New York Times review

[robasp2]

I've read people say this was better than in books. Which is funny because this hasn't yet happened in the books at all. How do we know it's better? Just because it has already happened? Silly argument, imo.

The argument was the show took a "Why should she be the ruler" angle rather than "Targ for life."

Note Tyrion already met fAegon & that role was merged with Daenerys.

Yes the speed was ridiculous. But to be fair they had no time with all the dorne waste.

[A Man Is A Man]

I hate to move into "rant and rave" territory, but this thread seems as good as any right now since we're talking about the FTW scene. Did anyone find it underwhelming in the sense that the FTW folk got in a line to stab Jon one by one? The way I pictured it when I read it was a far more chaotic scene than the orderly thing we got on the show.

Yeah, I could't stand that scene, especially with how Jon is just sort of dutifully letting himself get killed while there's this orderly line of guys stabbing him, saying "For The Watch", and then politely moving aside for the next person in line to stab him. Utterly ridiculous. To say nothing of having it climax with Olly, which was both telegraphed for the entire season and also just plain stupid to give this non-book character such importance.

[robasp2]

Yeah, I could't stand that scene, especially with how Jon is just sort of dutifully letting himself get killed while there's this orderly line of guys stabbing him, saying "For The Watch", and then politely moving aside for the next person in line to stab him. Utterly ridiculous. To say nothing of having it climax with Olly, which was both telegraphed for the entire season and also just plain stupid to give this non-book character such importance.

Hehe.

No scream either. Silence.

He took the stabbings like a man & held out his belly each time so people could stab.

[lancerman]

I've read people say this was better than in books. Which is funny because this hasn't yet happened in the books at all. How do we know it's better? Just because it has already happened? Silly argument, imo.

They mean because it felt like a bait in switch where in ADWD all signs pointed to this big meet up between Dany and Tyrion. And in the end Dany is pretty much out of Slaver's Bay before Tyrion can meet up with her. Very soap opera like. "Oh they are both so about to meet", then fate intervenes and something happens and they just miss it.

Not that what happened this season was monumental or all that terribly important when they met. But there was sort of a buffer period created where Aegon not being part of the plot fast tracked Tyrion to Slaver's Bay at a point where it was early enough to meet Dany, but late enough that it didn't change or effect Dany or Tyrion's situation much beyond the point that they have familiarity with each other.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

And “Game of Thrones” has been defined by that stretching — a lot happened in Season 5, but when you look at the overall framework, nearly all the characters are where they were when the season began. The usurping Boltons are still in Winterfell; Sansa is still on the run; Arya is still hiding in Braavos; the dragon queen Daenerys Targaryen and the sly dwarf, Tyrion, are still marooned in Essos; the Lannisters still occupy the castle in King’s Landing. This can be blamed on the show’s semidependent relationship with Mr. Martin’s novels, but viewers (like me) who haven’t read the books don’t care about that. The question is how much longer we’ll care at all.

Seriously?

Jon Snow, Stannis Baratheon, Mance Rayder & Barristan Selmy have departed to the next world.

Tyron started the season in a shit stained box in Pentos and ended as the defacto ruler of Mereen.

Jora was MIA.

Danny is now MIA.

Sansa is now MIA.

Theon is now MIA.

Arya started in a boat and was last seen in the bowels of the house of black & white. Yes, is still physically in Braavos, but I'd say her story has advanced substantially.

The Lannisters still occupy the castle, but I'd say their position has changed drastically.

That paragraph is bad pussy.

[robasp2]

And Game of Thrones has been defined by that stretching a lot happened in Season 5, but when you look at the overall framework, nearly all the characters are where they were when the season began. The usurping Boltons are still in Winterfell; Sansa is still on the run; Arya is still hiding in Braavos; the dragon queen Daenerys Targaryen and the sly dwarf, Tyrion, are still marooned in Essos; the Lannisters still occupy the castle in Kings Landing. This can be blamed on the shows semidependent relationship with Mr. Martins novels, but viewers (like me) who havent read the books dont care about that. The question is how much longer well care at all.

Seriously?

That paragraph is bad pussy.

:lol:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I feel glad I never watched Lost :lol:

One day I will, though O___O

Here's my two cents:

Yes, both the show and the latter books are treading water, spinning their wheels, procrastinating, etc. The plot is really not moving as it should, and we got a boatload of cliffhangers instead of any sort of closure or resolution.

So, once we get that out of the way, I think one of the problems of the show is that its paddling is nowhere near as interesting or effective as the paddling of the books

Here are your cents and I put two more: Arya bores me to death. I'm not remotely involved in her plot, tbh, and I wish she was shipped to Ulthos to get eaten by a manticore. I HAVE to force myself to read her chapters. Yet, I know it will lead to something important eventually. All the cliffhangers will be the same at some point (right??). Yes, I know Arya is definitely more important to the story than Quentyn or Areo but so far, her plot isn't actually very involved with the main storyline. At least Quentyn's death is setting the future involvement or Dorne. What will be the involvement of Dorne in S6? No one knows, no one cares. There is more emotion, background story and badassery in the two lonely chapters of Griff in Dance than in the whole arc of Dorne of Season 5.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And “Game of Thrones” has been defined by that stretching — a lot happened in Season 5, but when you look at the overall framework, nearly all the characters are where they were when the season began. The usurping Boltons are still in Winterfell; Sansa is still on the run; Arya is still hiding in Braavos; the dragon queen Daenerys Targaryen and the sly dwarf, Tyrion, are still marooned in Essos; the Lannisters still occupy the castle in King’s Landing. This can be blamed on the show’s semidependent relationship with Mr. Martin’s novels, but viewers (like me) who haven’t read the books don’t care about that. The question is how much longer we’ll care at all.

Seriously?

Jon Snow, Stannis Baratheon, Mance Rayder & Barristan Selmy have departed to the next world.

Tyron started the season in a shit stained box in Pentos and ended as the defacto ruler of Mereen.

Jora was MIA.

Danny is now MIA.

Sansa is now MIA.

Theon is now MIA.

Arya started in a boat and was last seen in the bowels of the house of black & white. Yes, is still physically in Braavos, but I'd say her story has advanced substantially.

The Lannisters still occupy the castle, but I'd say their position has changed drastically.

That paragraph is bad pussy.

You're talking geographically. Just because a character moves from A to B doesn't mean such character has been developed. In that aspect, mostly all characters are the same.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

They mean because it felt like a bait in switch where in ADWD all signs pointed to this big meet up between Dany and Tyrion. And in the end Dany is pretty much out of Slaver's Bay before Tyrion can meet up with her. Very soap opera like. "Oh they are both so about to meet", then fate intervenes and something happens and they just miss it.

Not that what happened this season was monumental or all that terribly important when they met. But there was sort of a buffer period created where Aegon not being part of the plot fast tracked Tyrion to Slaver's Bay at a point where it was early enough to meet Dany, but late enough that it didn't change or effect Dany or Tyrion's situation much beyond the point that they have familiarity with each other.

To each their own, I suppose. If people feel that Tyrion and Dany being in the same room eating cookies and drinking tea is somehow better than him presenting himself to her as the guy who made the Second Sons turn their cloaks to her side after she returns with an horde of Dothrakis that just named her pretty much a Goddess, there is no much I can say except...

bad pussy

[robasp2]

You're talking geographically. Just because a character moves from A to B doesn't mean such character has been developed. In that aspect, mostly all characters are the same.

Jon had a massive change.

He was offered to be a stark.

He became LC

He failed in politics

He died.

How is that not progression?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jon had a massive change.

He was offered to be a stark.

He became LC

He failed in politics

He died.

How is that not progression?

I said "mostly".

[robasp2]

I said "mostly".

Ok.. So who didn't progress?

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

You're talking geographically. Just because a character moves from A to B doesn't mean such character has been developed. In that aspect, mostly all characters are the same.

The author of that piece is speaking geographically. Although, regarding Sansa, "on the run" isn't a place. Also, in case this has been lost on anyone, not only is Sansa MIA, she's MIA for the first time since the series began. All of the characters I described have had consequential changes since the beginning of the season.

I stand by my previous statement

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The author of that piece is speaking geographically. Although, regarding Sansa, "on the run" isn't a place. Also, in case this has been lost on anyone, not only is Sansa MIA, she's MIA for the first time since the series began. All of the characters I described have had consequential changes since the beginning of the season.

I stand by my previous statement

Sansa, since the start of the show, has been handled from one person to another to be their victim. She's now the same as she has pretty much being rescued by Theon.

In Feast and the new Alayne chapter, she's in charge of a household. She's learning how to lead and rule people, so to speak. She's also in more control of her life. There's a development. What's Sansa's development in the show? She's not a virgin anymore? :dunno:

[rayarts]

This is literally the exact same criticism many book critics gave AFFC and ADWD. It feels like stalling, bloating, and little real advancement despite a lot happening. Shouldn't be surprising.

This.

[robasp2]

Sansa, since the start of the show, has been handled from one person to another to be their victim. She's now the same as she has pretty much being rescued by Theon.

In Feast and the new Alayne chapter, she's in charge of a household. She's learning how to lead and rule people, so to speak. She's also in more control of her life. There's a development. What's Sansa's development in the show? She's not a virgin anymore? :dunno:

She learnt her brothers aint dead

She ahem lost her virginity

She realized she makes bad decisions

She realized the north is secretly backing her

She knows about her aunt Lyanna

She reconnected with Theon

She loses her trust in LF

She is more brave and takes risks now when things didnt work out

She now no longer fears threats(Myranda)

One need not compare with the books. She did progress in the show. Though maybe not well done.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Sansa, since the start of the show, has been handled from one person to another to be their victim. She's now the same as she has pretty much being rescued by Theon.

In Feast and the new Alayne chapter, she's in charge of a household. She's learning how to lead and rule people, so to speak. She's also in more control of her life. There's a development. What's Sansa's development in the show? She's not a virgin anymore? :dunno:

She's not in the hands of anyone anymore. That's the point.

I seem to recall that she's the one who tried to enlist Theon in her initial escape and then took matters into her own hands when that didn't work. She's the one that used the implement she picked up to escape her cell, went to the tower and lit the candle herself. She's the one that stood up to the kennel masters daughter before Theon grew his balls back and shoved her off the balcony. I also recall that she and Theon jumped together. This season, she also learned that some of her family survived. But hey, maybe a season of her loitering in the Vale wiping Sweetrobin's ass would have been more interesting. What do I know?

Oh, and she's not a virgin anymore.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

dp

[aquintus]

FTW being solely caused by Jon bringing the wildlings through the wall makes perfect sense. Jon wanting to team up with the only enemy the NW has known (in living memory) is more than enough reason. There's a faction of the NW that hates his guts no matter what he does. They hate that he has become the LC and they really do see him as a traitor. And Hardhome does not change that for this hardcore faction. They are not going to take Jon's word for it that the wildlings should be the least of their worries.

This. All the points about neutrality are also extremely flimsy since Marsh had no problem allying himself with Janos Slynt, an unabashed Lannister lackey. I also don't buy that the Pink Letter had anything to do with the assassination other than maybe forcing the conspirators hands. A conspiracy to assassinate the leader of a their military order isn't going to be a spur of the moment thing. They'd obviously been planning it out for a while. They were set on doing it long before they learned the contents of the letter.

To me at least, the assassination was obviously about the wildlings. Marsh had spent his entire life at the Watch fighting them. When most of the Watch was being killed at the Fist of the First Men, Marsh was battling Wildlings at the Bridge of Skulls. Marsh has a ton of experience being antagonistic against the wildlings and little, if any, experience with the Others. For him, it would seem like Jon is betraying the purpose of the Watch to fight against fairytale monsters. And that's something that is pretty explicate spelled out in a couple of different conversations that Jon had with Marsh in the books.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

This. All the points about neutrality are also extremely flimsy since Marsh Thorne ad no problem allying himself with Janos Slynt, an unabashed Lannister lackey. I also don't buy that the Pink Letter had anything to do with the assassination other than maybe forcing the conspirators hands. A conspiracy to assassinate the leader of a their military order isn't going to be a spur of the moment thing. They'd obviously been planning it out for a while. They were set on doing it long before they learned the contents of the letter.

To me at least, the assassination was obviously about the wildlings. Marsh had spent his entire life at the Watch fighting them. When most of the Watch was being killed at the Fist of the First Men, Marsh was battling Wildlings at the Bridge of Skulls. Marsh has a ton of experience being antagonistic against the wildlings and little, if any, experience with the Others. For him, it would seem like Jon is betraying the purpose of the Watch to fight against fairytale monsters. And that's something that is pretty explicate spelled out in a couple of different conversations that Jon had with Marsh in the books.

Fixed it for you.

I agree with this. The pink letter was the final straw, not the sole justification.