Heresy 171

[Sly Wren]

Thanks for the welcome!

You are right of course. I think I'll go have another read of the Mabinogion. Recently acquired the original Welsh language version so really excited to get stuck in actually and see any connections to ASOIAF.

I wonder if we've actually read the finale of ASOIAF somewhere but haven't made the connection yet. I don't think Martin will do this, but given that he's been influenced by history and other fantasy and mythology stories...

You can read Welsh? Color me impressed. But playing with any myth and Martin's world is fun per se. Am still suspecting the Rhiannon story might be tied to the books a bit, too--but I don't have enough at present to make it work.

As to Martin's following/using another story as pattern for his ending--can definitely see his being influenced. Doubt it's and exact copy. But speculating on the ending is half the fun of reading.

[Yield.]

Well I guess there's two ways you can look at this. I've been arguing about this for years.

The original argument was that the "Tower of Joy" was a remote hiding place, but no, its a watchtower overlooking the main road into Dorne. Its more like hiding out in a motel by the side of Route 66, and then as I've said in my Ronin essay we're suppose to believe that a Prince, a young and latterly pregnant girl, with two and later three members of the famous kings guard stayed there for months on end, pretending not to hear what was happening up above them while they bickered over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers. And as to the latter seemingly they read all about the Trident, flight to Dragonstone, the murder of Aerys and the sack of Kings Landing, but somehow missed the small notice in the Court Circular about Viserys being named by Aerys as his heir.

Not a convincing scenario and so the unanswered question has to be; did it actually happen or did GRRM simply not think it through? It could be either.

This is the problem for me with that dream. At the point in which Lya calls out for Ned we have an intrusion. Poole comes in at that exact point and tries to wake him. She calls him Eddard rather than Ned and then Lord Eddard so I'm always iffy about that really being Lyanna's voice at that moment in the sequence of the dream. Beyond that they had already engaged in fighting which would make it quite difficult to hear someone shouting at you from near by let alone from within a tower. And this is shouting at the top of her voice she would have to be doing. Yet if she was weak with fever and could scarce speak above a whisper when he got to her...just does not match up.

As to your question, the third option is that Martin left it deliberately vague.

[Black Crow]

My one (nitpicky) gripe with R+L=J is that I don't see why Rhaegar would think a union of Targaryen and Stark is necessary in any scenario. Whether he's creating the prophesied saviour or an "Antichrist" to Aegon , neither really works since the last time the Long Night was beaten, the Targs weren't even around to play a role for good or ill.

Personally, I think it would make a lot more sense for Rhaegar to try and create a child of multiple and potentially disparate First Men bloodlines, since that's what seems to be necessary for any major role in the coming winter. I guess that's why I'm a little more partial to the ideas of Arthur Dayne or Howland Reed being the father, unlikely as they are as viable candidates.

That plus the fact that according to the House of the Undying vision [as confirmed by GRRM] he thought his son by his Dornish wife was going to do the business

[Black Crow]

This is the problem for me with that dream. At the point in which Lya calls out for Ned we have an intrusion. Poole comes in at that exact point and tries to wake him. She calls him Eddard rather than Ned and then Lord Eddard so I'm always iffy about that really being Lyanna's voice at that moment in the sequence of the dream. Beyond that they had already engaged in fighting which would make it quite difficult to hear someone shouting at you from near by let alone from within a tower. And this is shouting at the top of her voice she would have to be doing. Yet if she was weak with fever and could scarce speak above a whisper when he got to her...just does not match up.

Its also worth bearing in mind that Bran's crow dream ends in exactly the same way

[Yield.]

Yes I had forgotten about that. Food for thought there.

[Voice]

Well! You made me reread than vision quest, and that's a good thing.

Bran looked beyond the curtain of light at the end of the world. Then he looked at the heart of winter. As I see it, Bran had surpassed the physical realm and then into the metaphysical, spiritual, mystical before he saw the heart. And yes, he does look into the eye full of terrible knowledge, but then looks down to see the spikes.

I think the heart of winter is the life force of winter or the heart of whatever the frozen hell Bran saw.

Bran got too close to someone's fantasy.

And, crackpottish, the heart of winter beats inside the cave o' doom. Or not. Lol.

Also, Sly Wren, now you have me trying to summon up wightified Dorothy singing 'Over the Rainbow' in a zombie voice. Lol. If you've ever played Saints Row The Third with an avatar using the zombie voice singing along to Sublime's 'What I Got' you'll get an idea of what's in my head. :rofl:

It's one of my favorite chapters in the series. I pretty much know it by heart now LOL. I'm glad you refer to it as a vision quest, because that's how I see it too. Spirit flight.

Up until and through that "north and north and north" paragraph, Bran is witnessing real events, in real places, in real time. His third eye is beginning to see the inner truths of things, and prophetic elements, but nonetheless everything see sees is in situ.

The heart of winter is as real as the Wall, and lies to the North.

After he looks into the crow's third eye, that real time perspective changes.

[Ser Kafka]

You can read Welsh? Color me impressed. But playing with any myth and Martin's world is fun per se. Am still suspecting the Rhiannon story might be tied to the books a bit, too--but I don't have enough at present to make it work.

As to Martin's following/using another story as pattern for his ending--can definitely see his being influenced. Doubt it's and exact copy. But speculating on the ending is half the fun of reading.

Yes I went to a Welsh language school, my first language is Welsh. With this in mind I can't help but read the names in the books as Welsh, and found the pronunciations in the TV show to be grating at first.

Martin's too creative to follow a pre-planned 'route', although it's fun to think if we've come across it before.

[Black Crow]

Indeed, as we've discussed before we can get a good idea of what's going into the oven but can't guarantee what's going to come out of it

[Matthew.]

I'm guessing the Children would qualify as "elder" as well, especially since they seem to commune with their long dead all the time via the net and the Singers in birds, etc.

I would say so. At one point, Leaf tells Bran that they've been living in the cave of skulls for a "thousand thousand" man years. There are also two spots in Essos - the Ifeqevron forest, and Mossovy forest - that seem to be associated with a similar magic/culture.

I may be taking a giant leap here, but I've been mentally associating some of the lost cultures of the WB with particular styles of magic--water for the squishers, fire for whoever/whatever built Asshai and the Five Forts, and ice for whatever race built K'Dath in the gray wastes.

I still don't believe any of that will end up being plot relevant to what's happening at present, but I do think it gives some hints to Martin's influences with his magic. With all of the blatant Lovecraft homages, I think Martin's world has something that's an equivalent to Lovecraft's dreamland, or Tolkien's realms of the unseen (Otherworlds?)--something that can be seen and communed with by those with the right talents, or who have had their "eyes opened" (eg, eaten weirwood paste, drank shade of the evening, had a near death experience).

[Knight and Dayne]

I do love the implied Faustian bargain of magic, particularly the prophetic kind - once you learn something about it, you're incapable of speaking like a normal person. So you end up with symbolic riddles that everyone misinterprets. See especially Quaithe and Dany's "speak plainly" exchange.

[Black Crow]

Yes I had forgotten about that. Food for thought there.

The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realised that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting, "He's awake, he's awake, he's awake."

Compare and contrast it with:

"No," said Ned with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise..."

"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.

Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes...

Note how in both, there is the initial cry, which starts the waking process, followed in Bran's case by mists swirling and shuddering around him before being ripped away as to reveal it was a serving woman who had screamed and then in Lord Eddard's case the storm of rose petals, both signifying the transition from dreaming to looking out at the real world.

[Black Crow]

I still don't believe any of that will end up being plot relevant to what's happening at present, but I do think it gives some hints to Martin's influences with his magic. With all of the blatant Lovecraft homages, I think Martin's world has something that's an equivalent to Lovecraft's dreamland, or Tolkien's realms of the unseen (Otherworlds?)--something that can be seen and communed with by those with the right talents, or who have had their "eyes opened" (eg, eaten weirwood paste, drank shade of the evening, had a near death experience).

Yes, I agree with this. It certainly influences GRRM's interpretation of the Otherworlds and, at the risk of sounding tedious, the Heart of Darkness, because although they and it might well turn out to have a geographical location, what's far more important is its location in the mind.

And again it comes back to something I suggested before about the crows; that the three-eyed crow is not necessarily Bloodraven at all, but rather that just as men send ravens [corvids] to carry messages so too do the Old Gods send crows [corvids] into men's dreams.

[Sly Wren]

I still don't believe any of that will end up being plot relevant to what's happening at present, but I do think it gives some hints to Martin's influences with his magic. With all of the blatant Lovecraft homages, I think Martin's world has something that's an equivalent to Lovecraft's dreamland, or Tolkien's realms of the unseen (Otherworlds?)--something that can be seen and communed with by those with the right talents, or who have had their "eyes opened" (eg, eaten weirwood paste, drank shade of the evening, had a near death experience).

I like this--but partly because it reminds me of Yeats' take on Irish folklore. The man who dreamed of fairyland, the madness of King Goll--once a person hears of the magics/beauty/power of the unseen world, can't un-know. If they follow--a kind of madness ensues. If they don't, they are somewhat tortured by the knowledge that it's out there for the rest of their lives.

And I'm not sure it won't be relevant--seems BR has definitely embraced that world. Bran's on the verge of going whole hog--just a question of how far he'll go and if he'll come back. But now he knows, even if he comes back, Bran's not in for a happy life. Same with Arya. Assuming might be the same for Jon.

I do love the implied Faustian bargain of magic, particularly the prophetic kind - once you learn something about it, you're incapable of speaking like a normal person. So you end up with symbolic riddles that everyone misinterprets. See especially Quaithe and Dany's "speak plainly" exchange.

Hadn't thought of that angle, but could be interesting--how does a person come back from that knowledge and communicate clearly with others? Could be an issue for Bran and/or Jon.

And again it comes back to something I suggested before about the crows; that the three-eyed crow is not necessarily Bloodraven at all, but rather that just as men send ravens [corvids] to carry messages so too do the Old Gods send crows [corvids] into men's dreams.

Agreed--and, again, not only because it reminds me of Yeats.

[Knight and Dayne]

Hadn't thought of that angle, but could be interesting--how does a person come back from that knowledge and communicate clearly with others? Could be an issue for Bran and/or Jon.

There's a wealth of medieval ideas about magic that focus on liminal spaces; literally: crossroads, doors, rivers, borders, and fences; figuratively: birthing beds, cemeteries, and, to some extent, gardens. The idea is that by pursuing the borders of the known world, you can gain forbidden knowledge, but that knowledge also gets access to you. It's a tradition of hidden magic that goes much further back than Lovecraft, but the similarities are easy to track.

The point here is, some people who pursue the borders "cross over" - like Quaithe, and maybe BR - and they know things but can't really explain them. I'd say Mel and Bran are examples of seers who haven't quite crossed over - they see things they don't understand, and are forced to interpret.

[Black Crow]

...behind the rain is my favourite

[SFDanny]

Okay we know what's being referred to so there's no need to derail the thread. Lets just stick with our own house rules and enjoy an open and sensible discussion about the books. :cool4:

Black Crow, where does one find out about the "house rules" you reference? Just through reading the early heretic threads or is there someplace specific I should look?

[Black Crow]

Black Crow, where does one find out about the "house rules" you reference? Just through reading the early heretic threads or is there someplace specific I should look?

The OP at the beginning of each thread and the first line of my signature block

ETA: with regards to your links I can go along with most of it, but not your unlinked 4th essay. Given the emphasis which the three ronin place on their loyalty to King Aerys in what are literally their last words, I really don't see them choosing to disobey his last command.

And with that, good night to you all, old and new

[SFDanny]

The OP at the beginning of each thread and the first line of my signature block

ETA: with regards to your links I can go along with most of it, but not your unlinked 4th essay. Given the emphasis which the three ronin place on their loyalty to King Aerys in what are literally their last words, I really don't see them choosing to disobey his last command.

And with that, good night to you all, old and new

Thank you, Ser. You are a gentleman and a scholar as always.

[Sly Wren]

Maybe it was actually Aerys that ordered her kidnapping...

I've seen this point a few times and have to admit I can't see why Aerys would do that--leverage over the Starks? If so, why the "pretense" of her being abducted out of love/lust? If Aerys did order it, would that mean she was imprisoned in Kings Landing?

If I'm missing the obvious (or not so obvious) on this--by all means, just throw it at my head. Hopefully then I'll get it.

[wolfmaid7]

I've seen this point a few times and have to admit I can't see why Aerys would do that--leverage over the Starks? If so, why the "pretense" of her being abducted out of love/lust? If Aerys did order it, would that mean she was imprisoned in Kings Landing?

If I'm missing the obvious (or not so obvious) on this--by all means, just throw it at my head. Hopefully then I'll get it.

One route i can see is if he planned to take out the Stark alliances and his own son.