Greece II or: How I learned to stop worrying and love the euro.

[dalThor]

dalT - I am not in Austin, but I do work at a big Uni where we kind of get the speaker's circuit stuff for that world on a regular basis, so I'm hoping Yanis makes it through. I swear I will get a picture taken with him and talk with him about how Nazi's suck.. Don't get me wrong; it's not that I think he's 100% right about stuff. I just think he's an amazing character.

I also hope I'm not coming off as too cavalier about this situation as it's obviously dead-serious, and I agree with your's and other's suggestions that this there is blame to go around here. Hell, one of the things that's fascinating in all of this theater is how completely different groups have played their part. For example, there's been so much disparaging stuff about "Greece" over the years as if that's one profligate individual. It is obviously so much more complicated than that. Whatever one thinks of Tsipras and Varoufakis and all that, they have only been in power pretty much for this calendar year.

It has been fascinating to read all of the commentary on SYRIZA. I have seen the complete gamut from "they are political neophytes who have no clue what they are doing" to "they are masterminds who have been dead set on leaving the Euro since day one" and everywhere in between.

For what it's worth, and I am just one reader seeing things from another country a half a world away...I would be tempted to vote "no." I do not believe there are any good options here; only a choice of lesser evils. But I was already leaning that way before his last-minute IMF report, and that puts me over the edge. "No" is scary and leaving the EU should it come to that is scary, but if the Troika won't budge, I don't see how you stay with the devil you know in a situation like that.

Hell, for a few weeks even I thought he was a rock star. No offense taken whatsoever.

I saw a headline in Greek the other day, "Tsipras; genius or crazy?"

I'd vote no as well, if I didn't think the latter adjective were true. My formal position is that Greece needs to leave the EZ under leadership capable of handling the changeover. As it stands this may, in one way or another, be one of the most crucial days in my life and I have not one iota of control over it.

(I think I confused you with SJohn who is, or was, in Austin.)

So, do we have an Greek posters here who can gauge how the vote seems to be going?

I think I'm for Greece voting no and trying to get some semblance of their sovereignty back. Globalization seems a failed experiment, with Greece one of the prime examples of the failure, to me.

Polls here aren't always reliable. The last polls were released Friday and depending on who's doing the polling each side has a lead within the margin of error. It's really anyone's guess but suffice it to say, Greece is so divided that I think many members of each camp will have a have time talking to their friends and relatives tomorrow.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Happend to Bush, too. People wouldn't accept that a president coud make so stupid calls, so they assumed he had a plan.

Here it is even stronger, because the republican party has less fanatic supporters in europe than the extreme left (ok, parts of the "Anti-deutschen" kind of kept pro bush...). So it is, how could be one of us be so stupid. Might it be our entire ideology, which is stupid? This can't be, he must be a genius.

The line is quite clearly drawn between outside commentators who mostly support their own political or economical point of view without actual knowledge about the situation and inside commentators who really worked the negotiation.

*cough* *cough* Tea Party *cough* *cough*

In all seriousness, the GOP has more than their fair share of cazies.

Bachmann, Huckabee, Cruz, Santorum or the Donald.

Somehow the Republican preliminaries has thus far always managed to wheat out the most crazy ones. Tsipras and Varoufakis, that would be the European's left answer to a Trump-Bachmann Presidency.

[Biglose]

*cough* *cough* Tea Party *cough* *cough*

In all seriousness, the GOP has more than their fair share of cazies.

Bachmann, Huckabee, Cruz, Santorum or the Donald.

Somehow the Republican preliminaries has thus far always managed to wheat out the most crazy ones. Tsipras and Varoufakis, that would be the European's left answer to a Trump-Bachmann Presidency.

Yeah, they are all from europe...Look thats like talking about members of syriza. That you are supported in the more extreme wing of your own party should be given.

[ThinkerX]

Hmm...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/stop-lying-to-the-greeks-life-without-the-euro-is-great-2015-07-02

Will the euro-fanatics please stop lying to the people of Greece?

And while they’re at it, will they please stop lying to the rest of us as well?

Can they stop pretending that life outside the euro — for the Greeks or any other European country — would be a fate worse than death?

Can they stop claiming that if the Greeks go back to the drachma, they will be condemned to a miserable existence on the dark backwaters of European life, a small, forgotten and isolated country with no factories, no inward investment and no hope?

Those dishonest threats are being leveled this week at the people of Greece, as they gear up for the weekend’s big referendum on more austerity. The bully boys of Brussels, Frankfurt and elsewhere are warning the Greek people that if they don’t do as they’re told, and submit to yet more economic leeches, they may end up outside the euro … at which point, of course, life would stop.

Bah.

I sense a high degree of bias here.

But the chart is interesting.

At this point, I am starting to wonder if the threat of military force might not be employed to keep Greece in the EU.

[Jon AS]

At this point, I am starting to wonder if the threat of military force might not be employed to keep Greece in the EU.

No, that is a ridiculous idea. Particularly since the talk is about Greece leaving the Euro, not the EU.

[Arakan]

Apparently Yannis accused the creditors of "terrorism" against Greece and the Greek people.

Yeah, that will help to increase solidarity from the other Euro countries.

[midi]

Hmm...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/stop-lying-to-the-greeks-life-without-the-euro-is-great-2015-07-02

I sense a high degree of bias here.

But the chart is interesting.

At this point, I am starting to wonder if the threat of military force might not be employed to keep Greece in the EU.

Haha you're kidding right? Almost all the big euro countries are divided as f**k as to whether it's better to keep the Greece in the euro and pay for Greece III package or cut our losses from Greece I and Greece II and let them go from the euro.

If the Greek people choose to "opt-out" there's no doubt they'll get the OK! from the EZ

[ThinkerX]

Reason for that thought is if Greece leaves today, then other countries may decide to exit tomorrow. Sets precedent, maybe means end of EU and Euro both...

Ok, way past my bedtime...

[Hereward]

Europe doesn't have a military, so the point is moot (and crazy).

[ThinkerX]

Europe doesn't have a military, so the point is moot (and crazy).

Then who attacked Libya?

[A Horse Named Stranger]

The French Airforce.

WHat he meant is, there is no Unified European Army.

Ofc, there's the English, German, French, Spanish, Italian etc. military.

But no EU Military. There's no common EU defense force. There's not even a EU Defense Policy as such.

[Maltaran]

Then who attacked Libya?

That was NATO

[midi]

Then who attacked Libya?

Those were either NATO operations or certain European countries acting on their own behalf (France, UK). Not a unified European force. Of course the various European countries have their OWN militaries. But not a single troop from my country was sent to Libya.

What he no doubt meant to say was that the EU has no army, and thus can not enforce anything militarily. It is a union of countries based on the preservation of peaceful relations. The whole idea is off the wall and contradictory to everything the EU stands for. The politicians who would even try to decide something like that would get voted the F out with their whole parties.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

The French Airforce.

WHat he meant is, there is no Unified European Army.

Ofc, there's the English, German, French, Spanish, Italian etc. military.

But no EU Military. There's no common EU defense force. There's not even a EU Defense Policy as such.

Most EU countries also have very weak militaries compared to how rich and large they are.

Germany wouldn't be able to use its military to force Greece to do anything, for example, regardless of if the rest of the EU would let them or not.

[Arakan]

Most EU countries also have very weak militaries compared to how rich and large they are.

Germany wouldn't be able to use its military to force Greece to do anything, for example, regardless of if the rest of the EU would let them or not.

Yeah maybe we should build our own Nuclear Waepons...Jesus Christ.

Are we living in the 19th century or what?

[midi]

Yeah maybe we should build our own Nuclear Waepons...Jesus Christ.

Are we living in the 19th century or what?

There were nuclear weapons in the 19th century?

Even the Romans knew: Si vis pacem, para bellum. Many European countries have really become much too lax with their national defence. Russian troops could be in Poland before encountering any worthwhile military resistance. It's stupefying how weak and pathetic much of Europe has become. (Not that I think EU should have it's own army or that any EU country should ever be using their military against another EU country)

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

There were nuclear weapons in the 19th century?

Even the Romans knew: Si vis pacem, para bellum. Many European countries have really become much too lax with their national defence. Russian troops could be in Poland before encountering any worthwhile military resistance. It's stupefying how weak and pathetic much of Europe has become. (Not that I think EU should have it's own army or that any EU country should ever be using their military against another EU country)

Indeed. The issue isn't really that they would be in Poland before encountering heavy resistance either, but rather that there is nothing behind Poland.

Germany (and France, and Italy etc) should find a balance in terms of national defense. It is not like the only two options are 1: military vacuum or 2: 19th century imperialism/Adolf Hitler.

Anyway this is Off Topic. But there is no way that Greece is going to get invaded for not paying their debts.

[Arakan]

There were nuclear weapons in the 19th century?

Even the Romans knew: Si vis pacem, para bellum. Many European countries have really become much too lax with their national defence. Russian troops could be in Poland before encountering any worthwhile military resistance. It's stupefying how weak and pathetic much of Europe has become. (Not that I think EU should have it's own army or that any EU country should ever be using their military against another EU country)

First: excuse my pathetic typo oh mighty one who knows some Latin proverbs...should I feel impressed?

As I said: 19th century :). Back in that time, a country was indeed considered "weak" and "pathetic" without a "mighty" military.

I say to you and Khaleesi: stop playing too much Counterstrike or Total War and embrace the reality of the globalized world of the 21st century.

Germany had a sufficient strong military in the Cold War era, when it was neccessary. If (and that's a hypothetical if) the neccessity arises again, Germany and other EU countries will respond.

[Arakan]

Indeed. The issue isn't really that they would be in Poland before encountering heavy resistance either, but rather that there is nothing behind Poland.

Germany (and France, and Italy etc) should find a balance in terms of national defense. It is not like the only two options are 1: military vacuum or 2: 19th century imperialism/Adolf Hitler.

Anyway this is Off Topic. But there is no way that Greece is going to get invaded for not paying their debts.

Yep that's OT.

But before judging, please inform yourself. Today's armies are an effect of a different world security situation. When it was neccessary West Germany had 540k active military personnel with some 2,500 MBTs and over one million active reserve. But we are living in 2015 and not 1990.

To even mention (supposed) pathetic military capabilities in the context of the Greek crisis is not only OT but idiotic (at best).

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

First: excuse my pathetic typo oh mighty one who knows some Latin proverbs...should I feel impressed?

As I said: 19th century :). Back in that time, a country was indeed considered "weak" and "pathetic" without a "mighty" military.

I say to you and Khaleesi: stop playing too much Counterstrike or Total War and embrace the reality of the globalized world of the 21st century.

Germany had a sufficient strong military in the Cold War era, when it was neccessary. If (and that's a hypothetical if) the neccessity arises again, Germany and other EU countries will respond.

The reality in which Russia is right now invading neighboring countries, is regularly flying nuclear bombers towards capitals around the Baltic Sea only to turn back at the last second, and has started openly threatening other neighbors with nuclear war if they cooperate more with NATO? Tell the Ukrainians that living in the "globalized" world of 2015 is so different from 1990.

It is you who should stop playing Euro Truck Simulator and other such typical German games where nothing happens.