Also, don't forget, for all her stupidity, Cersei was able to get Robert killed quite easily. If a weak player like Cersei could cause his death, how would experienced players like Tywin and Varys react to any changes he made...

[Sullen]

1) Balon wished one of his kids dead.

There was nothing he could do at the time, Theon dug his own grave especially considering how he acted with Asha when Balon sent her to retrieve him, and Theon getting out of the way of Asha was objectively a good thing for her claim. Balon is a hard man, not very emotional.

2) So if he cut open a pregnant woman, but didn't know any better it wouldn't be evil?

I'm afraid I don't adhere completely to Singer's view on morality. Animals are animals, humans are humans.

To harm an animal is bad, but to harm a human is several times worse.

3) Given what GRRM may have planned for Shireen, I don't think he's gets to judge. ;)

Broken, flame-happy Stannis is not the same person he was several years ago.

4) And Theon did? So would you call Ned and any one else who hits their kids in this series evil?

No, Theon didn't either, but people didn't worry about Theon dying after Ned chastised him... unlike Joffrey.

[Stormland's Fury]

Some people said that Robert was greedy becuase he snatched the crown from the Targs, and forget that it was the Lannister bannerman (forgot his name) who confronts Jaime after Jaime killed Aerys2 that asks him whom to proclaim as king. That guy did it.

Not to forget that some council in King's Landing decided he should be king while he was still away in the Riverlands. He was crowned when he finally entered the city after the Lannisters already took it.