So what is HBO's strategy on the Jon Snow question?

[Hajk]

@trw1972 Well, if Jon will spend a considerable amount of time inside Ghost in the books they might leave Jon out of commission for all of s 6 and bring him back for s 7. Still doesn't explain the emphatic 'he's dead' line, but if it's trolling...

On the other hand, suppose for a moment that he is dead for good. Then they would do exactly what they are currently doing. No further complexities required. Occam's razor.

[FantasyFan73]

@trw1972 Well, if Jon will spend a considerable amount of time inside Ghost in the books they might leave Jon out of commission for all of s 6 and bring him back for s 7. Still doesn't explain the emphatic 'he's dead' line, but if it's trolling...

True but How would they explain it when they brought jon back a full season later?

I have a horrid but funny image in my mind now of future dialogue

Sam: Whats wrong Jon?

Ghost: Woof, Woof

Sam: Sansa Fell off the roof?

Ghost: Woof Woof Woof!!

[R4W13Y]

On the other hand, suppose for a moment that he is dead for good. Then they would do exactly what they are currently doing. No further complexities required. Occam's razor.

:bowdown:

Seriously, I don't have to say anything because you are nailing it.

[Sasha Steelsong]

On the other hand, suppose for a moment that he is dead for good. Then they would do exactly what they are currently doing. No further complexities required. Occam's razor.

True but I think Kit would have gotten a parting present ala Rose and Kerry (there was a pic with her with the stag Davos gave Shireen). Kit said he got nothing. But for the clues in the book and the unlikelihood of them killing him off early if Jon is risen/revived/whatever in the book (most because I doubt he's going to come back from the dead in the book to play a role that is easy to cut out, even if he's dead at the end of the series), I would agree. However the man-wolf-man vision that Mel has and the fact that she keeps seeing "only Snow" when she looks for Stannis as AAR certainly suggest his story isn't actually done.

[kissdbyfire]

@Hajk, Mel arriving too quickly is a plot hole. Otherwise, why didn't Stannis wait for Davos to go and come back with supplies before burning his daughter and heir?

And I honestly don't think that Mel's gone back because she has to be there for Jon's resurrection or whatever. They really didn't have any place to send her at that point. Will she end up in Winterfell, for instance? Or will her vision be proven false and that's the end of her? If you think in terms of all the fantasy elements that they got rid of, Mel may be done.

[Lord Friendzone]

There is a Blind Gossip site that had this for a clue:

If you were recently disappointed by the finale of a hit television show, you’ll definitely want to hear this! Other hot stars in his same age group have a dozen projects in the pipeline. Yet, one of the hottest young actors in the world has nowhere to go and nothing to do. That’s weird. He has absolutely NOTHING in the pipeline. Even his costars have at least a project or two on the side, but he has nothing. Nothing in pre. Nothing in post. If his tenure on this hit television show was really over, his very competent agents would have been lining up multiple projects for him months ago.

That is, unless our young actor is playing a little game of his own…

Actor: Show:

There are 131 guesses. 126 guesses are for Jon Snow/KH. 5 name other people.

My point is not to encourage everyone to visit blind gossip sites. But, everywhere I have been, it seems like fans DO NOT BELIEVE Jon Snow is dead. Whatever strategy HBO planned, it does not seem to be inspiring belief in the great unwashed. I include Huffington Post articles, Grantland, Vanity Fair, and even Yahoo and now blind gossip. Seems like folks who watch the show simply don't believe Jon is dead!

Kit said couple of months ago, that he will take a break from filming to spend more time with his family, and maybe to travel around the world with his friend.

[FantasyFan73]

On the other hand, suppose for a moment that he is dead for good. Then they would do exactly what they are currently doing. No further complexities required. Occam's razor.

True of course, one thing is for sure they managed to generate a lot of discussion.

[R4W13Y]

Kit said couple of months ago, that he will take a break from filming to spend more time with his family, and maybe to travel around the world with his friend.

That's a good point. He hasn't had a break since he graduated from drama school and has kept himself busy in between shooting for GoT.

[Hajk]

@Hajk, Mel arriving too quickly is a plot hole. Otherwise, why didn't Stannis wait for Davos to go and come back with supplies before burning his daughter and heir?

Frankly, I am in the camp that holds that Davos was not actually sent to get supplies and don't think Stannis was expecting them either (as Jon points out, they had already had this conversation). He was getting the guy who had already risked his life to save the unknown Gendry out of the way before doing what he had already decided to do with Shireen.

Davos leaves one day and Mel leaves the next morning. By the time she gets there Davos is already there. I don't see the plot hole. The only question is whether her arrival was immediately after the battle at Winterfell or not, but there is nothing to indicate that it was.

[kissdbyfire]

On the other hand, suppose for a moment that he is dead for good. Then they would do exactly what they are currently doing. No further complexities required. Occam's razor.

Oh, I know it may very well be true show wise. No doubts about it. But what bothers me is, if show!Jon is really, truly, completely dead - zero loopholes, for argument's sake - then the fact that they are denying it so emphatically is a really bad move.. Because it kills a possible hype, it's dumb.

I have no doubts whatsoever that there will be viewers, especially shownlies, that will stop watching if they really believe Jon is dead. Add to that that this has been a very uneven season, to say the least...

Now, how many viewers would give up on the show? No idea. Would it be a significant number? No idea.

[R4W13Y]

Oh, I know it may very well be true show wise. No doubts about it. But what bothers me is, if show!Jon is really, truly, completely dead - zero loopholes, for argument's sake - then the fact that they are denying it so emphatically is a really bad move.. Because it kills a possible hype, it's dumb.

I have no doubts whatsoever that there will be viewers, especially shownlies, that will stop watching if they really believe Jon is dead. Add to that that this has been a very uneven season, to say the least...

Now, how many viewers would give up on the show? No idea. Would it be a significant number? No idea.

Yeah I think either way what they decided to say in their interviews was a bad move.

[kissdbyfire]

@Hajk,

re why Stannis sends Davos away, yeah I think that was part of the reason but not the only reason. And I know Cunningham has said in interviews that Davos didn't know. And I don't buy it for a second. Maybe it was supposed to come across like that and got slightly mangled in editing.

My main problem with the Jon Snow controversy is that despite being curious to see how it will play out, I cannot bring myself to care much.

[Hajk]

True but I think Kit would have gotten a parting present ala Rose and Kerry (there was a pic with her with the stag Davos gave Shireen). Kit said he got nothing. But for the clues in the book and the unlikelihood of them killing him off early if Jon is risen/revived/whatever in the book (most because I doubt he's going to come back from the dead in the book to play a role that is easy to cut out, even if he's dead at the end of the series), I would agree. However the man-wolf-man vision that Mel has and the fact that she keeps seeing "only Snow" when she looks for Stannis as AAR certainly suggest his story isn't actually done.

I quite agree that he will return in the books. That was the very first line of the OP.

But I don't think that has to happen in the show (I have argued for this in the OP already) and the whole Azor Ahai prophecy is given very little emphasis in the show and far more build-up in the books.

As for Kit saying that he got nothing, I wouldn't put much emphasis on that. Otherwise I would have to think that Kit knows that he is returning and is attempting to create an illusion that he is not returning, yet is (either purposefully, or carelessly) leaving in clues that refute his well constructed lie.

If the lie explanation is correct, HBO would certainly have crafted it quite carefully and not allowed room for such random tidbits. On the other hand, if he is telling the truth then this can simply be an account of what happened. He got nothing and he is joking that Rose got something etc.

[Hajk]

@Hajk,

re why Stannis sends Davos away, yeah I think that was part of the reason but not the only reason. And I know Cunningham has said in interviews that Davos didn't know. And I don't buy it for a second. Maybe it was supposed to come across like that and got slightly mangled in editing.

He risked his life and betrayed Stannis to save Gendry, who he never even knew, would he really do nothing for Shireen, a child he loved and adored?

[kissdbyfire]

People let things slip unintentionally too. Also, if he's coming back it will be a pretty tough secret to keep.

As to the presies, apparently they all get something. McElhinney said they all get North Face jumpers or something.

[kissdbyfire]

He risked his life and betrayed Stannis to save Gendry, who he never even knew, would he really do nothing for Shireen, a child he loved and adored?

Never. Davos would risk his life even if all he had was suspicion, no doubts about it whatsoever.

[R4W13Y]

@Hajk,

re why Stannis sends Davos away, yeah I think that was part of the reason but not the only reason. And I know Cunningham has said in interviews that Davos didn't know. And I don't buy it for a second. Maybe it was supposed to come across like that and got slightly mangled in editing.

My main problem with the Jon Snow controversy is that despite being curious to see how it will play out, I cannot bring myself to care much.

:lol: this exactly.

People let things slip unintentionally too. Also, if he's coming back it will be a pretty tough secret to keep.

As to the presies, apparently they all get something. McElhinney said they all get North Face jumpers or something.

Maybe he did but he was specifically referring to a special present like Rose got?

[Cas Stark]

The show has said over and over they're not diverging in any significant way from the books. Jon Snow is one of the key characters. Thus, his ends needs to be the same as it is in the books, he's not a secondary character who randomly die for shock effect.

Thus, the only way that Jon Snow is dead and not getting resurrected in the show is if he accomplishes nothing important for the rest of the saga, and of course also dies at end. This seems very unlikely also.

And then we would ask, why would they lie? They lie for the surprise factor. If they don't lie, then everyone says, eh, he's not dead, no big deal. Even now, as you can see, many people, critics bloggers don't believe he's dead. The Jon Snow that everyone thought was o might be really dead who comes back 3 episodes in, is much more dramatic. And that's what they like. Drama.

Also note GRRM hasn't said anything about this. Which he made comments on other characters dying early, characters he wished were alive in the show, but he has nothing to say about Jon Snow?! Oh Really.

[R4W13Y]

The show has said over and over they're not diverging in any significant way from the books. Jon Snow is one of the key characters. Thus, his ends needs to be the same as it is in the books, he's not a secondary character who randomly die for shock effect.

Thus, the only way that Jon Snow is dead and not getting resurrected in the show is if he accomplishes nothing important for the rest of the saga, and of course also dies at end. This seems very unlikely also.

And then we would ask, why would they lie? They lie for the surprise factor. If they don't lie, then everyone says, eh, he's not dead, no big deal. Even now, as you can see, many people, critics bloggers don't believe he's dead. The Jon Snow that everyone thought was o might be really dead who comes back 3 episodes in, is much more dramatic. And that's what they like. Drama.

Also note GRRM hasn't said anything about this. Which he made comments on other characters dying early, characters he wished were alive in the show, but he has nothing to say about Jon Snow?! Oh Really.

So if they are lying, they failed in their purpose, since basically no one believes them :lol:

About GRRM, it's only been a couple days. He might comment on it in the future if he feels the need. I don't think he commented on LSH until just this season, but I could be wrong about that.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I quite agree that he will return in the books. That was the very first line of the OP.

But I don't think that has to happen in the show (I have argued for this in the OP already) and the whole Azor Ahai prophecy is given very little emphasis in the show and far more build-up in the books.

As for Kit saying that he got nothing, I wouldn't put much emphasis on that. Otherwise I would have to think that Kit knows that he is returning and is attempting to create an illusion that he is not returning, yet is (either purposefully, or carelessly) leaving in clues that refute his well constructed lie.

If the lie explanation is correct, HBO would certainly have crafted it quite carefully and not allowed room for such random tidbits. On the other hand, if he is telling the truth then this can simply be an account of what happened. He got nothing and he is joking that Rose got something etc.

Oh I read your OP argument and while I get how it could technically happen, it would be a PR nightmare for the show, because there is no way that show fans would be happy to learn that he came back to life in the books but isn't alive on the show, and his book resurrection wouldn't stay secret. As it is the season was uneven and show fans are already grumpy about a bunch of things, Jon being alive in the books and not the show would be a kick in the teeth, because as many have pointed out, he felt like the last character really worth rooting for. There is a big difference in killing off peripheral characters early (i.e Shireen - though wonderfully played by Kerry - Myrcella - she's alive in the books but I don't know anyone who thinks she's long for the world - or Trant - exact same reason) and killing off a big character who arguably still has a pivotal role in the books (I don't think GRRM is going to resurrect him just to have him learn whom his parents are and then kill him off again without his death being important).

I also don't agree there hasn't been an emphasis on AAR in the show, it has just been focused solely on Stannis even if not by name, and that got blown out of the water in the last episode when he lost. There was never the doubt in Mel's visions that we got in the book but the focus has been there. I'd wager the reason there wasn't the doubt was precisely because they didn't want the audience thinking there was even the possibility of it being anyone else in Westeros (I imagine many think Dany might be a possibility).

The way the whole season ended I genuinely think all this was done to preserve GRRM's ability to get the next book out and at least tie up the cliffhangers he left at the end of ADWD. None of the other books thus far have ended with pretty much every story on a cliffhanger and GRRM is swearing up and down he's trying to finish off the book.