Lerxst Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Not having read the books yet, was this part of GRRM's writing or was it the show's writers that wrote his story line for this season?Either way, it makes me shake my head. He's hyped as being this great military commander since season 1 and people refer back to his prowess and experience over the seasons, then... this season.I'm not a medieval military commander, but I've been studying medieval history, architecture, etc since I was 10. And there's no way even the lowliest peasant would make the basic, elementary mistakes he does. So who would be to blame for this? Would it be GRRM's lack of research, D&D's lack of research/poor writing, or a failed attempt to show us how obsessed Stannis has become? Anyone and everyone living in that era would and should know a larger force would not stand by idly in a castle and let the enemy besiege them at will and it's not exactly like Winterfell has fertile farmlands outside its gates that were vital for its survival that a siege would have damaged in some way. A "brilliant military commander" such as Stannis would and should have prepared for an assault the second they showed up. I can see Tyrion using the surprise of Wild Fire earlier and Tywin flanking them from behind as valid mistakes at Blackwater, but the entire Winterfell scene just completely negates any of the stories we've been told abut Stannis' superior tactical mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam with Hooters Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Yeah, the Boltons used a CLASSICpincer attack. TV!Stannis's arc and characterization has veered so far off course compared to the books (through ADWD anyway) that you can safely assume Book!Stannis is smarter and far, far more capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam with Hooters Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Yeah, the Boltons used a CLASSICpincer attack. TV!Stannis's arc and characterization has veered so far off course compared to the books (through ADWD anyway) that you can safely assume Book!Stannis is smarter and far, far more capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam with Hooters Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Oops, double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max of the Magic Friends Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Not having read the books yet, was this part of GRRM's writing or was it the show's writers that wrote his story line for this season? Either way, it makes me shake my head. He's hyped as being this great military commander since season 1 and people refer back to his prowess and experience over the seasons, then... this season. I'm not a medieval military commander, but I've been studying medieval history, architecture, etc since I was 10. And there's no way even the lowliest peasant would make the basic, elementary mistakes he does. So who would be to blame for this? Would it be GRRM's lack of research, D&D's lack of research/poor writing, or a failed attempt to show us how obsessed Stannis has become? Anyone and everyone living in that era would and should know a larger force would not stand by idly in a castle and let the enemy besiege them at will and it's not exactly like Winterfell has fertile farmlands outside its gates that were vital for its survival that a siege would have damaged in some way. A "brilliant military commander" such as Stannis would and should have prepared for an assault the second they showed up. I can see Tyrion using the surprise of Wild Fire earlier and Tywin flanking them from behind as valid mistakes at Blackwater, but the entire Winterfell scene just completely negates any of the stories we've been told abut Stannis' superior tactical mind. Rest assured, this is entirely a show-made creation. Stannis' entire northern campaign is completely different in the books: both might end with him marching on Winterfell, but almost everything else - from the people in his army to the actions he takes prior to the siege - are either gutted, altered past recognition, or removed entirely. Both might have Stannis' army trapped in a storm, but it's very clear in the books that he has a plan of attack against the Boltons, and furthermore that it is very likely he will win. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to spoil it, considering that you haven't read the books yet, but... The army of both Southerners and Northerners who join the cause out of gratitude - meaning there are no mercenaries to jump ship - that is led by Stannis is currently holed up in a small crofter's village, which is bordered on two sides by frozen lakes, one of which has an island in the center with a weirwood tree. Stannis has had a fire burning in a tall watchtower day and night, allowing people to see it for miles around. Meanwhile, snow has covered the lakes, and he has been ordering men to drill holes into them to the point that they are no longer stable, all while the snow has covered them so completely that one cannot even tell that they are lakes at all anymore. Theon Greyjoy has just arrived in Stannis' camp after escaping Winterfell, and given Stannis details about who is attacking him and when, including the fact that the commander of the forces is a hotheaded and overly aggressive idiot. The other commander, Wyman Manderly, is planning to betray the Boltons and Freys at the opportune moment and join Stannis (or so he claims). Finally, Stannis just learned from a traitorous maester that the attack is coming within hours, meaning that he will not be taken by surprise. What all of this points to is that the attacking forces will arrive, charging at the watchtower fire without realizing that the ground they are walking on is literally thin ice. Their troops are largely cavalry, meaning that they will quickly go onto the lakes and then plunge in, drowning or freezing the lot of them. At the same time, the Manderly troops will probably take the opportunity to betray their hated allies and slaughter whatever ones manage to escape the ice, meaning that Stannis will have won the day and greatly increased the size of his army with little issue. So, there are no sellswords to desert him, and he has pointedly refused to burn anyone, meaning that there also is no reason for his existing troops to turn on him either. Not only does Stannis not make elementary mistakes, but he adapts to his environment brilliantly to likely achieve a crushing victory in extremely poor conditions and poorer odds. So yeah, book Stannis as written by GRRM is a great military commander as hyped. Show Stannis as written by incompetent hacks with a nonsensical hatred of a great character, on the other hand, is portrayed as a doofus. The blame is entirely on the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Mudd Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 #Justice4Stannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwight Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 He was indeed portrayed as completely incompetent in the finale (and earlier too, but at least less so), which is completely different from the books. He has a small force all of which he marches out in the open in the most vulnerable position for no reason, and is then caught by surprise by horsemen coming from the very castle he's attempting to besiege? :ack: I bet Sansa would have come up with a better plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I hear they are merging Sansa and Stannis in Season 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Completely D&D in the book Stannis hasn't burned anyone let alone his daughter, he has Northerns like the Umbers in his camp so no "20 good men" could sneak up on him, plus he has a likely ally marching in the Bolten/Frey army ready to join him so yeah that atrocity that was last night came from D&D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khorkalba Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I found it perfectly plausible that he would act so reckless and stupid in a state of despair. He's just burned his daughter alive only to have half his army abandon him, followed by Melisandre. On top of that, his wife has killed herself. He probably wants to believe so desperately that this all wasn't for nothing that his mind is making poor judgements and ignoring how hopeless the situation really is. It would be very unrealistic even for tactical genius like Stannis to remain composed in such circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Patroclo Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I found it perfectly plausible that he would act so reckless and stupid in a state of despair. He's just burned his daughter alive only to have half his army has abandon him, followed by Melisandre. On top of that, his wife has killed herself. He probably wants to believe so desperately that this all wasn't for nothing that his mind is making poor judgements and ignoring how hopeless the situation really is. It would be very unrealistic even for tactical genius like Stannis to remain composed in such circumstances. None of his choices from the very beginning seemed ``smart'', and all of them were taken in a state of despair. If he didn't have the plot-shield of magic, he would be dead a thousand times by now. And Renly would sit on the Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toffeejay Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I wasn't that shocked the burning scene because I was still in disbelief at the "Dance of the Dragons. What's that?" and "don't understand why they'd call it a dance" comments in the previous scene.His one victory over the wildlings even looks more stupid now that the Bolton's did exactly the same as him, except they scensibly attacked once he'd moved into the open while he attacked in the forest which would have diminished his cavalry avantage. Seeing that his storyline doesn't really deviate much from the books, its laughable that he is the furthest from his book counterpart, even more than the likes of Jaime or Sansa who are taking on other roles in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chandl34 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Book Stannis doesn't take direct part in combat, so at least the show makes him look more heroic (stupid) by throwing him in the front lines every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gannicus Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 It takes some real doing by the writers to spoil a character while getting an A+ acting job from Stephen Dillane. D&D completely butchered this character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelsey094 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 They made his entire storyline pointless.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Stannis, in the books was always a buffoon, the type of man that could never do anything right, even when he tried so very hard. I've always wondered why he had such a following up here, and am glad it ended up the way it did on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grissom Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Rest assured, this is entirely a show-made creation. Stannis' entire northern campaign is completely different in the books: both might end with him marching on Winterfell, but almost everything else - from the people in his army to the actions he takes prior to the siege - are either gutted, altered past recognition, or removed entirely. Both might have Stannis' army trapped in a storm, but it's very clear in the books that he has a plan of attack against the Boltons, and furthermore that it is very likely he will win. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to spoil it, considering that you haven't read the books yet, but... The army of both Southerners and Northerners who join the cause out of gratitude - meaning there are no mercenaries to jump ship - that is led by Stannis is currently holed up in a small crofter's village, which is bordered on two sides by frozen lakes, one of which has an island in the center with a weirwood tree. Stannis has had a fire burning in a tall watchtower day and night, allowing people to see it for miles around. Meanwhile, snow has covered the lakes, and he has been ordering men to drill holes into them to the point that they are no longer stable, all while the snow has covered them so completely that one cannot even tell that they are lakes at all anymore. Theon Greyjoy has just arrived in Stannis' camp after escaping Winterfell, and given Stannis details about who is attacking him and when, including the fact that the commander of the forces is a hotheaded and overly aggressive idiot. The other commander, Wyman Manderly, is planning to betray the Boltons and Freys at the opportune moment and join Stannis (or so he claims). Finally, Stannis just learned from a traitorous maester that the attack is coming within hours, meaning that he will not be taken by surprise. What all of this points to is that the attacking forces will arrive, charging at the watchtower fire without realizing that the ground they are walking on is literally thin ice. Their troops are largely cavalry, meaning that they will quickly go onto the lakes and then plunge in, drowning or freezing the lot of them. At the same time, the Manderly troops will probably take the opportunity to betray their hated allies and slaughter whatever ones manage to escape the ice, meaning that Stannis will have won the day and greatly increased the size of his army with little issue. So, there are no sellswords to desert him, and he has pointedly refused to burn anyone, meaning that there also is no reason for his existing troops to turn on him either. Not only does Stannis not make elementary mistakes, but he adapts to his environment brilliantly to likely achieve a crushing victory in extremely poor conditions and poorer odds. So yeah, book Stannis as written by GRRM is a great military commander as hyped. Show Stannis as written by incompetent hacks with a nonsensical hatred of a great character, on the other hand, is portrayed as a doofus. The blame is entirely on the latter. Very well put together, OP and anyone else that didn't read the books should read this post, so they understand why book readers are upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grissom Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Stannis, in the books was always a buffoon, the type of man that could never do anything right, even when he tried so very hard. I've always wondered why he had such a following up here, and am glad it ended up the way it did on the show. You forgot to turn Comic Sans on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bibigon Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Rest assured, this is entirely a show-made creation. Stannis' entire northern campaign is completely different in the books: both might end with him marching on Winterfell, but almost everything else - from the people in his army to the actions he takes prior to the siege - are either gutted, altered past recognition, or removed entirely. Both might have Stannis' army trapped in a storm, but it's very clear in the books that he has a plan of attack against the Boltons, and furthermore that it is very likely he will win. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to spoil it, considering that you haven't read the books yet, but... Let me ask you: it seems like from B&W's comments about GRRM telling them about the burning of Shireen, they're still getting pretty major plot points from him. How do you reconcile this with the idea that Stannis will win the Battle of Winterfell in the books? That would seem to be a bigger deviation than anything we've seen before - bigger than cutting out entire characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eucratides_Megas Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Let me ask you: it seems like from B&W's comments about GRRM telling them about the burning of Shireen, they're still getting pretty major plot points from him. How do you reconcile this with the idea that Stannis will win the Battle of Winterfell in the books? That would seem to be a bigger deviation than anything we've seen before - bigger than cutting out entire characters. Ser, haven't you heard? The D's lie. ----Book Roose Bolton wishing he had Show Ramsay "Batman" Bolton for a son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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