Alayne's Shadow. Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 What? When did I say anything about that line being good writing? You did said that just because I dislike it it doesn't make it bad. I liked it when the writing was good. I dislike it because the writing IS bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's really not. If LF's plan was plant a "Stark" in Winterfell to have an excuse to take the Vale to the North to take Winterfell. That can happen in the books and the show. The Bolton/Lannister alliances is irrelevant. It was done with Tywin who is dead, Cersie in the both the books and the show have done nothing for the Boltons to secure the North, and now the Lannister's power is fading. The Lannister's wanted Arya as well in case you forgot and the Bolton's were passing Jeyne off as Arya. It all makes sense. No. It doesn't. Arya and Sansa are different, because um, Sansa is wanted for killing Joff. And, um, yeah, hello, duh, LF bringing the Vale army to Winterfell, with Sansa, not leaving her there, married randomly to one of the sides that might lose or win, it is brutally fucking stupid, I'm sorry and is not in any way parallel to showing up during or after the battle to help one side win, in which case Sansa Stark is not at risk. The Bolton Lannister alliance is not irrelevant because when you openly marry your heir to a wanted criminal wanted for killing the previous king then you are an enemy of the STATE for as long as a Lannister king sits the throne. Really, people shouldn't defend it. It's not worth it. The show did it, it was clumsy and doesn't hold up, it was poorly reasoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 So far the argument seems to be "Sansa being raped in Winterfell makes sense because she is in Winterfell" which is not a good answer to the question "Why the hell would Sansa be in Winterfell, it makes no sense." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 edit: double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 And your mistake is thinking that Jeyne Poole = Sansa Stark. It is contrived in show history because there's no clear goal as to why would Sansa go with it, why would LF leave his biggest asset there and why would Roose accept so easily to rebel against the Crown. Yeah there is. Sansa is being manipulated by LF. She was manipulated by him to cover up his murder of her aunt and was doing whatever he wanted in the show. She also made clear she wanted revenge for her parents. He played her the same way he played Jeyne (though not as bad). They already explained every one of your other concerns as well. Sansa really isn't an asset to anybody but the Northerners. They are the ones who won't except anybody but the Starks. The Roose also explained that his alliance was with Tywin not the crown, and his death and Cersie's lack of helping him secure the North broke his faith in their usefulness to him. So he needed a Stark. Just like he needed a "Stark" in the books. The difference was this time he got the real Sansa which is better than fake Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Why do I get the sense that showpologists would defend a decision to have LF put Sansa on the moon because it would be safe there. I could see it now, "It makes perfect sense! What safer place is there than the moon? You're just mad that GRRM didn't think of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yeah there is. Sansa is being manipulated by LF. She was manipulated by him to cover up his murder of her aunt and was doing whatever he wanted in the show. She also made clear she wanted revenge for her parents. He played her the same way he played Jeyne (though not as bad). So you're claiming that there was not progress in Sansa's arc last season? That despite appearances, she was in fact still just a victim of manipulation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night'sQueen Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 You did said that just because I dislike it it doesn't make it bad. I liked it when the writing was good. I dislike it because the writing IS bad. Yeah, that doesn't answer my question. You accused me of saying something I never said and I don't appreciate that kind of nonsense and misdirection. I think we're done here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robasp2 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Hmm good article.But I think they over emphasised the women stuff.The problem was extreme character assassination of sansa rather than violence against women.When they even complained about Cercei's walk I was like "What the fuck? Feminazis wont even let the bitch get what she always deserved?Luckily they reminded the readers of her crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Edit: sorry screwed up a quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErasmusF Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 George stopped reading websites in the 90's, according to him. He's also said that he discovered someone pieced it together on the internet. Whether it's a habit or not, I am sure he doesn't have spoiler canceling headphones. Somehow, some way, he has probably heard all of the plausible endings and it pisses him off. He also reads his own website... unless someone reads it to him. Which seems like a "jon is dead" level misdirect. Believe what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Not Appearing Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Any attempt to analyze the show absent it's dependency on the novels is incomplete at best, as evidenced by some of the major critiques in that article (FTW and WOS). One must know what the books contain in order to properly assess the failings or winnings of show direction. Really, that article critiques GRRM... compounded by less detail and nuance required for the medium of a TV show.And I think they botched this season. For other reasons, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 So you're claiming that there was not progress in Sansa's arc last season? That despite appearances, she was in fact still just a victim of manipulation? Yeah. I thinjk you've been stretching the narrative to act like she had meaningful plot progression in season 4. -we literally see her get swept up in LF's plot to kill Joffrey and remove Sansa from KL -by stupidly running away immediately after the death she made herself a prime suspect. -she goes to the Vale -she lets LF who is married to her Aunt kiss her, thus manipulating her into giving Lysa a reason to want her dead. -Watches Lysa talk about how LF came up with the idea to murder Jon, being too stupid to get it, and watching Lysa be murdered -then she inexplicably covers up a murder for LF giving him power in the Vale -the last time we see her she has black hair and a black dress and gives LF "I'm so into you" eyes. Now I bet you think that all that meant Sansa was becoming a player. When really everything that happened was her getting manipulated by LF, needing to trust him out of necessity, getting manipulated again and putting herself in danger from Lysa, and once again trusting him out of necessity. She was strung along the whole way. Then she gets manipulated again so that LF can run to Cersie to say "oh look Bolton has that girl you want let me take the Vale to crush him and Stannis in after they have a battle so I can become Warden of the North without any consequences". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yeah. I thinjk you've been stretching the narrative to act like she had meaningful plot progression in season 4. -we literally see her get swept up in LF's plot to kill Joffrey and remove Sansa from KL -by stupidly running away immediately after the death she made herself a prime suspect. -she goes to the Vale -she lets LF who is married to her Aunt kiss her, thus manipulating her into giving Lysa a reason to want her dead. -Watches Lysa talk about how LF came up with the idea to murder Jon, being too stupid to get it, and watching Lysa be murdered -then she inexplicably covers up a murder for LF giving him power in the Vale -the last time we see her she has black hair and a black dress and gives LF "I'm so into you" eyes. Now I bet you think that all that meant Sansa was becoming a player. When really everything that happened was her getting manipulated by LF, needing to trust him out of necessity, getting manipulated again and putting herself in danger from Lysa, and once again trusting him out of necessity. She was strung along the whole way. Then she gets manipulated again so that LF can run to Cersie to say "oh look Bolton has that girl you want let me take the Vale to crush him and Stannis in after they have a battle so I can become Warden of the North without any consequences". Wow. That's such a bizarre reading of the books, not to mention a strange interpretation of the show. Anywho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acosta Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The reviewer's complaint about Sansa isn't about her storyline being illogical, though. That's this website's complaint. The reviewer is complaining about ever more violence and rape. I don't think if they'd shown Jeyne Poole getting beat to crap and raped by dogs, and Lady Hornwood locked in a room eating her own hands, they'd be "oh that's cool, at least Littlefinger's scheming makes more sense." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Wow. That's such a bizarre reading of the books, not to mention a strange interpretation of the show. Anywho... We are talking about the show. If you need to invoke the books to criticize a plot in the show you are not doing a good job. All that happened in the show. Stop turning your brain off so you can miss things and then claim to find inconsistencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The reviewer's complaint about Sansa isn't about her storyline being illogical, though. That's this website's complaint. The reviewer is complaining about ever more violence and rape. I don't think if they'd shown Jeyne Poole getting beat to crap and raped by dogs, and Lady Hornwood locked in a room eating her own hands, they'd be "oh that's cool, at least Littlefinger's scheming makes more sense." Yep. They complained about the rape existing at all. If it was Jeyne Poole they still would have complained. They complained about that and how fast the plot moved, which was actually sped up in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 We are talking about the show. If you need to invoke the books to criticize a plot in the show you are not doing a good job. All that happened in the show. Stop turning your brain off so you can miss things and then claim to find inconsistencies. I'm sorry, I didn't see the part in the show where LF manipulated Sansa into protecting him. I saw Sansa developing into a player, much like she was in the books, which remain, regardless of your willing it otherwise, the ultimate arbiter of show consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night'sQueen Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The reviewer's complaint about Sansa isn't about her storyline being illogical, though. That's this website's complaint. The reviewer is complaining about ever more violence and rape. I don't think if they'd shown Jeyne Poole getting beat to crap and raped by dogs, and Lady Hornwood locked in a room eating her own hands, they'd be "oh that's cool, at least Littlefinger's scheming makes more sense." Precisely. Yep. They complained about the rape existing at all. If it was Jeyne Poole they still would have complained. They complained about that and how fast the plot moved, which was actually sped up in the show. If it was Jeyne and they showed what GRRM wrote then... I don't know. Could they even allude to that on TV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I'm sorry, I didn't see the part in the show where LF manipulated Sansa into protecting him. I saw Sansa developing into a player, much like she was in the books, which remain, regardless of your willing it otherwise, the ultimate arbiter of show consistency. Really you read the scenes where LF got Sansa got seduced into kissing LF which prompted Lysa to attack her, thus needing LF once again, hearing about the murder of Jon Aryn (which started Sansa's entire fucking ordeal by making her dad go to KL), watching him kill her mother's sister, and then protecting him because he put her in a situation where she needed him because his actions put her in danger as her becoming a "player". Not a single thing she did was not manipulated by LF either by dragging her into a mess or creating a scenario where she needed his help. She did two notable things lie for LF and dye her hair. If that's what a player in Westeros is then they are all fucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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