Characters you just DO NOT understand people like

[pettes]

I just don't like him. Wasn't he ready to kill Arya in GoT when she whent missing? I didn't like him when he said Bran would be better of dead than live as a cripple. Those are my reasons. My personal favorite is Stannis he gets as much hate as he gets love on here. I respect everyone who doesn't like him.

When a Stannis fan doesnt like Jaime because he wanted to murder an innocent child...

[rayarts]

When a Stannis fan doesnt like Jaime because he wanted to murder an innocent child...

:cheers:

[rayarts]

somehow the last 4 pages became about Jamie being a villain or not....

[Syphon the Sanitator]

What the whatting what? I can put up a much better defense of Jaime against this particular charge. It'll be all false, of course, since I believe he's guilty as hell but still!

It's really a thing? Because Bran became a Greenseer?

So if something guided Bran up that tower at that moment in time and that something also made Jaime behave in a certain way, we can safely assume that whatever power Bran is going to serve/Brynden Rivers serves is a gigantic dick.

[Winter's Cold]

Jaime is definitely a villain. He may have sympathetic reasons, i.e. his love for Cersei. However, he committed treason, pushed a child from a window, threatened to fling Edmure's child from a catapult. He is also one of the people primarily responsible for the WOTFK due to his adultery with Cersei.

[Dofs]

Yes in A Song of Ice and fire. Unless you can argue that people in-universe would not consider the act villainous? Jaime was a guest in the Stark's home, and how threw Bran from a window. That's villainous as far as I can tell, and I'm not going to be convinced otherwise by bullshit claims about protecting his children. He broke the law by committing treason anyway, so he (and Cersei) created that danger in the first place. Committing a further crime to cover that up just adds more black marks to their names

I was kinda half serious with the comment. Just pushing a kid from the window is an evil act. GRRM, thought, argues that the context of this act does not make Jaime a bad guy. A quote from one of his interviews was already posted, here is another quote:

"Obviously a lot of people, when Jaime throws Bran out the window, and we like Bran, we've seen his good points, tend to think that makes Jaime a bad guy. But then you understand, if you understand the situation, if Bran goes back and tells what the saw, and is believed, Jaime will be put to death, his sister will be put to death, and there's an excellent chance that his own children will be put to death.

So I said to my friend, what would you do if some other eight year old kid was in a position to say something and you knew that would mean the death of your own young daughter. And he said, that eight year old kid is dead! And this is what we would consider a moral man.

So how do you make that choice? The abstract of the morality vs. the lives of your own children. I mean, I don't know that I'm a prostelitizer who says this is the answer to that, but I have to question the painful, difficult question, the difficulty of the choice, that's what I think makes powerful fiction."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/game-of-thrones-season-3-characters_n_1854918.html

So, according to author (and I agree with him), this was not intended to be Jaime's complete Moral Event Horizon that makes him completely nonredeemable

There is nothing textual that supports Jaime caring about hiskids living or dieing. He only starts to care about them in ADWD and that's very little.

That's completely ridiculous. Yes, we do know that Jaime did not feel any fatherly feelings towards his children. That, thought, doesn't mean it didn't matter for him who would die - Bran or his children.

.

[Destroyer of Nations]

Jaime is definitely a villain. He may have sympathetic reasons, i.e. his love for Cersei. However, he committed treason, pushed a child from a window, threatened to fling Edmure's child from a catapult. He is also one of the people primarily responsible for the WOTFK due to his adultery with Cersei.

:agree: However, I do like reading his chapters. He's a very interesting character. I just never forgt what he is and what he has done.

[Criston of House Shapper]

He's not a villain, he's just flawed. He pushed Bran out of the window because of his love for Cersei, not just for fun. He killed someone everyone else wanted to kill anyways, and by doing so chose the lives of half a million of people over his personal honor, which makes him a hero in my eyes.

I really don't understand all the Arthur Dayne fans because we don't really know anything about him. And the Sand Snakes suck in the books just as much as in the show.

[Destroyer of Nations]

He's not a villain, he's just flawed. He pushed Bran out of the window because of his love for Cersei, not just for fun. He killed someone everyone else wanted to kill anyways, and by doing so chose the lives of half a million of people over his personal honor, which makes him a hero in my eyes.

I really don't understand all the Arthur Dayne fans because we don't really know anything about him. And the Sand Snakes suck in the books just as much as in the show.

I don't follow that. I believe he pushed Bran because of his love for Cersei but I don't believe he killed Aerys because of the people of King's Landing. Jaime is obviusly very arrogant and has an inherent sense of entitlement and is quite selfish. I believe he killed Aerys because he thought it was going to make him a hero, it would give him a chance to be as great as Ser Arthur Dayne, to be sung about like the Dragonknight. A chance to get out of hs father's shadow. He merely justifies it by saying I did it to save the people of King's Landing.

[Anath]

Ned resigned the handship over the Dany incident. That means he gave up a huge amount of power or at least was willing to. He likely kept one of the last Targaryens safe from death because he was an "innocent"

He also swallowed his honour to protect his children, more innocents again

He rebelled against the mad king in his own words to stop the murder of children

He stared down the great Bobby B over a wolf

He put himself in huge danger to save cersei and her children from death because they were "innocent"

That's a nice bit there for doing his part for the innocents...of course there are some things he can't change e.g. being outvoted on the issue of Dany but what else could he do but stay and try to change things from the inside?

And his resigning helped Dany how? Did he do something to help the innocent who was in danger? No, he didn't. But his honour was safe, so it was all peachy with him. And he didn't even want the power he resigned, so it wasn't as if he was giving up something he wanted.

He did so for his own children. Big difference. He had no regrets killing the Night Watch deserter because he reneged on his duty. Earth to Ned: his duty was to stay firm in the face of the injustice, sacrificing the most precious things he had since it was no less than what he demanded of others.

Yes, he started a war against the mad king to stop the murder of children, in his own words. In words alone. He ran back to Robert to reconcile as soon as Lyanna died because Robert condoning the murder of children and rewarding the one who ordered it was so much different than when Aerys did it. At least Aerys had the defense of being mad. Robert was just a dick. A dick that Ned kept lionizing to his children after this unpleasant murder of children business. I see no reason to think he wouldn't have reconciled with him again after Dany's sad, sad death.

He stared down the great Bobby B. over a wolf - is this supposed to impress me? Ned is great at staring people down, judging them, shouting and basically doing nothing.

He didn't think he was putting himself in danger over the Cersei matter, although I agree he acted out of conviction that her children were innocent.

There was something he could have done to try and save Dany - send a warning, anything. He didn't.

No wonder he and Barristan Only Loves His Honour Selmy got along so well.

[sweetsunray]

I'm going to use the same source as someone else because I read through it a bit :P

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=3

"Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I've asked people who do have children, "Well, what would you do in Jaime's situation?" They say, "Well, I'm not a bad guy – I wouldn't kill." Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he's going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, "Yeah, I would kill someone else's child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent." These are the difficult decisions people make, and they're worth examining."

He was protecting himself, Cersei and his children even if he wasn't thinking about them at the time.

He commits treason and a crime by copulating with the queen and have 3 bastards with her, in the first place. GRRM's dilemma isn't really a fair point. He should add, would you kill someone else's child to save your own after it was you who committed the crime to begin with. For example, you rob a bank for money but you're not really evil and do not intend to kill anyone (hell you don't even bring a fake gun along, just a note that declares you're robbing them, while holding your hand in your pocket), a child witnesses you later to pull of your mask. Oops, now there's a witness that might put your ass in jail, and your children without a parent. So, you're gonna kill the kid? If you do, then you're a villain imo. No dilemma. You put yourself there. Murdering people to cover up your trail of misdeeds doesn't make you 'complex' or 'grey'. No that borders between machiavelistic and psychopathic. My pupils can alwasy try to cheat on exams. But if you've get caught, then don't make a scene, shift the blame. If you do the crime, you must be willing to pay for it too.

The average score on Hare's pscyhopath's scale is 0-4 out of 40 for empathic people. Those are the people that are grey and may do something wrong or even awful once in their or twice in their lifetime with the deepest regret. At least 96% of the population falls in that category. But if we look at convicts then the average score in prison is 24-27, and those that pass the 30 mark are clinically diagnozed as psychopaths. Villains and criminals always stack up crimes and misdeeds, because it leads to a trail of attempts to cover up the initial one. The need to cover up your other crimes does not justify you at all and is the worst moral defense, because it's typically only immoral people do to begin with. In my personal llfe, I know exactly why I stay far and clear from people who might only score a 15/40 on Hare's scale, because I know they will behave too irresponsible and will let someone else take the fall for them. I know the risk of ending up used or harmed or hurt is way up there already with someone like that. The more callous someone is about thier crimes and misdeeds, the higher the score will be.

With false moral dilemma's as the one GRRM puts forward, the trap usually is to create a situation to convince 96% of the people who'd never even consider doing such a thing, because they don't get in such situations in the first place that they would do the worst in extrenous circumstances. But the 96% people wouldn't get into such extrenous exceptional situations anyhow. And in this way the false dilemma hopes to make a case that what the 4% not so good + machiavelists + psychopaths commit as crimes and misdeeds is not "bad" after all. But it's a falsehood.

[Dofs]

I believe he killed Aerys because he thought it was going to make him a hero, it would give him a chance to be as great as Ser Arthur Dayne, to be sung about like the Dragonknight. A chance to get out of hs father's shadow.

That's completely false, though. His plan was to kill Aerys and get away unnoticed, not known by anyone that he killed the king. He failed to do it because Lannister forces entered the throne room just after he slit Aerys' throat and saw him.

[sweetsunray]

That's completely false, though. His plan was to kill Aerys and get away unnoticed, not known by anyone that he killed the king. He failed to do it because Lannister forces entered the throne room just after he slit Aerys' throat and saw him.

And he wanted someone else to take the fall for it too.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

That's completely false, though. His plan was to kill Aerys and get away unnoticed, not known by anyone that he killed the king. He failed to do it because Lannister forces entered the throne room just after he slit Aerys' throat and saw him.

One thing escapes my memory: did he kill Rossart BEFORE or AFTER killing Aerys?

[Anath]

So if something guided Bran up that tower at that moment in time and that something also made Jaime behave in a certain way, we can safely assume that whatever power Bran is going to serve/Brynden Rivers serves is a gigantic dick.

Basically. Or it's just us valuing humanity in people more than prophecies and great destinies. I know it's true for me. That's the same reason I dislike the arguments like, "Rhaegar was right in acting as he did because prophecy and even if he had to sacrifice his family, he was still right because prophecy!" That's one of the reasons I can never warm up to Stannis whom I really like. You act placing anything else before humanity of... well, humanity, and your own, and you lose points with me.

I am not sure that a world populated by elevated beings devoted to the greater good is a place worth to be living in.

Anyway, I don't believe anything made Jaime behave in certain way - other than Jaime himself. The man never does things by half. When he's a villain, he's a full one. And rational thinking is nowhere near his top 5 modes of functioning.

[sweetsunray]

One thing escapes my memory: did he kill Rossart BEFORE or AFTER killing Aerys?

Before

[Dofs]

And he wanted someone else to take the fall for it too.

Like who?

One thing escapes my memory: did he kill Rossart BEFORE or AFTER killing Aerys?

Rossart before, but other pyromancers after.

[James of the Blackwater]

I never said Stannis was "truly evil", just evil. And no matter how right he sometimes is or how many dry jokes he cracks,

it will never redeem his evil actions for me. He is a compulsery character, not the most boring one in the books, but still - I just

wish him all the worst...

So how is he evil? The only person of power that takes the wildling threat seriously and takes action, the only one of power who wants to save the realm and knows the others are an actual threat. Because he burns people? Let's take a look at the people he has burned, Alester Florent who was doing deals with Tywin behind Stannis's back and was going to sell Shireen to the Lannisters as a hostage, and cannibals that is about the extent of people who have been burned. Because he killed Renly? He offered him fair terms, Renly rebuked him and was the one who was commiting true treason, he had no lawful claim, and said himself that he wanted his brother dead, yeah great guy.

In fact there you go, I don't know how people liked Renly, he was the one was who motivated by ambition to attain power. He's the one who left Ned there with his pants down, running away in the middle of the night like a coward and got Ned killed, Stannis offered him very fair terms and he laughed it off like it was some joke. Renly is one of my least favorite characters yet some people love him.

Is Stannis perfect? For from it, he is very flawed, and not really even a good guy, but to say he is evil, I just think that is stretch.

[sweetsunray]

Like who?

Rossart before, but other pyromancers after.

Quote about Rossart

When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?"

"Rossart's," answered Jaime.(aSoS, Jaime II)

Quote about Jaime's intention to leave and have someone else be blamed or praised for it.

Ser Elys Westerling and Lord Crakehall and others of his father's knights burst into the hall in time to see the last of it, so there was no way for Jaime to vanish and let some braggart steal the praise or blame. It would be blame, he knew at once when he saw the way they looked at him . . . though perhaps that was fear. Lannister or no, he was one of Aerys's seven.(aSoS, Jaime II)

[Destroyer of Nations]

That's completely false, though. His plan was to kill Aerys and get away unnoticed, not known by anyone that he killed the king. He failed to do it because Lannister forces entered the throne room just after he slit Aerys' throat and saw him.

You are completely right. My sincere apologies, I just searched through my e-books and you are right. I made an assumption on a mistake.

Still don't like Jaime though. :)

I actually can't believe I missed that. I have re-read the books several times.