So what is HBO's strategy on the Jon Snow question?

[Lord Friendzone]

Gosh - Jon had a moment of despair, his situation is pretty grim, a watch that hates him, the southerners determined to kill each other and seemingly noone able to see the bigger picture. I couldnt blame him for that moment, it did not make him seem whiny to me.

Exactly. The situation looks pretty miserable. I don't blame him, and especially after massacre at Hardhome.

[shaggy_rick]

Gosh - Jon had a moment of despair, his situation is pretty grim, a watch that hates him, the southerners determined to kill each other and seemingly noone able to see the bigger picture. I couldnt blame him for that moment, it did not make him seem whiny to me.

It's not just a "moment of despair".

Sam asks Jon how he will be doing his job as a Lord Commander (guard the realms of men): "What you're gonna do?"

And Jon basically says: NOTHING, we stand no chance. Just hope (that they don't know how to climb the wall).

Sam is bringing up several points that could give hope to defend the wall:

• White Walkers are not invincible

dragon glass

valyrian steel

Jon refutes every point. Jon doesn't show any hope, inspiration or will to lead and fight.

And it is not just "a moment". It is the last description of his character before his last remaining friend (Sam) asks leave to abandon him, and he sends him away and gets stabbed. The build up for FTW feels more like suizide than mutiny.

Funny side note: the only show-reason for FTW, the unpoular decision to let the wildlings on the other side of the wall was made by one of the stabbers - Alliser Thorne. He gave the command to let them through the tunnel. He did have the power to keep the wildlings on the other side.

[Grimbold]

But if you watch the scene with Jon and Sam again, you will see that Show-Jon is absolutely useless as a leader.

So this whiny creature should be brought back to lead the fight? At this point Show-Sam would be a way better Lord Commander than Show-Jon.

This dialog alone would be reason enough for "For-the-Watch".

What am i missing here?

As far as im concerned .jon is simply laying the facts while demonstrating how dire the situation is

[StarksNTargs]

Honestly, with GRRM stating that he's working his hardest to release tWoW before season 6 begins, it could have simply been a stipulation of his that the show couldn't let the cat out of the bag regarding Jon's fate. Then again, I guess they could have been more ambiguous like George was instead of just flat saying he's gone for good. Either way, it would be incredibly bad writing on everyone's part to build the character up so much and then have him go out like that for good. I know George likes keeping us guessing, but there comes a time when characters dying means very little when it's happening so often.

[FantasyFan73]

double post, sorry.

[FantasyFan73]

It's not just a "moment of despair".

Sam asks Jon how he will be doing his job as a Lord Commander (guard the realms of men): "What you're gonna do?"

And Jon basically says: NOTHING, we stand no chance. Just hope (that they don't know how to climb the wall).

Sam is bringing up several points that could give hope to defend the wall:

• White Walkers are not invincible

dragon glass

valyrian steel

Jon refutes every point. Jon doesn't show any hope, inspiration or will to lead and fight.

And it is not just "a moment". It is the last description of his character before his last remaining friend (Sam) asks leave to abandon him, and he sends him away and gets stabbed. The build up for FTW feels more like suizide than mutiny.

Funny side note: the only show-reason for FTW, the unpoular decision to let the wildlings on the other side of the wall was made by one of the stabbers - Alliser Thorne. He gave the command to let them through the tunnel. He did have the power to keep the wildlings on the other side.

Jon didnt know it was his last moment :)

It was just him confiding his concerns to his only friend and his concerns are genuine. I think if he had been all macho without doubts, worries and concerns it would have made him more 1 dimensional, like bond on steroids or something.

If the walkers had attacked? i am pretty sure we would have seen him lead, as he did before.

[shaggy_rick]

What am i missing here?

As far as im concerned .jon is simply laying the facts while demonstrating how dire the situation is

If that is how Jon sees the facts he has every right to commit suizide. But he is stabbed before he can do this Why should we mourn for him if they all (according to Jon's view) would die in the upcomming White Walker attack anyway?

But if that is his take on the situation, and he has no ideas about what he could do to improve it - what use is such a "leader"? And why would this be worth resurrecting?

A good leader, and a hero would at least try everything - no matter how bad the odds are against you.

And there are things he could do - even if they might not work or help in the end:

• educate his brothers about the weaknesses of the White Walkers (dragon glass, valyrian steel) and the wights (fire)
• rebuild the other castles and man them with the wildlings
• orgainze wood and other stuff that can burn so they can give the wights a "warm welcome"
• organize supplies (send an envoy to the Iron Bank to borrow money, and buy food)
• send a small group to Dragonstone to negotiate with whom ever holds it to get more dragon glass. Stannis already told him, that there is dragon glass on Dragonstone - do you remember? Sadly Jon doesn't.
• send letters to Kings Landing and to high lords explaining the situation and the need for all the valyrian steel swords. Not that I think the lords would comply and send the swords immediately - but he should try anyway.

So if he was a strong leader, determined to save humanity - no matter what - there are things he could do. Stannis would!

But instead his summary is: There's nothing we can do. We're doomed.

And then Mel will resurrect him, and he will be the hero and leader again and do all that. Would be stupid. And sadly it probably will happen exactly this way.

[Maesteress]

When TWOW is released early next year, and book readers all discover that Jon Snow indeed is resurrected and his story continues, it will be SO SIMPLE for Kit Harrington to say in interviews, "Hey, we were at the end of Jon's story - I was told he was done and therefore I was done, based on the information available at the time. But it seems I've been given new life! I'm so excited to be returning to the show!"

Although I would hope HBO would still try to keep things on the down low until the series premieres, as there are still many who don't read the books (just can't understand this lol) or stalk these forums and will be surprised at the premiere of Season 6. Spoiling things for those who don't actively search out the spoilers is just plain mean.

This is exactly what they wanted - all of us on here, previously 100% certain Jon was coming back and now maybe more on the 99.9% side....and that teeny tiny .01% makes ALL the difference when it comes to marketing and hype. It's all they need. Pure brilliance.

[Maesteress]

If that is how Jon sees the facts he has every right to commit suizide. But he is stabbed before he can do this Why should we mourn for him if they all (according to Jon's view) would die in the upcomming White Walker attack anyway?

But if that is his take on the situation, and he has no ideas about what he could do to improve it - what use is such a "leader"? And why would this be worth resurrecting?

A good leader, and a hero would at least try everything - no matter how bad the odds are against you.

And there are things he could do - even if they might not work or help in the end:

• educate his brothers about the weaknesses of the White Walkers (dragon glass, valyrian steel) and the wights (fire)

rebuild the other castles and man them with the wildlings

orgainze wood and other stuff that can burn so they can give the wights a "warm welcome"

organize supplies (send an envoy to the Iron Bank to borrow money, and buy food)

send a small group to Dragonstone to negotiate with whom ever holds it to get more dragon glass. Stannis already told him, that there is dragon glass on Dragonstone - do you remember? Sadly Jon doesn't.

send letters to Kings Landing and to high lords explaining the situation and the need for all the valyrian steel swords. Not that I think the lords would comply and send the swords immediately - but he should try anyway.

So if he was a strong leader, determined to save humanity - no matter what - there are things he could do. Stannis would!

But instead his summary is: There's nothing we can do. We're doomed.

And then Mel will resurrect him, and he will be the hero and leader again and do all that. Would be stupid. And sadly it probably will happen exactly this way.

GRRM has been quoted frequently saying that the only story worth telling is one about the struggles of the human heart. Jon is the epitome of this - he is in constant conflict in his heart. Whether it is to stay true to the NW or go avenge is family, or stay true to tradition vs save the wildings, or sleep with Ygritte or stay true to his vows....or even something as simple as stay strong and lead or have a weak moment and feel like giving up. What makes a leader great is not that he never has moments of doubt or despair - it is what he does AFTER those moments that makes him great.

PS....Stannis would not....he proved it in the last episode, when, as the one of the greatest generals in Westeros, he lead his men to certain doom by WALKING up in plain sight to Winterfell - he had given up completely....sure, he went down with a sword in his hand, but that was NOT great leadership. That was surrender. And his last words solidify it.

[Xie]

Kit has to say what the show tells him too. It's part of earning his pay check. So if they tell him to lead the viewers on a wild goose chase, that's what he'll do.

This. Also, keep in mind that they could have fibbed to him, he could honesty believe that Jon is dead. That's actually the easiest way for him to survive the broadcast season's interview circuit, because if he doesn't know, there's no way he can slip up and make a mistake.

They could tell him "hey we need you back for a couple of months this year to film flashback scenes", and who is he to argue with that? That way they stay on his work schedule, but he has no idea he's actually still alive.

They could also simply have told him to keep the second half of the year clear, and paid him a full time wage for doing just that. It's been done before.

[Katjushka]

In that same interview/Q&A (Oxford Union) where D&D tease about Jon wolf warging in season 6, the one obvious thing to me is it is a virtual Kit Harrington love-fest. D&D adore the actor and the person - and without a doubt, Jon Snow comes across clearly as their absolute favorite character (in fact at one point, I think they answer a question specifically stating that). Sure, it could have all been staged that way, but I don't think so. I think they genuinely look at Harrington as their one and only Jon Snow. He is irreplaceable. To both them and honestly, most of the viewing audience. There will be a very low acceptance of another actor taking his place, even if it's a "resurrected and changed" character.

This is also a TV show. Follow the money. The money is with Kit Harrington. He will absolutely be back. Jon Snow is too important to the story. Kit Harrington is too important to the show.

I'm quite sure that Jon in the books is not done. The show is another matter, they could change things but the reality is that Jon is no Barristan Selmy or Myranda, he's a primary character and essential to the story himself, not only as a part of someone elses plot. So changing his fate would be a huge deviation from the books, the biggest so far. (Yes, way bigger than LSH or Sansa in the Valley in my opinion) And just as important as his character, Kit is also very essential to the show. There are like under ten actors on the show that "everyone" who's watched the show even a little bit will know and he is one of the most well known, and also loved. The idea of them recasting the part is just stupid in my mind, makes zero sense.

Even if he is dead "for good," I can't imagine Jon not being in season 6 at all as Kit had mentioned. Surely we'd get to see a funeral or body dumping or Ghost mourning him. That would be a terrible way for a favorite character to just end.

This is one of the things that puzzles me the most.. Kit has been so firm in saying he's not returning to season six but surely we would get to see his funeral pyre if he was dead.

[Wouter]

This is one of the things that puzzles me the most.. Kit has been so firm in saying he's not returning to season six but surely we would get to see his funeral pyre if he was dead.

It's not difficult to be firm in a lie; not only actors but also politicians, businessmen and criminals (to name but a few) have no problems in being firm while stating lies or at least while being economical with the truth.

[Martoma]

I'm pretty sure they are lying about Jon Snow not coming back next season. I'd assume they would at least show us his funeral (burning) since they would have to continue the story at castle black anyway because Davos and Melisandre are there. They won't just go on with their stories withouh showing their reactions to Jon being dead.

[Maesteress]

This is one of the things that puzzles me the most.. Kit has been so firm in saying he's not returning to season six but surely we would get to see his funeral pyre if he was dead.

He can easily argue that as of right now, Jon Snow's story is done - and therefore he is done - on the show, because that is where the books left off. He can just as easily say, after TWOW comes out and we learn Jon's story indeed moves forward, that he's "so excited to have the opportunity to return!". It's all semantics. He will be back.

In addition (SPOILERY:) - if people want more evidence that he's already filmed his funeral pyre scene, there is an MTV interview with Carice (who plays Melisandre) that clearly indicates additional scenes have already been filmed for season 6 with her and Kit Harrington and they are going to cause a big fan reaction. You can easily find it on you tube (it's from May of 2015).

[El Guapo]

So now that Jon is dead who gets to keep Longclaw? Olly?

[Grimbold]

If that is how Jon sees the facts he has every right to commit suizide. But he is stabbed before he can do this Why should we mourn for him if they all (according to Jon's view) would die in the upcomming White Walker attack anyway?

But if that is his take on the situation, and he has no ideas about what he could do to improve it - what use is such a "leader"? And why would this be worth resurrecting?

A good leader, and a hero would at least try everything - no matter how bad the odds are against you.

And there are things he could do - even if they might not work or help in the end:

• educate his brothers about the weaknesses of the White Walkers (dragon glass, valyrian steel) and the wights (fire)

rebuild the other castles and man them with the wildlings

orgainze wood and other stuff that can burn so they can give the wights a "warm welcome"

organize supplies (send an envoy to the Iron Bank to borrow money, and buy food)

send a small group to Dragonstone to negotiate with whom ever holds it to get more dragon glass. Stannis already told him, that there is dragon glass on Dragonstone - do you remember? Sadly Jon doesn't.

send letters to Kings Landing and to high lords explaining the situation and the need for all the valyrian steel swords. Not that I think the lords would comply and send the swords immediately - but he should try anyway.

So if he was a strong leader, determined to save humanity - no matter what - there are things he could do. Stannis would!

But instead his summary is: There's nothing we can do. We're doomed.

And then Mel will resurrect him, and he will be the hero and leader again and do all that. Would be stupid. And sadly it probably will happen exactly this way.

Man, you're being way too picky and deliberatly biased, not to mention all of those things are omitted from the show's narrative to summarize and pave the way faster for Jon's "death".

He was a strong leader to the point of setting aside thousands of years of bitter rivalry, risking his own sword brothers turning on him, and bring the wildings into the fold so that they can exactly fight the Others together.

The Night's Watch, on the other hand, isn't willing to let that slide and just rather kill him for making that call.

[Wouter]

So now that Jon is dead who gets to keep Longclaw? Olly?

Whoever gets it, I'm pretty sure Jon will get it back soon after being resurrected.

[~DarkHorse~]

So now that Jon is dead who gets to keep Longclaw? Olly?

He will be put on a funeral pyre with Longclaw and come out of the flames unburnt with Longclaw glowing red. The birth of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer.

Nah, his 'rebirth' will probably just be Mel smocking the life back into him but whatever. :dunno:

[Xarkar]

Sam: "What you're gona do?" Jon: "I wont to hope the don't know how to climb the wall"

Sam: "But - the dragon glass?" Jon: "No one is ever getting that back now. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, unless we had a mountain of it." (he already forgot about Dragonstone, which Stannis had told him in the show)

Sam: "But - you killed a White Walker" Jon: "With Lon Claw" ...

Sam: "How many valyrian steel swords are left in the seven kingdoms?" Jon: "Not enough."

First that isnt the entire dialog.

Jon "He raised his hands, and they all stood up at once."

Jon "Tens of thousands of them. The biggest army in the world"

Sam "so what are you going to to"

Seriously... What is he supposed to do?

He has already sent letters to every ruler asking for support. No one has arrived.

There are less than 600 members left of the NW, (see below)

Military Strength

Late in the reign of King Robert Baratheon, the Night's Watch had dwindled to under one thousand members - many of them composed of old men, untrained boys, and convicted felons. While there are nineteen castles along the Wall, the Watch only has enough men to continue to man three of them: their headquarters Castle Black in the middle, the Shadow Tower at the western end, and their port Eastwatch-by-the-Sea at the eastern end.

The Watch took severe losses in Jeor Mormont's disastrous expedition beyond the Wall, losing nearly 300 men as a result. Combined with heavy losses during the Battle of Castle Black, as well as losses from other wildling attacks, by the time that King Stannis Baratheon arrives at the Wall the entire organization consists of only around 600 members left.

So basically, Jon, is the leader of 600 men (mostly made up of old men, untrained boys and convicted felons), and he is trying to figure out what he can do against an army that is in the tens of thousands, (so 20,000+), with no way to kill them other than Valyrian steel swords (about 200 in Westeros, 1 at the wall) and Dragonglass, of which he just lost ALL they had).

Seriously, I don't care who you are, you are going to feel down on yourself. Plus he is not showing it in front of his men, only his most trusted friend. Do you think Generals who win wars do not eve talk about risks, or how dire a situation is?

Truthfully, I would respect Jon LESS if he was pretending it was all ok and that the NW was going to stop this force that is more than 33x their size and unkillable. Jon knows he is royally screwed, and at this point, the the only real hope is that the wall can hold them back (which is what it was built for)

[The Wolfswood]

I have no doubt that Kit Harington is telling the truth when he said Jon Snow is dead and that he (KIt) will not be coming back in season 6. But 'the truth' is not the same as 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' ……….. Season 7. Why get any form of contract if it is a full 2 seasons after he left the show? He said he was annoyed at the 'inaccuracies', not that it was wholly false.

Any resurrection scene might have already been filmed. I would put it as the last scene of season 6 after Melisandre goes walk-about (with Sansa?) to re-find her mojo and accidentally finds out about R+L=J somehow. She will rush back to a deserted Castle Black alone and do a Beric Dondarrion with the discarded corpse and die in the process - because she wasn't alive anyway.