thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: But GRRM has only ever had more control over the character of Stannis in one episode and that was at the BW episode He was a writing consultant on seasons 1-4 and as you have made clear, he is able to change things he is unhappy with like Talisa. 7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: GRRM doesn't complain in public about any of the characters on the show Yes he does. You provided the evidence. 7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: and I was talking about the rumor that he allegedly wasn't happy about the show was said in private. He didn't blog about that And yet no rumors of him being unhappy about Stannis. NONE WHATSOEVER. 7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: No Im guessing he's not happy about it but he refrains from being publicly angry about it. lol 7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: My view of Stannis is that he's a good guy same as GRRM's A good guy who murdered his brother, murdered his father-in-law and was willing to murder his nephew. That is pretty much in line with the 'good guy' he is in the Show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: He was a writing consultant on seasons 1-4 and as you have made clear, he is able to change things he is unhappy with like Talisa. Yes he does. You provided the evidence. And yet no rumors of him being unhappy about Stannis. NONE WHATSOEVER. lol A good guy who murdered his brother, murdered his father-in-law and was willing to murder his nephew. That is pretty much in line with the 'good guy' he is in the Show. Um, but he didn't change Talisa? He just suggested they change her name since he was nothing like Jeyne from the books and Dumb and Dumber ok'd Um, what evidence? I just told you he refrains from criticizing the show. The stuff about the rape is something big enough to warrant him talking about it but he doesn't crificize the show in those posts Eh? He didn't nursed his father in law. He executed him for treason and he wasn't willing to murder his nephew. He stops just before he crosses that line although I think he was about to if not for Davos speaking up. And I already said his murder of Renly is unintentional. Okay let me re-say that. I and GRRM both think Stannis is a moral man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: Um, but he didn't change Talisa? He just suggested they change her name since he was nothing like Jeyne from the books and Dumb and Dumber ok'd Which is a change, is it not? They was going to call her Jeyne and he made them change it. Do you really not understand how that is a change? 19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: Um, what evidence? I just told you he refrains from criticizing the show. The stuff about the rape is something big enough to warrant him talking about it but he doesn't crificize the show in those posts But he does, you gave examples. 19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: Eh? He didn't nursed his father in law. lol who said he nursed him? 19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: He executed him for treason No, he was making peace negotiations while Stannis was sulking. That is what Hands do, they negotiate with the voice of the King. Stannis had given him that position. 19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: and he wasn't willing to murder his nephew. Davos thinks he was. 19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: He stops just before he crosses that line although I think he was about to if not for Davos speaking up. Yup, I agree he would have murdered his nephew. Stannis loves murdering family members. 19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: And I already said his murder of Renly is unintentional. lol Hardly. 19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: Okay let me re-say that. I and GRRM both think Stannis is a moral man. I believe that Stannis thinks he is a moral man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 34 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: He was a writing consultant on seasons 1-4 and as you have made clear, he is able to change things he is unhappy with like Talisa. Yes he does. You provided the evidence. And yet no rumors of him being unhappy about Stannis. NONE WHATSOEVER. lol A good guy who murdered his brother, murdered his father-in-law and was willing to murder his nephew. That is pretty much in line with the 'good guy' he is in the Show. That's not accurate. The issue was the character had fuck all to do with Jeyne Westerling, so Martin asked them to change the name, hence Dr Talisa Medicine Woman. But that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 19 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: Which is a change, is it not? They was going to call her Jeyne and he made them change it. Do you really not understand how that is a change? But he does, you gave examples. lol who said he nursed him? No, he was making peace negotiations while Stannis was sulking. That is what Hands do, they negotiate with the voice of the King. Stannis had given him that position. Davos thinks he was. Yup, I agree he would have murdered his nephew. Stannis loves murdering family members. lol Hardly. I believe that Stannis thinks he is a moral man. It's a change that GRRM didn't force on them. It was a suggestion by him that they okay'd. If he could force decisions on them then Talisa wouldn't exist He doesn't criticize them in the examples I gave you Davos also sees it as treason as he doesn't argue the point with Stannis GRRM says that Stannis is a moral man. Please try to argue with the word of the author Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 4 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: It's a change that GRRM didn't force on them. It was a suggestion by him that they okay'd. If he could force decisions on them then Talisa wouldn't exist So he is an active part of the writing process. Good to know. 4 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: He doesn't criticize them in the examples I gave you Sure he does. Yet not a peep about Stannis. Pretty conclusive. 4 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: Davos also sees it as treason as he doesn't argue the point with Stannis Davos also thought Stannis cutting his finegers off for saving him during a siege was fair. 4 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: GRRM says that Stannis is a moral man. Please try to argue with the word of the author Does he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: So he is an active part of the writing process. Good to know. Sure he does. Yet not a peep about Stannis. Pretty conclusive. Davos also thought Stannis cutting his finegers off for saving him during a siege was fair. Does he? But he's not in control as evidenced by the fact that Talisa exists. Please quote where he complains abornthe show. It is fair though. A good deed does not wash out the bad. Our own damn laws acknowledge that And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis boom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: But he's not in control as evidenced by the fact that Talisa exists. Please quote where he complains abornthe show. It is fair though. A good deed does not wash out the bad. Our own damn laws acknowledge that And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis boom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 14 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: But he's not in control as evidenced by the fact that Talisa exists. Name change means he has some control, being a writing consultant means par of the tealm. Quote Please quote where he complains abornthe show. I took your word for it. Quote It is fair though. A good deed does not wash out the bad. Our own damn laws acknowledge that And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis boom Sorry to play the Godwin card but Hitler was pretty righteous in his views on Jews. It is pretty clear in the wording that righteous is about his focus, rather than being a good person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: Sorry to play the Godwin card but Hitler was pretty righteous in his views on Jews. What does that have to do with GRRM (his creator) thinking Stannis is a good guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: Hitler was pretty righteous in his views on Jews. Righteous and self-righteous aren't synonyms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 7 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: Name change means he has some control, being a writing consultant means par of the tealm. I took your word for it. Sorry to play the Godwin card but Hitler was pretty righteous in his views on Jews. It is pretty clear in the wording that righteous is about his focus, rather than being a good person. No because he says he suggested it. It's up to D & D to decide. See you have no evidence, lol. Um, what? Lol, you're obtuse. GRRM isn't using slang to say Stannis is a radical dude or that he's self righteous. That you even resort to that is kind of well....weak. And that's not what righteous means. Look up a dictionary. Righteous also means virtuous. If it was about his cause he would've said that Stannis' cause was righteous and not Stannis himself was a righteous man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Just now, Stannis is the man....nis said: What does that have to do with GRRM (his creator) thinking Stannis is a good guy? Where does he say that he is a good guy? He is righteous in his belief and focus on the Wall. That does not make him a good guy, the very fact that GRRM even points out "in spite of everything" shows that he quite clearly is not saying is a good man. Wow, you Stannis fanatics are pretty desperate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said: Where does he say that he is a good guy? He is righteous in his belief and focus on the Wall. That does not make him a good guy, the very fact that GRRM even points out "in spite of everything" shows that he quite clearly is not saying is a good man. Wow, you Stannis fanatics are pretty desperate. Righteous literally means virtuous. The synonym for righteous is also good so yeah he's calling him a good man despite have such an abrasive personality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: And that's not what righteous means. Look up a dictionary. Righteous also means virtuous. If it was about his cause he would've said that Stannis' cause was righteous and not Stannis himself was a righteous man. You really think that is what GRRM is saying there? That he is virtuous. That the man who murdered his brother, his father in law and was willing to murder his nephew is virtuous. LOL You guys are hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: Where does he say that he is a good guy? He is righteous in his belief and focus on the Wall. That does not make him a good guy, the very fact that GRRM even points out "in spite of everything" shows that he quite clearly is not saying is a good man. Wow, you Stannis fanatics are pretty desperate. When GRRM says "in spite of everything" he means despite being a hard ass who doesn't get along with people and killed his own brother he is a good guy who wants too do right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: You really think that is what GRRM is saying there? That he is virtuous. That the man who murdered his brother, his father in law and was willing to murder his nephew is virtuous. LOL You guys are hilarious. Righteous means virtuous. GRRM thinks he's justified in his actions. Take it up with GRRM but that's his and the canonical interpretation of Stannis. Like I said if it was about focus he would've said Stannis' cause is righteous rather than the man himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 4 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: Righteous literally means virtuous. The synonym for righteous is also good so yeah he's calling him a good man despite have such an abrasive personality Yes. The point he's making is that Stannis is one of the select few characters to realize that the war against the Others is more important than the war for the throne, and that understanding is what separates him from similarly contentious historical figures like the three mentioned, in that he's righteous for putting the realm ahead of the throne, despite his faults. Righteous meaning morally right, virtuous, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Just now, Lord_Ravenstone said: Righteous means virtuous. GRRM thinks he's justified in his actions. Take it up with GRRM but that's his and the canonical interpretation of Stannis. 2. morally justifiable or right, esp from one's own point of view: righteous indignation. Which fits, from Stannis' point of view he is certainly doing what he thinks is right. Thinking you are right, does not make you so, Thinking you are doing good does not mean you are. His focus on the Others is also what makes him righteous, but this is not GRRM calling him a good man (or a bad man). It takes someone of epic delusions to take that away from that quote. He may well think that murdering his brother was for good, that would be righteous, but that does not mean it is so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said: 2. morally justifiable or right, esp from one's own point of view: righteous indignation. Which fits, from Stannis' point of view he is certainly doing what he thinks is right. Thinking you are right, does not make you so, Thinking you are doing good does not mean you are. His focus on the Others is also what makes him righteous, but this is not GRRM calling him a good man (or a bad man). It takes someone of epic delusions to take that away from that quote. He may well think that murdering his brother was for good, that would be righteous, but that does not mean it is so. I like how you keep going back to Renly while completely ignoring that 1) Renly was planning on doing the same and wasn't losing any sleep over it and 2) Stannis wasn't truly aware of what he had done til later in the story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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