Stannis - who wrote his part (season 5)

[Weirdo]

Not having read the books yet, was this part of GRRM's writing or was it the show's writers that wrote his story line for this season?

Either way, it makes me shake my head. He's hyped as being this great military commander since season 1 and people refer back to his prowess and experience over the seasons, then... this season.

I'm not a medieval military commander, but I've been studying medieval history, architecture, etc since I was 10. And there's no way even the lowliest peasant would make the basic, elementary mistakes he does.

So who would be to blame for this? Would it be GRRM's lack of research, D&D's lack of research/poor writing, or a failed attempt to show us how obsessed Stannis has become?

Anyone and everyone living in that era would and should know a larger force would not stand by idly in a castle and let the enemy besiege them at will and it's not exactly like Winterfell has fertile farmlands outside its gates that were vital for its survival that a siege would have damaged in some way. A "brilliant military commander" such as Stannis would and should have prepared for an assault the second they showed up.

I can see Tyrion using the surprise of Wild Fire earlier and Tywin flanking them from behind as valid mistakes at Blackwater, but the entire Winterfell scene just completely negates any of the stories we've been told abut Stannis' superior tactical mind.

Do yourself a favor and read the books. If you found this episode clunky, wait until you get a load of some of the other changes the show has made in order to save time and effort.

The show put Stannis on this simplistic villain arc, which required all these implausible and inconsistent things that you mention. This whole approach of Stannis being a bad boy then being punished - that's not what George's writing is all about. You never feel like he's telling you what's right or wrong, or telling you how to feel about anything. That's why it's such effective storytelling - despite the magic, and the dragons, and the walking dead people, it still feels real, because just like the world we live in, there's no friendly narrator holding our hand, telling us what it means, and making sure that injustice in punished and the good guys find happiness.

The show runners tend to assume the we, the viewers, are not very smart, and can't handle complexity of any kind. They assume we would get confused if they introduce too many characters - instead they shoehorn existing characters into plots where they just don't fit, rendering the story ridiculous. But they don't care, because again, they assume we are stupid, and easily distracted by blood and sex. They obviously think we care more about emotion than logic. The problem is, when they throw logic out the window, the emotion stops working, because if the story doesn't make sense, and we detect the storyteller's voice telling us what to think, then it stops feeling real, and thus it's impossible to care as much as we should about the characters' frustrations and losses.

If you would prefer a writer who assumes you are intelligent enough to follow a complicated story that requires keeping more than a handful of characters in your head, a writer who respects your right to draw your own conclusions about ethics and morality, forget these guys; try George R. R. Martin.

[Kris370]

Reading this has just hit upon something for me, not sure if this is the right place to discuss it at length or if I should start a new thread, but it is about Stannis & his tv story differing from the book so I'll elaborate a little:

I've seen in a few places today people talking about the Shireen burning and primarily there are 2 arguments:

• Stannis would never do this, she may die but in another way, or if a burning happens it'll be someone else's doing
  
• Shireen is far away, if Stannis does do it, it'll be after Winterfell(win or lose) when he returns to the wall, possibly for some bonus when fighting The Others
  

Taking a little from each of these, I wonder if after another burning of her tea leaves, Mel & Selyse would burn the girl behind Stannis' back at the wall to try and help him in the battle further south. Maybe this could also be his undoing, I don't know exactly how R'hllor works, if it even grants bad luck, if at all it's granted Stannis any favour and it all hasn't just been coincidence(We've seen his favour more substantially with Thorros so I'm not saying it doesn't happen). But maybe this would be the last straw and despite his favourable looking cicumstances, causes him to lose at winterfell, and/or contribute to Mel realising she's mistaken and he's not AAR.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Ok. Personally I think that Stannis is probably going to go out in a quite similar way in twow. Yes, he might win the battle for winterfell but later he will indeed betray and kill shireen. I think it explains a lot of what has been done with his character in the show.

Imo, GRRM always had in mind that this is where his arc would go - at its moral peak at the wall, with his two great moral troughs being his murders of Renly and Shireen. It might be that GRRM hasn't yet figured out how to get there, or he might change his mind. But I believe that he did tell D and D this during their pre season 2 meeting and that the showrunners have been planning this to be his end since that time. I don't honestly see what the difference is

Between him birning his daughter to death now or later - it's still a moral event horizon.

I also rather hope that brienne gets a chance to confront him. She deserves that closure, regardless of how misguided Renly was. TBH a man who would burn his daughter doesn't deserve to be king, regardless of what else he might do. And I'm saying that as a huge fan of the character in both book and show.

I'm also a fan of Daenerys and if she does go full villain like Stannis did, I will be sad but I will accept it. I certainly didn't expect this and it was heartbreaking - but humans are capable of doing great evil - even ones we otherwise admire.

[Borodin]

I'm surprised they didn't turn Stannis into a pedophile/child-rapist in Season 5 so that his death would sit better with blood-lusting audiences.

[aFeastForDragons]

^He burnt a child. The audience wanted him dead much more than Trant.

[Hodor's Dragon]

He already sent his main fleet through a chokepoint without scouting ahead first, so I never thought he was a brilliant military commander. He was primarily known for withstanding a siege, and that primarily requires stubbornness, a quality Stannis undoubtedly has in spades. Military prowess isn't really a prime requirement to survive a siege.

But also, the OP begs the questions of whether Stannis knew he was facing a superior force, whether the superior force had recently got there, if they did, when and how, if Stannis didn't know, why not, and more.

[SerDesmondHume]

The greatest military commander in Westeros:

Has no guards on watch so 20 shirtless men can sneak in and set up trails of oil to burn all his siege weapons and food stores.

500 sellswords are able to ride off in the night with 500 horses even though they are stranded in a snowstorm.

A man who ate rats and books for a year when under siege burns his daughter/heir after a few weeks in the snow.

2-3000 more sellswords ride off again with no objections and ALL the horses.

Mel rides off. With a horse despite their being none.

Walks several days to Winterfell without any provisions.

Doesn't see a huge force of calvary riding against him until the last couple of hundred meters.

Dear god they really humiliated him on the show. Not to mention his wife leaves him to commit suicide and he a beheaded off screen by Brienne in the name of the rightful king "Renly". They had her teleport to winterfell and squat outside looking for a candle for a season just so they could humiliate Stannis.

A little part of me died inside when I had to explain to people Renly wasn't the rightful king. Knowing how they "have" to turn Asha into Yara and stuff like that it seems pretty deliberate that they wanted to confuse show watchers so that they'd hate Stannis even more.

[Weirdo]

Dear god they really humiliated him on the show. Not to mention his wife leaves him to commit suicide and he a beheaded off screen by Brienne in the name of the rightful king "Renly". They had her teleport to winterfell and squat outside looking for a candle for a season just so they could humiliate Stannis.

A little part of me died inside when I had to explain to people Renly wasn't the rightful king. Knowing how they "have" to turn Asha into Yara and stuff like that it seems pretty deliberate that they wanted to confuse show watchers so that they'd hate Stannis even more.

It's just like what they did with Ellaria. They have to decide who's 'good' and who's 'bad', so they can tell the simplistic story they think we are smart enough to understand. They are afraid of George's amoral universe, where people act mainly out of self-interest; perhaps they think it resembles our own world too much. Luckily for them, they have a guide in GRRM; unluckily for us, they have decided to ignore him.

Rant over - as to the topic at hand, given they way they conflate characters, I suspect this possibility:

It's possible that whatever Asha is conniving by asking Stannis to execute Theon by the weirwood tree will result in his death.

The reason I think so is the fact that ShowBrienne killed Stannis. The show runners have skipped Asha's plot, but the idea of a woman killing Stannis probably lodged in their heads, and they had Brienne available after skipping the Riverlands and LSH, so...

The ravens also seem to like the idea.

[pettes]

Stannis has never been a good military commander

[Marcus Agrippa]

It just show's you how bad they write reading some of the comments in this thread. I never have had any respect for hollywood. Now I have less.

[Chad Brick]

Stannis's end was literally the most disheartening thing I have ever watched on television - character assassination upon character assassination upon character assassination

1: TV Stannis was an idiot commander, allowing devastating night raids and mutinies, while essentially suiciding his remaining forces in an unwinnable fight. Book Stannis is a wily commander, winning allies, sniffing out plots and counter plots, and about to win the first big skirmish of the war.

2: TV Stannis killed his daughter. Book Stannis might, but given that she is not there to be sacrificed, this could only happen after battles had already been fought, if it at all. Even then....

3: TV Stannis was RIGHT to burn his daughter. He rationally and honestly believed he was the chosen one. What's one girl when faced with a zombie apocalypse? Doubly so given that she's probably dead in the short term either way, and certainly dead if the zombies come. The fact that he was willing to sacrifice his own daughter to save the world is heroism, not cowardice. However....

4: The showrunners all but dropped the Stannis-as-Azor-Ahai element, causing most viewers (and even major reviewers) to miss it. Almost every review I read indicated that the author believed Stannis killed Shireen so he could pursue the crown, not save the world. The former is contemptible, the latter is heroic. It is so contemptible that many reviewers hinted that they wanted Ramsay to win!

5: TV Stannis fell into despair. That's not the Stannis of the books. The least he could have done is pulled a Denethor, offed himself and told his remaining faithful troops to die as they will, rather than forcing them to commit mass suicide. Better yet, he could have sent them to the Wall, which really needs good men. Many would die on the way but some is better than none. The real Stannis wouldn't have given up like that.

6: Did it really have to be Brienne? Really? At least she is now a Kingslayer just like Jaime. Well, except he actually had a justifiable reason for his actions, rather than merely petty revenge for a long-dead traitor. It's going to be really annoying when she kills Ramsay and his hounds early next season. What's next on her kill list? Godzilla? Galactus?

It is interesting that Stannis seems like he is going to win the battle of the north in the books, yet he clearly failed on TV. I take this to mean that it really doesn't matter who wins, as some other force (Littlefinger and the armies of the Vale, or the Walkers and their army) are going to sweep away the winner either way. In fact, if it is indeed LF making he play he talked about in E6, Stannis HAS to win in the books, as he would have no justifiable excuse to attack the north if the Boltons win (and without a request from the crown to do such, it is hard to see how anyone in the Vale would listen to him).

[RedShirt47]

Up until Stannis left the Wall the show was close enough to the books to not annoy me, it wasn't perfect but it was close enough.

Then it's like they decided they just didn't want that storyline anymore and thought, let's end this now so we can concentrate on other stories next season.

This is probably my main disappointment this season.

The Sand Snakes were bad but I wasn't expecting greatness there. I was expecting something from the Stannis storyline especially after he burnt his daughter. There was no pay off for that sacrifice.

[Desert Fox]

Book stannis, in order to win, has to fight at least two battles. A battle at crofters' village with the Freys and then sieging winterfell. We know he's snowed in, out of food, and desperate.

We know Mel, Shareen, and Selyse are at the wall right? Well a Giant is going wild, Jon just got Caesar'd, and the wilidings might fight the NW.

I really don't think it's impossible for Stannis to burn Shareen as a sacrifice to the lord of light before trying to siege winterfell. Having Mel and Selyse do it behind Stannis's back is a cop out IMO.

[draevan13]

I'm still baffled they tried to fit Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons into 1 season. I know, the actors' contracts were up, but making 2 seasons instead of 1 would have made this season much better. As it is it feels awkward and rushed, especially the finale.

Still bums me out to know Stannis is gonna die in Winds of Winter, though :( (assuming he died in the show, we don't see his death and unlike Kit Harrington, Stephen Dillane hasn't said "Dead, I'm not coming back next season", so there's still a bit of hope).

[WSmith84]

Book stannis, in order to win, has to fight at least two battles. A battle at crofters' village with the Freys and then sieging winterfell. We know he's snowed in, out of food, and desperate.

We know Mel, Shareen, and Selyse are at the wall right? Well a Giant is going wild, Jon just got Caesar'd, and the wilidings might fight the NW.

I really don't think it's impossible for Stannis to burn Shareen as a sacrifice to the lord of light before trying to siege winterfell. Having Mel and Selyse do it behind Stannis's back is a cop out IMO.

The thing is, if Book Stannis does burn Shireen, it is likely to be under very different circumstances. And the circumstances matter as to whether the narrative makes sense.

Personally, I think Mel doing it behind Stannis' back is more poetic. Stannis consorted with Melisandre, knowing that she was a fanatic. He accepted her cause and her methods; he was prepared to burn his nephew for her magic. To have her betray him and murder his only child... That would be powerful, I think.

[Cas Stark]

Book stannis, in order to win, has to fight at least two battles. A battle at crofters' village with the Freys and then sieging winterfell. We know he's snowed in, out of food, and desperate.

We know Mel, Shareen, and Selyse are at the wall right? Well a Giant is going wild, Jon just got Caesar'd, and the wilidings might fight the NW.

I really don't think it's impossible for Stannis to burn Shareen as a sacrifice to the lord of light before trying to siege winterfell. Having Mel and Selyse do it behind Stannis's back is a cop out IMO.

I don't see how that works logistically. Shireen is at the wall, how would Stannis burn her before he sieges WF? He's not going to go back to the wall, and I find it very unlikely he sends word to 'burn my daughter by XX' so I win the battle.

If he is involved, then it has to be after Winterfell and related to the Others. I'm not sure it's a cop out, Mel has access to Shireen because of Stannis, he is the one who has given her privilege and power, he already knows about her obsession with king's blood. Witchcraft is the sword with no hilt...Stannis thinks he can control Mel and use her crazy for his own ends, but it may turn out that was wrong.

[TwiceBorn]

What I believe is that Stannis got out of hand and totally owned GRRM as he was writing the book. Such things happen to writers sometimes. The more George tried to make Stannis look bad the more badass he became. In the end George had to resort to some really low tricks like making Stannis Party look like NSDAP but this only made his character better because we all know he despises that lot.

We are getting hinted all the time that Stannis is fake AA, that his cause is doomed, that he is doomed, but the more hints the more we hope him to win by one of the most unexpected twists ever. However since he is not a Stark nor Danny, nor even a POW then we are somehow ready to accept his ultimate failure - but not until he overcomes all odds and accomplishes his impossible goal. This is why many fans expect Stannis to sit on the Iron Throne even if it is for a moment - before being abandoned by everyone and deposed by Danny. That is why we are somehow ready to accept him burning his only child - but not before a long buildup justifying the scene for example - being desperate to have his own dragons to fight Others or other Dragons. Yet it is equally possible to us that Stannis might ultimately fail because of his lack of integrity, that caused much of his life's regrets: he might not be able to burn his daughter just as he was not able to turn on his brother Robert even though it was his duty to the (Mad) King.

The question what does Stannis regret more: backing Robert or killing Renly is one of the key questions to the character in the books.

Now the D&D failed to understand all that and just fucked it all up. It's like GRRM told them: "I intended Stannis to be less cool and burn his own child in the book". So they almost utterly ruined that character, made him a total looser, used the bits of the plot that have been revealed to increase the shock value and pinned the blame back on GRRM by claiming that it is all in a book (supposedly delivering nasty spoiler).

Well book fans already know that none of this is in the book and it is impossible to happen by now. The moment Stannis leaves the Wall without a word of advice from Jon, the show splits from the books into pretty shitty alternative universe. Which is good in a sense that GRRM will certainly see how shitty is the outcome of some plot devices introduced by D&D and makes sure none of this happens.

GRRM based Stannis on Richard III, D&D on Mackbeth who was based on Richard III and this tells us a lot.

[Wavey Sauce]

D and D dropped the ball so hard with Stannis, it is a shame. Such a great complex character, and like him or not any book reader knows they did a bad job.

Sucks to because they picked the perfect actor to play him imo

[DraculaAD1972]

Sorry but no. I disliked Stannis in the books but show Stannis is awesome. D and D's depiction is easier to like. Book Stannis has little to no appeal until the WoW chapter when he suddenly becomes more awesome than show Stannis, but only for one chapter. If book Stannis burns Shireen then its over.

[cthulhu]

That shit barely made sense in the show...

I will burn my copies of the books, if GRRM adjusts his writing to adapt to the show.