New York Times review

[Hiram McDrogon]

A drop in quality, and I'm glad that some publication actually had the courage to say it instead of posting an article on whether or not Jon Snow is actually dead or not. Those other articles cannot be called news or a critique or a "review", they can only be classified as "mindless promotion"

Slate and Vox and Vanity Fair and the Washington Post have all had reasonable critiques pointing out the weaknesses of this season (usually from a mix of people who are show-only fans and people who have also read the books) - most of them have been similar in tenor to the New York Times article.

Actually, I'm not sure if I've read or listened to anything that's been mindless promotion, although it must be out there.

[Doremus Coldwater]

It was no more concocted than the way GRRM got Jeyne Poole in the exact same situation. Really stop. It's blatantly obvious you can't separate the books from the show. It's only contrived if you take the way it happened in the books as gospel that HAS to happen.

I...just...what? :dunno:

Jeyne was sent there by the KL crowd to give Bolton a better hold on the North (and give KL more leverage over Bolton because they could expose the fraud).

Sansa, having just escaped three years of hell in KL, decides to wander back into exactly the same situation of her own accord, with absolutely zero plan for how this will achieve anything (and, of course, it doesn't), rather than staying in the Vale and actually using the power she has there.

And Littlefinger decides to hand over his most valuable asset (how the *** are the Vale lords ever going to trust him now???), without knowing jack shit about Ramsay, and run the risk of Bolton just locking him and Sansa up and handing them to Cersei as traitors.

And Bolton decides to make a move which will make Cersei call for his head, all to placate some Northern lords who don't even appear in the show.

How is this even remotely the same thing as the books?!?

(And yes, once Sansa got to Winterfell the plot progressed in a roughly logical manner (although locking her up in a room with no guards and a corkscrewable lock? Errrrm no). Which just underlines how mind-bogglingly, irredeemably, illogically stupid her decision was to begin with.

[Mister Stoneheart]

My problem with the idea about empowering women on TV is Brienne. I think her character is offensive to women because her character is one of the characters who are completely unrealistic. She sticks out like a sore thumb for existing on the show (and killing everyone with relative ease) only for the show to attempt to be politically correct. It doesn't work though. Brienne killing every great warrior in Westeros doesn't make up for showing countless nameless redheads and their boobs or raping women on the show for no other reason than for shock value. It only makes for resentment and bad story writing. If they want to empower women through use of Brienne then maybe they should concentrate on showing her as a complex character with some depth instead of having her conveniently and mindlessly killing everyone she fights.

Excellent post. This is my issue with Brienne. She's a super hero representation of strong woman. She's basically a superhero man. The books provide insights into her complex nature--the showrunners just can't get out of the cartoonish mindset. As someone said before, they just don't understand the books. They don't have the depth to understand the characters and the plot.

[aucp3]

That review is a bit stupid, actually. First they say the show is "departing too drastically from the letter and spirit of Mr. Martin’s original story" and then they criticize the death of a major character, the nudity and the treatment of violence toward women in the walk of Cersei, while all of this is from the books. Plus, the finale episode is one of the most faithful to the book this season (Jon, Cersei, Dany, Arya, Theon) so it's a bit strange to use this one as en example of departure from the books.

Now the criticism about the "breakdown in storytelling" could be said toward the books too, so I think it's a bit hypocritical for book readers to agree on such an article... GRRM wanted 3 seasons of these two books, don't you remember? The showrunners made it one season and want to move on...

^^^^^ This.

I completely agree, even if by your avatar you are a Bruins fan and therefore of the army of darkness (sorry! this is from a Canucks fan who is still very, very bitter!).

Season 5 certainly has lots of plot holes and inconsistencies compared to Feast & Dance, but for me that issue pales in comparison to the big issue for all of them - I've lost, let's say, 20% of my faith in the idea that it's going anywhere, and about 30% of my interest in what that destination even is, and that's true for both mediums. Momentum's going to keep me going for one more season / one more book, but if either is at the same level as the previous one, then I'll probably find out the ending on Wikipedia in a few years, if I even remember WTF an Azor Ahai is by then. I'm not saying they're particularly bad - I'm just saying they're no longer good enough for me to bother with. That New York Times review encapsulates my concerns pretty well.

I think it's admirable that the show tried to speed things along in this season - and I guess they did speed things up, seeing as how they condensed two books into one. I just wish those efforts, Sansa and Dorne in particular, had been more successful; I had high hopes for both stories at the start of the season, but, oh well. The cliffhangers in both books and show just don't have the same forward momentum as earlier cliffhangers did in the series. I'm curious where things are going, for both books and show, but I don't care as much about either, if that makes sense. Coming in to this season I cared more about the TV show than the books (I still think the books are "better", but Feast/Dance sort of lost me emotionally); now they're about even for me.

^^^^ And this all day.

I've repeatedly told people, GRRM does not know how to end this story. A Song of Ice and Fire was originally supposed to be a book trilogy. Somewhere along the way GRRM got grander ideas and instead of trying to bring this story to a conclusion, just kept adding more characters with more complex backgrounds. Now, what was supposed to be 3 books, is 7 and growing.

I think book readers and show watchers are weary and want some sort of resolution and payoff and the same frustrations are being echoed by both groups. There's only so much tension and buildup one can take before you need "release" or you just say screw it, I'm done.

[ValrianSunni]

Incorrect (and obtuse). Putting Sansa there was a show decision (and a good one), the rape was a natural outcome. To put Sansa there but not have Ramsay rape her would be nonsensical.

I love Sansa already being at Winterfell.

While I am impatient, I think this season, and this point in the books is about that classical story structure. The hero gets into a dilemma, then things get worse. In some way, things are worse for everyone.

Cersei and Margaery are certainly worse off than at the start of the season.

Sansa just jumped off a five story wall, SHE's worse off.

Tyrion is not running for his life, but he's running a city on the verge of civil war.

Jaime's new found daughter just died in his arms, he's worse off.

Dany's surrounded by some other Khalasar

Melisandre failed Stannis,

Jon's been stabbed.

Arya's blind.

Ellaria is perhaps the only person who ends the season on an uptick.

[grufolo]

They lack the same logic and context as the books. They don't lack content and logic. They made it perfectly clear all season that Jon was pissing everyone off with the wildlings from day 1 and they pushed that heavily to the point where it made sense that they would rebel against Jon as soon as came back and Stannis (his supporter died) it worked on it's own merits, just not for the same reason in the book. However, it puts his story in the correct position. Same for Dany we're they took the complexities out of Mereen by focusing on the Harpies plot and used that to facilitate her escape in the pit. It works in it of itself again, even though it's different, and it keeps her on the same path. Cersei's story is virtually the same beat for beat minus using Loras to get Marg.

This

The writers have done an incredible job in adapting two books of which one (book 4) was un-adaptable.

If they made a mistake it was too be to faithful to the books because they are in fact book fans.

Had they been a little more cynical they would have skipped more and gone directly into TWOW for more interesting material.

Most critics here have no idea of the work of adaptation and what drives it to be successful. Jon's arc was good and the ftw well suggested before, arc was also prepared as she grows more impatient with mereen, KL is also good given the screen time available. Removing the greyjoys altogether was a painful but rewarding choice, dorne was alas badly written and made, but having not had the option to cast arys and others forced them to completely restructure the section and the outcome for once was bad. I think they were forced to cast the sand snakes because they become important later or I would have just skipped dorne altogether

[ummester]

Excellent post. This is my issue with Brienne. She's a super hero representation of strong woman. She's basically a superhero man. The books provide insights into her complex nature--the showrunners just can't get out of the cartoonish mindset. As someone said before, they just don't understand the books. They don't have the depth to understand the characters and the plot.

Show Breinne is like that tennis player - you know, the big Williams sister. Most women tennis players don't whack the ball as hard as the guys - but that one does. Brieene is like that with a sword - I've never seen her as a super hero. She's just a more realistic type of Red Sonja, not all pretty, petite and big enough to do damage with a sword. The renowned fighters she has bested have all had injury or ailment at the time, like Sandor, so it keeps it believable enough.

As for her mindset, she is a bit thuggish in show. But don't forget her book character introduction had her climbing a hill to push a boulder onto a boat in the river below. That was cartoonish also.

[Bran's Legs]

They gave it a bad review for feeling like the season, overall, was treading water - good thing they haven't read the books :D

Some of the complaints are stupid - Ramsay started in Winterfell and he's still in Winterfell - yea, he's not going anywhere until season 7 probably, what do they expect? We saw the Starks loose Witerfell in earlier seasons, it would be stupid to remove tension and have Ramsay out before the end of season 7.

I think the New York Times would like it to be a 5 season show. And I can see the logic in that - everything can outstay it's welcome. 70 hours is a long time for a saga that climaxed 70% of it's plotlines 60% of the way in, the primary characters have already become boring because they are basically floating around waiting for thier end games. Perhaps it should only be a 6 season show

What is dead MAY never die.

[jet199]

I...just...what? :dunno:

Jeyne was sent there by the KL crowd to give Bolton a better hold on the North (and give KL more leverage over Bolton because they could expose the fraud).

Sansa, having just escaped three years of hell in KL, decides to wander back into exactly the same situation of her own accord, with absolutely zero plan for how this will achieve anything (and, of course, it doesn't), rather than staying in the Vale and actually using the power she has there.

And Littlefinger decides to hand over his most valuable asset (how the *** are the Vale lords ever going to trust him now???), without knowing jack shit about Ramsay, and run the risk of Bolton just locking him and Sansa up and handing them to Cersei as traitors.

And Bolton decides to make a move which will make Cersei call for his head, all to placate some Northern lords who don't even appear in the show.

How is this even remotely the same thing as the books?!?

(And yes, once Sansa got to Winterfell the plot progressed in a roughly logical manner (although locking her up in a room with no guards and a corkscrewable lock? Errrrm no). Which just underlines how mind-bogglingly, irredeemably, illogically stupid her decision was to begin with.

Sansa being LF's greatest asset, the funniest joke in the thread. Sansa is only useful for him to claim the north, even in the books he is planning to use her to do this. His guardianship of Sweetrobin is his claim on the Vale, he doesn't need Sansa for this. Sansa has no power in the Vale in the books, please quote an instance where she does.

And Sansa is also possibly wandering back into exactly the same situation of her own accord in the books, with Harry. She has no idea what he is, other than a complete arsehole, and will lose all of her power once she is a wife.

[Lord Freypie]

Sansa being LF's greatest asset, the funniest joke in the thread. Sansa is only useful for him to claim the north, even in the books he is planning to use her to do this. His guardianship of Sweetrobin is his claim on the Vale, he doesn't need Sansa for this. Sansa has no power in the Vale in the books, please quote an instance where she does.

And Sansa is also possibly wandering back into exactly the same situation of her own accord in the books, with Harry. She has no idea what he is, other than a complete arsehole, and will lose all of her power once she is a wife.

You realise that in the show they made Sansa's testimony the source of Vale lords trust for LF, and so of his power in the Vale ?

Even if she wasn't her biggest asset in the books (hard to know as we ignore what other cards he have in his hand), she certainly was in the show. The day the vale lords will learn he just gave her for the Boltons with no guarantee, it may be a bit hard to explain even for him.

[robasp2]

Show Breinne is like that tennis player - you know, the big Williams sister. Most women tennis players don't whack the ball as hard as the guys - but that one does. Brieene is like that with a sword - I've never seen her as a super hero. She's just a more realistic type of Red Sonja, not all pretty, petite and big enough to do damage with a sword. The renowned fighters she has bested have all had injury or ailment at the time, like Sandor, so it keeps it believable enough.

As for her mindset, she is a bit thuggish in show. But don't forget her book character introduction had her climbing a hill to push a boulder onto a boat in the river below. That was cartoonish also.

:agree:

Exactly. I'm tired of all these feminazi's or those accustomed to typical hollywood cute girl who beats up 10 big guys and then goes "Anyone want more?" When the guys groan in pain on the floor.

Brienne is the most believable strong woman role ever :D

[ummester]

:agree:

Exactly. I'm tired of all these feminazi's or those accustomed to typical hollywood cute girl who beats up 10 big guys and then goes "Anyone want more?" When the guys groan in pain on the floor.

Brienne is the most believable strong woman role ever :D

F=ma. Size does matter in physical conflict. It's physics, it's nothing to do with isms :D

[HouseLark]

That NYT review is funny because it could just as well be a review of AFFC/ADWD. What are the biggest complaints about those books? Nothing happens, the plot barely moves forward, etc. This season was always coming for the TV show. Martin himself couldn't untangle the Meereneese Knot very well so why should Benioff and Weiss be able to do any better?

The biggest problem the show now has is that they over play the "Jon is dead" card and viewers decide that it's not worth watching since anyone they root for just comes to an ignoble end (beheaded after compromising his position; stabbed over dinner; stabbed by comrades in a dark corner). On top of that, Dany never seems to go anywhere, she's been more or less stuck for three seasons (or indeed, around 16 years in the book series). Viewers want someone to root for or identify with and they all either die or seem so far removed from Westeros that it's hard to give a damn. Simply put, next season needs to reaffirm viewers' faith that, OK anyone can die, but there is hope. People won't tune in to relentless misery, that's what the news is for.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Brienne is the most believable strong woman role ever

Physically of course.

But show Brienne is not Brienne the Beauty but Brienne the Brute.

It's psychology of character that was totally dumped.

Book Brienne is like an ilegimate children of Warrior and Maiden.

Show Brienne is like a result of Warrior auto... well better not think what.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

Leaving aside the hysterical moaning of book purists moaning that their favourite character had been omitted the biggest problems with the season were structure, pacing and, all to often, the quality of the writing.

The show would have not been improved by Damphair standing proud, hair steaming in the wind. Or by Brienne's slow trudge through the riverlands. Or by Faegon introduced in season 5 of a planned 7 episode show.

It would have been much improved by properly planning and executing the plot lines they did choose to include and, given the structural flaw of AFFC/ADWD, going beyond the books to provide more resolution to all the varied plotlines.

As an example if Jon is going to be resurrected-do so as the finale.

This is spot on.

Poor execution of plots was exacerbated by adhering to pointless cliffhangers. I hate to think they did that out of deference for Son of Kong, but it seems like that may be the case.

We know D&D can create masterful original material because they have done so in previous seasons. Might be they are getting tired. Keep in mind folks, they write the entire series in a few months, covering roughly the same amount of plot it takes GRRM 5 years to write.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

One of my complaints is that the show just dropped the ball on Kings Landing. What happened to Loras and Marg? olyvar? What did LF mean when he told Lady Olenna he could offer a boy? That whole plot has been dangling for several episodes.