The Reach is unrealistically powerful

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I got the impression that being a good knight in Westeros doesn't necessarily mean you're a good warrior (and vice versa). They're just not mutually exclusive of course.

Please, define "knight".

Apparently, you don't use the "warrior of a feudal society, with unparalleled training and equipment" one.

[Destroyer of Nations]

Cersei told me that Margaery Tyrell sucks, and quite well. But when I tried to confirm that in person, Margaery just laughed at me.

I laughed reading this, I couldn't help myself.

[Mithras]

The Gardener Kings warred with Kings of the Rock, Storm Kings, Dornishmen and ironborn reavers since the dawn of days. Reach is very rich, the most populous and they have a strong military tradition. In fact, the current Reach was once home to four large kingdoms. So, Reach is naturally more powerful than any of the traditional Seven kingdoms.

And the true weakness of the Reach lies in this fact. The Kings/Lords of Highgarden had a difficult time in keeping in check so many strong vassal Lords that can individually be a match for even the Lords Paramount of some other regions,

[hodorisfaclessman]

throughout their history the old gardener kings waged war with various other kings , being surrounded by so many potential enemies without natural defensive borders stumped their growth

then you have the comming of the targs and the upjumped tyrells taking power

since then between total targ rule through dragons and civil wars including roberts rebellion

we also see a lot of intermarriage between the tyrells in their family tree and powerful vassals ...clearly they were consolidating in the post dragon age.

[Stormland's Fury]

I mean like actual knights are far more romanticized within the setting.

Most Northerners, Ironborn, Wildlings, Sellswords and so on are not knights yet it doesn't prevent them to be great warriors.

[Humble Maester]

I mean like actual knights are far more romanticized within the setting.

Most Northerners, Ironborn, Wildlings, Sellswords and so on are not knights yet it doesn't prevent them to be great warriors.

An average Reachman knight would easily beat an Ironborn, Wilding or a Sellsword warrior due to overall superiority.

[Stormland's Fury]

Apparently, you don't use the "warrior of a feudal society, with unparalleled training and equipment" one.

And that's an indication? Not many knights in the North yet they had tactical victories against very well-equipped Westerlanders, a plot point even being that they had trouble finding experienced people.

[Stormland's Fury]

An average Reachman knight would easily beat an Ironborn, Wilding or a Sellsword warrior due to overall superiority.

Yes, in average no doubt, but it's not a guarantee.

[Humble Maester]

And that's an indication? Not many knights in the North yet they had tactical victories against very well-equipped Westerlanders, a plot point even being that they had trouble finding experienced people.

North has it's knight-equivalent in armored horsemen, which are knights in all but name.

Yes, in average no doubt, but it's not a guarantee.

A knight will beat any other type of warrior most of the times. Only few non-knights could face a knight, and those would be mostly the ones with similar training without the status.

[Stormland's Fury]

Yes, but it was indicated that being a knight makes a better soldier by default. But when thrown against a similar equipped opponent there's no difference in the end.

Most times yes, but there are examples like Bronn in the Vale. I'm not saying that knights are worse than other fighters, just that their title alone is no indication how good they actually are.

[Victor227]

The whole notion of knighthood is just a ribbon on a sword, as Sandor would put it. It makes the sword more pretty, adds a bit of romance and tradition to it, but the whole point is the sword. A knight is trained from infancy to wield weaponry, and they squire under knights to learn equipment maintenance and other intricacies. Tournaments are the closest thing to warfare outside of actual warfare, jousting providing vital practice, and melees and other events creating a small-scale competitive combat environment. Historically, knights would often be divided into teams for mock-battles (oftentimes quite dangerous in their own right). It was great training to be certain. - Though it may have promoted internal competition rather than focusing the energies of a kingdom outward.

While knighthood itself doesn't automatically mean they're a great warrior (house heirs and such in the South, regardless of combat ability, may just coast into it as was the case with Duck and his lord's son), it's certainly not an inferior lifestyle for producing warriors, and the North does engage in most of the same practices for producing their own armored lances.

[Free Northman Reborn]

OK, so I have an issue with the Reach's power, but that's what Martin gave them so I have to accept it.

But what I find difficult to understand is the lack of reverence or consideration they are given in the planning of the other great Houses.

Given their numeric strength, one would think that in any war, the first priority would be to try and find out how you can get the Reach on your side. Kind of like the USA in the real world. And yet, they are treated as almost an afterthought by the likes of Tywin, Robb, Euron, Doran, Cersei, the Vale etc. Catelyn is utterly shocked by the size of Renly's army, whereas in truth she should have been constantly obsessing about the strength of the Reach the moment the Northern forces crossed the Neck.

No one takes them seriously enough, considering how ridiculously overpowered Martin has made them.

[Stormland's Fury]

The whole notion of knighthood is just a ribbon on a sword, as Sandor would put it. It makes the sword more pretty, adds a bit of romance and tradition to it, but the whole point is the sword. A knight is trained from infancy to wield weaponry, and they squire under knights to learn equipment maintenance and other intricacies. Tournaments are the closest thing to warfare outside of actual warfare, jousting providing vital practice, and melees and other events creating a small-scale competitive combat environment.

While knighthood itself doesn't automatically mean they're a great warrior (house heirs and such in the South, regardless of combat ability, may just coast into it as was the case with Duck and his lord's son), it's certainly not an inferior lifestyle for producing warriors, and the North does engage in most of the same practices for producing their own armored lances.

Agreed. Well put together.

[Gibzit]

OK, so I have an issue with the Reach's power, but that's what Martin gave them so I have to accept it.

But what I find difficult to understand is the lack of reverence or consideration they are given in the planning of the other great Houses.

Given their numeric strength, one would think that in any war, the first priority would be to try and find out how you can get the Reach on your side. Kind of like the USA in the real world. And yet, they are treated as almost an afterthought by the likes of Tywin, Robb, Euron, Doran, Cersei, the Vale etc. Catelyn is utterly shocked by the size of Renly's army, whereas in truth she should have been constantly obsessing about the strength of the Reach the moment the Northern forces crossed the Neck.

No one takes them seriously enough, considering how ridiculously overpowered Martin has made them.

Nobody really ever expects the entire Reach to be united behind the Tyrells, so I guess Cat's surprise comes from the fact that many houses from followed the Tyrells in backing Renly's cause even though his legitmacy is questionable.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Also in my view the Reach along with the Riverlands is the region that benefited most from Targaryen rule. Once the realm became united, they could focus their numbers on growth and wealth, rather than on defending their vulnerable position in the middle of Westeros, with better located enemies on all sides.

At any given time the Reach could be invaded by the Westerlands, the Stormlands, Dorne or the Ironborn. And when engaging in war with one, any of the others could use the opportunity to strike while the fire was hot.

I leave out the Riverlands from this list, because they seem to have been just as exposed as the Reach. And the Vale seems a bit far away to have engaged in forays into Reach territory - although I guess it is not entirely impossible.

So the four kingdoms of the Reach in ancient times were quite literally each facing an enemy kingdom of greater strength than itself, if one each was allocated the Ironborn, Dorne, the Stormlands and the Rock.

Even once combined into a single Reach kingdom, they were still not powerful enough to be confident of easily handling two simultaneous invasions from opposite sides at any given time. Hence their losses of territory at various times to the Stormlands, Ironborn and Westerlands.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

And that's an indication? Not many knights in the North yet they had tactical victories against very well-equipped Westerlanders, a plot point even being that they had trouble finding experienced people.

Yes, those are men-at-arms: knights in training and equipment. The only difference is the vigil and the septon smearing some oils on them.

A minority in both cases.

[Stormland's Fury]

The only difference is the vigil and the septon smearing some oils on them.

Same can be said about knights and similar equipped and trained troops. Which was my point.

[Universal Sword Donor]

If he is truly King of Westeros as he claims, Kingslanding is his seat and he shouldn't be starving it. Just like he should be imposing King's Peace on the Riverlands instead of holding tournaments.

He's not King of Reach and Stormlands, he claiming the whole Kingdom, he should actually do something to get them to back him.

He has enough men to take Kings landing, execute Joffrey,eliminating his chief rival and winning himself a propaganda victory. At practically no risk to himself. He has enough men to besiege the city, to threaten Tywin's home and place a blocking army between Tywin and Kingslanding.

You need to actually win battles to finish a war.

As I have said twice before in this thread, if he waits too long the Riverlands is going to resolve into either two situations:

1. Robb wins and wonders why he should bend the knee to a Southron King who didn't aid him. Perhaps the Greyjoys and Vale follow him.

2. Tywin wins, forcing the North and Riverlands to bend the knee to Joffrey and marches on Renly with his men and Rivelanders and Northmen who turn coat.

Only when Robb and Tywin are balance against each other, is Renly's arrival a good idea. He can ally with Robb and smash Tywin while winning back the Riverlands and North hopefully into his Kingdom.

You're really, really overestimating Robb's position. Even assuming the IB don't attack the North, Robb still has to defend the RL or risk losing them, but he's gotta go back North at some point too. Tywin was able to split his force and light up the RL. Renly can do that 3x over. Renly can send 20K through Tywin's path of destruction.

And Tywin? He'd probably get some of the Riverland houses to march, but he has to beat Robb substantially enough to do so that he can't win or retreat North. The northerners aren't fighting for Joffrey outside of men directly commanded by Roose maybe (assuming Rickard is still executed). Most of the reason they marched south was to free Ned. Many of the most powerful bannermen stayed loyal till the end and even then Daven thinks their loyalty is dubious. So let's toss in the Freys, Brackens, and "Darrys". That gets him maybe an additional 10K (likely could be more but gotta account for desertion/loyalty/casualties/harvest)? Tywin gets to march on Renly with an army thats still smaller than the one he has to fight. Even if he got *every* RL and northman who fought, here's what it would look like:

Renly - 80K marching up the Rose Road, 10K behind and prolly a good chunk left in the SL. Plenty of supplies, possibly a navy

Tywin - ~70K (might be a bit higher. hard to fully count the RL muster), half the army has been through a year of fighting, and the RL is pretty much barren because of the war

Northmen - 20K

RL - 20K

Stafford's host - 10K

Tywin's host - 20K

Tywin still has to feed all forces and a starving city of 500K while fending off Renly and a possible invasion/bloackade from Stannis. It'd be a feat to accomplish half of that.

[John Suburbs]

The balance of power shifted dramatically during the WotFK, with Casterly Rock gaining control of the Riverlands and the Neck via the Frey alliance. And with Tyrion married to Sansa, Tywin is only one baby boy away from gaining the north as well. That would give Casterly Rock the ability to field an army that is at least equal to, or probably even surpassing, anything that Highgarden could muster.

That is why Lady O conspired with Littlefinger to kill Tyrion at the Purple Wedding, not Joffrey.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That is why Lady O conspired with Littlefinger to kill Tyrion at the Purple Wedding, not Joffrey.

Seems a bit of a leap. They can just marry Sansa off to another Lannister.