Characters you just DO NOT understand people like

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

That's the most normal human MALE thing in the book. Guys at that age are dumb. Pretending that he's supposed to be somehow better is insane. It boggles my mind that any guy who's been that age doesn't understand what he did. Sure it was stupid and fatal but I totally get it. It made him MORE relatable to me.

Love the irony of Dany Dans being sexist.

[~DarkHorse~]

That's the most normal human MALE thing in the book. Guys at that age are dumb. Pretending that he's supposed to be somehow better is insane. It boggles my mind that any guy who's been that age doesn't understand what he did. Sure it was stupid and fatal but I totally get it. It made him MORE relatable to me.

:agree:

He had also just found out that Winterfell had been burned and his little brothers had been murdered by his best friend. He probably blamed himself for not listening to his mother about Theon. The poor guy had a moment of weakness, can you blame him? The real issue is not that he slept with Jeyne but that he went on to marry her. It was honourable but foolish. Jeyne knew what she was getting into, if she wanted to keep her maidenhead in tact then she shouldn't have went along with it. He should have left her with moon tea and left it at that. However, people are too harsh on Robb with this one, especially when he was so young and hurting at the time.

[Anath]

Ooookay then O_o Man, no offence to your friend but "I can't dislike someone who can fight" is the stupidest/most naive thing I've heard in a while. By that rationale, if he gets robbed and beaten black and blue by the robber, he can't dislike the guy because "he could fight!"

Also:

Kahl Drogo/the Dothraki in general; a whole culture that has rape, murder, pillaging and enslavement as their sole modus operandi and doesn't even pretend otherwise. Not very admirable imho. Also, the way I see it what Dany had with Drogo was Stockholm Syndrome, not love.

Yes to everything! Stockholm to the boot.

And no, he isn't my friend. He used to be my brother's friend. And he protested VERY loudly when I shooed them from my room and closed the door because I was the big and strong sister. Cognitive dissonance, I know.

I asked him if he was a Cersei fan. His answer? "Are you kidding me? She's a fucking insane murderer, to top everything else."

I could only roll my eyes... But the point is, Gregor Clegane does have his admirers. And for the life of me I cannot understand that.

[Adaneth]

I asked him if he was a Cersei fan. His answer? "Are you kidding me? She's a fucking insane murderer, to top everything else."

I could only roll my eyes...

:lmao:

That's really funny coming from a Gregor Clegane's fan.

[Greg B]

That's the most normal human MALE thing in the book. Guys at that age are dumb. Pretending that he's supposed to be somehow better is insane. It boggles my mind that any guy who's been that age doesn't understand what he did. Sure it was stupid and fatal but I totally get it. It made him MORE relatable to me.

Eh.

1. Unlike most teenage boys, Robb Stark can likely get as much tail as he has time for (granted he's a little busy, but...).

2. Real-life teenage boys sacrifice the pursuit of tail all the time for goals that are more important to them.

3. Many a teenage boy would sleep with Jeyne Westerling, but only a son of Eddard Stark would cause a political crisis in the middle of a war to preserve her honor.

Robb is a good character, in my opinion, but I don't buy excusing his fatal flaws with the "typical teenage boy" stereotype. More like "teenage boy high on power and glory who tries to follow in his father's footsteps all the way to the grave."

[Frey Pie]

That's the most normal human MALE thing in the book. Guys at that age are dumb. Pretending that he's supposed to be somehow better is insane. It boggles my mind that any guy who's been that age doesn't understand what he did. Sure it was stupid and fatal but I totally get it. It made him MORE relatable to me.

Christ yes!!

He's what 16? Dead dad, dead brothers, sisters in captivity. Leading thousands of men in war and they all think he's a hero. Pressure? Yup? Was he down in the dumps? Sounds like it.

People always focus on the consequences as if he wasn't a teenager who fell in love/got too horn. And nobody ever focuses on his great points...now that's bias

And no the reasons do not excuse him completely but come on...its extremely understandable

[TheLightning Lord]

Villains that have an interesting arch to read but make me go "Whot?" as far as having a fan base that the fans hate better characters just because they're more decent human beings than the ones they are fans of: Theon, Ramsay, Jaime (though I love reading Theon and Jaime chapters)

Jaime and Theon are villains in your eyes? Included in the same sentence as Ramsay?

:laugh: :unsure:

[HexMachina]

Jaime and Theon are villains in your eyes? Included in the same sentence as Ramsay?

:laugh: :unsure:

Its not villainous to throw a child from a window now?

[sweetsunray]

Jaime and Theon are villains in your eyes? Included in the same sentence as Ramsay?

:laugh: :unsure:

You've cut quite a lot of my post to make it look odd.

I put them together to show that the word "villain" has a wide range of characters it can be applied to.

Jaime threw a kid from a tower, and extremely callously too. So, yeah, he's a villain imo. A villain with some sympathetic qualities no doubt. And I'm not a Jaime-hater + I enjoy his POV chapters and the way he was written immensely. But in our world, he belongs in jail for the rest of his life for that crime alone that is irredeemable.

Theon is a villain for murdering innocent people to save his face. He drowns a septon who never did any harm to him, nor even protested against his take-over of WF to a god he doesn't even frickin' believe in. He then also allows his men to murder 2 miller boys, again children who never harmed him, disobeyed him, etc, has them skinned (+ their mother and father) and flaunts them on a wall. He belongs in jail for the rest of his life for those multiple crimes too. There is no excuse whatsoever for these actions. None. He can weep and cry over them for the rest of his miserable life and feel guilty about it. Good! Doesn't mean I think he deserves to be reeked, or that I can't sympathize with his Ramsay ordeal. And I love reading his chapters. Still, none of whatever he may do to try and make up for it, will ever really make up for it.

Ramsay is a villain because he's a sadistic psychopathic fuck.

[Nevets]

Littlefinger. The man murdered the previous hand, lied to Ned and Catelyn about that (through Lysa), and lied to Them about the dagger, essentially starting the War of the Five Kings, and he continued betraying the Starks, right up to the end of FfC (he isn't in DwD). He is a psychopath who cares about absloutely no-one else, yet people not only like him, but actually support what he does. Ugh!

[The Wolves]

Its not villainous to throw a child from a window now?

From the way Jaime is defended nope it isn't villainous to throw a innocent child to their death.

Some would argue that he was doing it for the good of the millions of people in Westeros that he forgot to think about when he started banging his sister but suddenly started thinking about when he tried to kill a child.

[TheLightning Lord]

You've cut quite a lot of my post to make it look odd.

I put them together to show that the word "villain" has a wide range of characters it can be applied to.

Jaime threw a kid from a tower, and extremely callously too. So, yeah, he's a villain imo. A villain with some sympathetic qualities no doubt. And I'm not a Jaime-hater + I enjoy his POV chapters and the way he was written immensely. But in our world, he belongs in jail for the rest of his life for that crime alone that is irredeemable.

Theon is a villain for murdering innocent people to save his face. He drowns a septon who never did any harm to him, nor even protested against his take-over of WF to a god he doesn't even frickin' believe in. He then also allows his men to murder 2 miller boys, again children who never harmed him, disobeyed him, etc, has them skinned (+ their mother and father) and flaunts them on a wall. He belongs in jail for the rest of his life for those multiple crimes too. There is no excuse whatsoever for these actions. None. He can weep and cry over them for the rest of his miserable life and feel guilty about it. Good! Doesn't mean I think he deserves to be reeked, or that I can't sympathize with his Ramsay ordeal. And I love reading his chapters. Still, none of whatever he may do to try and make up for it, will ever really make up for it.

Ramsay is a villain because he's a sadistic psychopathic fuck.

Well I don't think it's quite that's simple. 99% of characters in this world have done bad things at some point. Some more than others of course, and yes there is no excusing Jaime's rash act. But lumping amazingly complex characters like Theon and Jaime in with a psychopath like Ramsay seems foolish to me.

[sweetsunray]

From the way Jaime is defended nope it isn't villainous to throw a innocent child to their death.

Some would argue that he was doing it for the good of the millions of people in Westeros that he forgot to think about when he started banging his sister but suddenly started thinking about when he tried to kill a child.

:lmao: Yeah that one is a doozey defense. Let's not forget that the fall, prompts Joffrey to send a catspaw to Bran to put him out of his misery, and has Catelyn sailing for KL to be tricked into believing Tyrion did it, her arresting him, etc. Nice "save", Jaime!

[sweetsunray]

Well I don't think it's quite that's simple. 99% of characters in this world have done bad things at some point. Some more than others of course, and yes there is no excusing Jaime's rash act. But lumping amazingly complex characters like Theon and Jaime in with a psychopath like Ramsay seems foolish to me.

I didn't call them psychopaths did I? I called them villains, and I already explained to you why: the word can be applied to a broad range of villains, from the interesting one to the ones you can sympathize with and those that have no soul.

BTW it was by no means a "rash" act. He had time to think about it. He even pulled Bran up for a moment, then grinned and shoved him making his famous callous statement. Bran even sighs in relief, thinking he'll be alright after all, before Jaime drops him. There's nothing "rash" about it. It's deliberate and premeditated and almost sadistically callous.

[mormont]

[mod] Folks, let's not start making this personal, OK? Opinions are fine, but there is a distinction between the opinion and the person who holds it. Don't mix them up. [/mod]

[FealtyToStannis]

Daenerys, without a doubt.

[Adaneth]

Jaime threw a kid from a tower, and extremely callously too. So, yeah, he's a villain imo. A villain with some sympathetic qualities no doubt. And I'm not a Jaime-hater + I enjoy his POV chapters and the way he was written immensely. But in our world, he belongs in jail for the rest of his life for that crime alone that is irredeemable.

Theon is a villain for murdering innocent people to save his face. He drowns a septon who never did any harm to him, nor even protested against his take-over of WF to a god he doesn't even frickin' believe in. He then also allows his men to murder 2 miller boys, again children who never harmed him, disobeyed him, etc, has them skinned (+ their mother and father) and flaunts them on a wall. He belongs in jail for the rest of his life for those multiple crimes too. There is no excuse whatsoever for these actions. None. He can weep and cry over them for the rest of his miserable life and feel guilty about it. Good! Doesn't mean I think he deserves to be reeked, or that I can't sympathize with his Ramsay ordeal. And I love reading his chapters. Still, none of whatever he may do to try and make up for it, will ever really make up for it.

Ramsay is a villain because he's a sadistic psychopathic fuck.

:agree:

Littlefinger. The man murdered the previous hand, lied to Ned and Catelyn about that (through Lysa), and lied to Them about the dagger, essentially starting the War of the Five Kings, and he continued betraying the Starks, right up to the end of FfC (he isn't in DwD). He is a psychopath who cares about absloutely no-one else, yet people not only like him, but actually support what he does. Ugh!

I have to say I don't like Littlefinger at all. He is intelligent and cunning but there is something in him which I kind of despise.

I do like Varys though and it's not like he's good. Go figure. :unsure:

[Fat Mac]

I have trouble labelling Jaime as a villain, personally. He's definitely guilty of villainous actions, but to call him a villain oversimplifies his character, imo. Also, who is he a villain to? The Starks initially of course, but the one Stark he directly mutilated is no where near him and not opposed to him in any sense of the word. Their stories diverged as soon as Jaime pushed Bran from the window. He was definitely a villain to Cat and Robb, but they're both gone and he swore an oath to Cat, one he's currently trying to uphold.

He may be considered a villain to us readers, but obviously the matter is split. Many don't view Jaime as a villain. One of the most pure characters in the story surely doesn't. Perhaps I have the definition of villain wrong, because I don't think Jaime fits, at least in my view.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Brienne. She seems so dull, and her POV's are among the most

[Anath]

Many don't view Jaime as a villain. One of the most pure characters in the story surely doesn't. Perhaps I have the definition of villain wrong, because I don't think Jaime fits, at least in my view.

In my eyes, Jaime is definitely a villain. Stannis' words about good not obliterating the bad and so on should be the way to go in real life, IMO, but it never works this way. There are actions that define us and too often, they're single acts that are extraordinary by nature - both good and bad. To me, the way Jaime went about Bran in both actions and mindset makes him a villain. Initially, he tried to pull him inside and he reconsidered, didn't he? He made the choice to turn to evil.

He's also a hero in waiting when he's the only one suggesting that they protect someone in need. Not a pure maiden but a woman of certain age whose crown cannot protect her from her husband. Darry and Hightower can go to drown and take their honour with them, for all that I care. And his actions towards Brienne are anythig but those of a villain. So what?

I adore the villain/hero Jaime. I loved him for his cockiness even when I still disliked him heartily, in Game of Thrones when Robb took him captive. But a villain he is. Just not only this.

Gregor Clegane would be a villain in my eyes even if he devoted the rest of his life to the rescuing of stray kittens.