Rhaegar is a bad person

[Destroyer of Nations]

I cannot for the life of me figure out why there is so much butthurt, vitriol, and overall nastiness to each other in this thread. This is especially extended to the anti-Rhaegar folks.

We get it. You hate Rhaegar (for some strange reason). But it looks silly. The reader doesn't even have enough information about the character to come up with all these wild accusations.

The angry, anti-Rhaegar fervor is bizzare.

I thought by now that it was obvious that Rhaegar was painted an asshole in the first novels for a reason. Think about who initially talked so terribly about him. The reader is then given hints that Rhaegar was not the scumbag rapist that we were initially led to believe that he was.

Isn't that obvious? I know that isn't something that GRRM did without reason.

I used to despise Rhaegar too. But if you keep reading and pick up what GRRM is putting down you should be figuring out that he wasn't a demon.

Aren't you the big man? We cannot say he's a bad guy but you (meaning Rhaegar apologists) can shove him down our throats on every single thread? You get to bash Robert for being a biased, whoremongering, raping, wife-beating drunk but we can't call Rhaegar a paedophilic, raping, creep obsessed with a prophecy? The double standard is hilarious.

[Anath]

Aren't you the big man? We cannot say he's a bad guy but you can shove him downj our throats on every single thread? You get to bash Robert for a biased, whoremongering drunk? The double standard is hilarious.

You know what else is hilarious? His assumption that everyone should see the light like he has.

It was the complete opposite for me. I started as a Rhaegar fan and then I figured he had strong leanings towards black for reasons that had nothing to do with Robert's bashing of him. Who would have thought it possible! Not believing Robert and still disliking Rhaegar!

[stateofdissipation]

Lol. You need to keep it in mind that the events told in ASOIAF do not take place in the 21st century real world.

Then providing an example of an event where the daughter of a lord runs away and is married without her father's consent should be a snap.

[Mithras]

Then providing an example of an event where the daughter of a lord runs away and is married without her father's consent should be a snap.

Next was Prince Jaehaerys, now Prince of Dragonstone. Though King Aegon had acquired a distaste for the Valyrian custom of incestuous marriage during his years amongst the smallfolk, Prince Jaehaerys was of a more traditional bent, for from a very early age he had loved his sister Shaera and dreamed of wedding her in the old Targaryen fashion. Once aware of his desires, King Aegon and Queen Betha had done their best to separate the two, yet somehow distance only seemed to inflame the mutual passion of this prince and princess.

Prince Jaehaerys was not as forceful as his brother, but when Duncan defied his father to follow his own heart, and the king and court yielded to his desire, the younger prince did not fail to take note. In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera fourteen at the time of their wedding. By the time the king and queen learned what had happened, the marriage had already been consummated. Aegon felt he had no choice but to accept it. Once again the king had to deal with the wounded pride and anger of the noble houses thus affronted, for Jaehaerys had been betrothed to Celia Tully, daughter of the Lord of Riverrun, and Shaera to Luthor Tyrell, the heir to Highgarden.

[Destroyer of Nations]

You know what else is hilarious? His assumption that everyone should see the light like he has.

It was the complete opposite for me. I started as a Rhaegar fan and then I figured he had strong leanings towards black for reasons that had nothing to do with Robert's bashing of him. Who would have thought it possible! Not believing Robert and still disliking Rhaegar!

Exactly! I quite like Robert but I make myself no illusions about what he is and I certainly don't take as a reliable narrator when it comes to Rhaegar. Robert has nothing to do with how I view Rhaegar.

[Cladinator]

Aren't you the big man? We cannot say he's a bad guy but you (meaning Rhaegar apologists) can shove him down our throats on every single thread? You get to bash Robert for being a biased, whoremongering, raping, wife-beating drunk but we can't call Rhaegar a paedophilic, raping, creep obsessed with a prophecy? The double standard is hilarious.

Oh, cry me a river.

I actually like Robert and never said any of those things. I don't know why I'm getting roped into some anti-Bob argument.

All I was saying is that you don't have enough textual information given by the author to come to these conclusions.

Aren't I the big man? Booooo-Hooooo.

Stop acting like you're such a victim.

[Lady Darry]

Next was Prince Jaehaerys, now Prince of Dragonstone. Though King Aegon had acquired a distaste for the Valyrian custom of incestuous marriage during his years amongst the smallfolk, Prince Jaehaerys was of a more traditional bent, for from a very early age he had loved his sister Shaera and dreamed of wedding her in the old Targaryen fashion. Once aware of his desires, King Aegon and Queen Betha had done their best to separate the two, yet somehow distance only seemed to inflame the mutual passion of this prince and princess.

Prince Jaehaerys was not as forceful as his brother, but when Duncan defied his father to follow his own heart, and the king and court yielded to his desire, the younger prince did not fail to take note. In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera fourteen at the time of their wedding. By the time the king and queen learned what had happened, the marriage had already been consummated. Aegon felt he had no choice but to accept it. Once again the king had to deal with the wounded pride and anger of the noble houses thus affronted, for Jaehaerys had been betrothed to Celia Tully, daughter of the Lord of Riverrun, and Shaera to Luthor Tyrell, the heir to Highgarden.

Yeah, but they were 14&15. Rhagear was 22 and Lyanna was 15.

[stateofdissipation]

Next was Prince Jaehaerys, now Prince of Dragonstone. Though King Aegon had acquired a distaste for the Valyrian custom of incestuous marriage during his years amongst the smallfolk, Prince Jaehaerys was of a more traditional bent, for from a very early age he had loved his sister Shaera and dreamed of wedding her in the old Targaryen fashion. Once aware of his desires, King Aegon and Queen Betha had done their best to separate the two, yet somehow distance only seemed to inflame the mutual passion of this prince and princess.

Prince Jaehaerys was not as forceful as his brother, but when Duncan defied his father to follow his own heart, and the king and court yielded to his desire, the younger prince did not fail to take note. In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera fourteen at the time of their wedding. By the time the king and queen learned what had happened, the marriage had already been consummated. Aegon felt he had no choice but to accept it. Once again the king had to deal with the wounded pride and anger of the noble houses thus affronted, for Jaehaerys had been betrothed to Celia Tully, daughter of the Lord of Riverrun, and Shaera to Luthor Tyrell, the heir to Highgarden.

Where does that come from?

by-the-by that is a king not a lord... the king's son ran away and was married without his father's consent...

Great example if Lyanna and Rhaegar were Aerys's children and Rhaegar had not yet been married.

[Destroyer of Nations]

Oh, cry me a river.

I actually like Robert and never said any of those things. I don't know why I'm getting roped into some anti-Bob argument.

All I was saying is that you don't have enough textual information given by the author to come to these conclusions.

Aren't I the big man? Booooo-Hooooo.

Stop acting like you're such a victim.

That's why I put Rhaegar apologists between brackets. It's not my fault you count yourself amongst the apologists.

[Cladinator]

You know what else is hilarious? His assumption that everyone should see the light like he has.

It was the complete opposite for me. I started as a Rhaegar fan and then I figured he had strong leanings towards black for reasons that had nothing to do with Robert's bashing of him. Who would have thought it possible! Not believing Robert and still disliking Rhaegar!

I'm not assuming anybody should "see the light."

But you'd think that we could at least read the same book and draw similar conclusions.

You can cry all you want. I'm not even talking about opinions of Rhaegar. My opinion of Rhaegar is that he sounded like a candy-ass.

What I know about him is very little, and just as much as everyone else that has read the novels.

[Cladinator]

That's why I put Rhaegar apologists between brackets. It's not my fault you count yourself amongst the apologists.

I can't find anywhere in anything that I've typed something that makes me an "apologist."

The point I was making is that we don't have enough information from the author to draw such ridiculous conclusions.

There's still two books left. For all I know Rhaegar will end up being as nutty as his dad. But nobody, not the "Rhaegar apologists" or the anti-Rhaegar camp, can say with any kind of certainty.

[Anath]

I'm not assuming anybody should "see the light."

But you'd think that we could at least read the same book and draw similar conclusions.

You can cry all you want. I'm not even talking about opinions of Rhaegar. My opinion of Rhaegar is that he sounded like a candy-ass.

What I know about him is very little, and just as much as everyone else that has read the novels.

Really? Then why did you feel the need to be The Knight of the Laughing Tree to poor vilified Rhaegar if you don't care? Butthurt much?

Since I don't follow Robert threads, would you give me the link to where you proclaim yourself the High Septon, prosecutor, judge and executioner each time someone bashes Robert for being worse than he was?

[Cladinator]

Really? Then why did you feel the need to be The Knight of the Laughing Tree to poor vilified Rhaegar if you don't care? Butthurt much?

Since I don't follow Robert threads, would you give me the link to where you proclaim yourself the High Septon, prosecutor, judge and executioner each time someone bash Robert for being worse than he was?

Haha. Was I playing the Knight of the Laughing Tree? No, I'm not Butthurt at all. I'm doing just fine.

And no, I can't provide a link to where I proclaim myself the High Septon, prosecutor, judge and executioner each time someone bash[sic] Robert for being worse than he was because I never said I rushed to a fictional character's aid when someone criticizes him.

I've seen enough of your derision on the forum to wave you off. I was given a warning point last week for being rude. You're not worth that trouble.

[Lord Varys]

Aegon V chose to accept the secret marriage of his children. Not to mention that the consummation of that marriage was apparently already known when the king learned of it - else Aegon V could have pretended it never happened at all. But Egg supposedly loved his children and he and Betha most likely allowed their children to have their way because they understood that they should not stand in the way of their happiness.

But Aerys II wasn't exactly caring about Rhaegar's happiness in 282 AC. If he along with Rickard Stark, Robert Baratheon, and Doran Martell had opposed this mad polygamy/second marriage idea they could have unmade the marriage, by brute force if necessary.

As to Rhaegar-Lyanna:

She was still a very young girl back at Harrenhal while Rhaegar was a man in his twenties. A responsible person doesn't take advantage of a young girl or encourages her advances if he is married - and if them having an affair could cause major trouble in the medieval setting you are both living in - not to mention he doesn't abduct her. I don't say Lyanna wasn't taken by Rhaegar, I'm saying that Rhaegar being a lot older could be pretty good hint that this wasn't a relationship among equals and thus not exactly a fairy-tale romance.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

As to Rhaegar-Lyanna:

She was still a very young girl back at Harrenhal while Rhaegar was a man in his twenties. A responsible person doesn't take advantage of a young girl or encourages her advances if he is married - and if them having an affair could cause major trouble in the medieval setting you are both living in - not to mention he doesn't abduct her. I don't say Lyanna wasn't taken by Rhaegar, I'm saying that Rhaegar being a lot older could be pretty good hint that this wasn't a relationship among equals and thus not exactly a fairy-tale romance.

You know, if you accept the official, Robert-approved version of the events as 100% factually accurate, all that effort is completely unnecessary. According to it, Rhaegar, damn that black heart of his, kidnapped and raped Lyanna, so his villainy is very much self-evident. Case closed. There are some unfortunate implications of such an assumption (i. e. Ned was a gigantic asshole for blaming Lyanna, Joffrey was far too nice to him; and, at the end of the day, Cersei was right - Robert was the clever one, as he was pretty much the only character in the story who correctly assessed Rhaegar), though. But hey, maybe at the end of the day Ned was a huge asshole, Robert was the clever one, and we already got the full backstory in an early chapter of the first book.

(Although, if that is so, why does the author keep coming back there, as if there was more to the story? That's just silly).

[NorthGirl]

Here. Hope that clears it. Post yours, bold mine. The fucking princess of Dragonstone didn't find the way she should have found to be smuggled out. Automatically, you absolve Rhaegar of any responsibility of her death because she should have found a way to outsmart everyone. In a court that she never lived in before becoming hostage, might I add. Rhaegar was the one who had. Your post makes it as she should have been able to unearth each secret passage with her bare hands.

An interesting assumption, that whoever was in charge of their security fucked up. Almost as if Rhaegar didn't leave anyone in specific charge of their security. But he couldn't have done this, could he? He took such touching care of Lyanna who needed to be protected against her brother, betrothed and the people who thought they were saving her. He couldn't have left his first family with people who were only loyal to Aerys and their new Crown Prince, the one Aerys always preferred anyway, so they wouldn't die trying to save Elia and her children.

Feel free to make any kind of assumptions. I do it as well. But don't say you didn't write something that you did. If you meant something else than what is written very plainly, say so. Because the way you worded it here, it is straight victim blaming.

Let's make some things clear:

-Rhaegar not being at fault for her death does not mean Elia is.

-I never said "Elia was stupid to get out of there" so maybe it sounded like I am saying she was in the wrong but I don't understand how elaboration on my part doesn't clear up my meaning.

-

I must not speak very good english because I always assumed using "should have" for a situation means that for some reason the thing that should have happened didn't. I am saying it should have been possible for her to escape. I said her specifically because her status is important and she should've been a priority. Now let's use this sentence: "The fucking president of the USA should have been able to find a way out of the Oval office when a strike was announced against the white house". Does this sentence sound like I am saying it's his fault if he gets blown up? No, it sounds like I am saying he had incompetent security detail. Anyone else tell me how the senyence sounds because I must be having basic reading comprehension problems to see how someone goes from my sentence to "well it's her fault she was raped and murdered along with her kids."

Here is the definition of victim blaming from http://definitions.uslegal.com/v/victim-blaming/(anyone who knows better than me tell me if it's not legit):

Victim blaming is a devaluing act where the victim of a crime, an accident, or any type of abusive maltreatment is held as wholly or partially responsible for the wrongful conduct committed against them.

In my response post I said thatfor it to be victim blaming I would have to say it's her fault Tywin ordered her and her kids' deaths. I am not saiyng that. The reason why I was talking about her presence in the Red Keep in the first place was to argue that saying he left her there as if it was a sure thing they would get overthrown and that KL would get ransacked by Tywin (which was decided because Rhaegar died) because he couldn't care less if she lived or died is not valid. Her presence at the Red Keep should not have been a death sentence since I don't believe that they had to kill the kids and I certainly don't believe the Mountain had to rape and murder her. I am laying the blame at the feet of the people who made an active decision to cause this the one who gave the order and the perpetrator; Tywin and the Mountain+the other dude.

Sorry I wasn't victim blaming, my first post saying that whoever was in charge of her safety effed up should have pointed to me not thinking it's her fault for being where the King of Westeros ordered her to be. And my second post saying that even if she consciously chose to stay, it was completely reasonable and there is no fault on her part not wanting to go out in the war torn woorld with her young kids instead of trying to negotiate her way to safety.

I am sorry I am not enthusiastically joining in on the baseless accusations that he did not care for Elia's life because he left her in two places where her life should have been safe. Dragonstone is hard to get to as an enemy, it's just that the Mad King ordered her to come to KL and the Red Keep was accessible because Pycelle convinced them to open the gates and therefore there was little preparedness for resistance when Tywin got zealous.

How it even got to victim blaming I don't know... all I see is someone ready to jump down the throat of another disagreeing and deciding to apparently only read one sentence out of paragraphs and refusing the follow up explanation offered. Anyway, I make it a point to only have so many back and forths, people are probably getting bored of this. But thanks for this completely open and enlightening exchange where I felt like my interlocutor was acually trying to have a dialogue. Becasue a simple "Sorry this sounds like you're saying it's Elia's fault what haappened to her" was apparently too open to discussion a phrasing and did not enough value judgement injected into it.

[Pox Americana]

I'm sure Rhaegar has had plenty of time to reflect on his bad decisions these past 20 years. Uniting the Free Folk is a large task, but bound to have some down time.

[NorthGirl]

I will just say this. I was happy to see this thread because I was thinking "oh thank god, here is a thread where Rhaegar is not a tragic altruistic hero that rescued the damsel from meanie Aerys, was actually smartly helping the Stark daughter to prevent tensionq and was in love with her too so it doesn't sound like he was using her for political gain or as a prophecy promised incubaor". Now I am disappointed that middle ground doesn't seem to be a thing. Maybe that should be a thread.

[Cladinator]

I will just say this. I was happy to see this thread because I was thinking "oh thank god, here is a thread where Rhaegar is not a tragic altruistic hero that rescued the damsel from meanie Aerys, was actually smartly helping the Stark daughter to prevent tensionq and was in love with her too so it doesn't sound like he was using her for political gain or as a prophecy promised incubaor". Now I am disappointed that middle ground doesn't seem to be a thing. Maybe that should be a thread.

As we've seen, some people can't take other's interpretation of characters from a fictional, fantasy series.

I don't know the exact post where things went off the rails in this thread (possibly the original post) but it's safe to say we can't have a normal discussion about our differing opinions without a few people getting excited.

I'm actually pretty dumbfounded by how a couple people got so defensive and whiny about honest opinions and interpretations.

For what it's worth, I enjoyed reading your posts.

[Anath]

I must not speak very good english because I always assumed using "should have" for a situation means that for some reason the thing that should have happened didn't. I am saying it should have been possible for her to escape.

Thanks. That's what I wanted to know.