Are female characters in the ASOIAF judged more harshly than the male ones ?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I won't deny that but let's be honest, Cat hate is waaaaaay more common.

Yes, but for one, Cat is a much more important character than Stannis and has a POV of her own, and second, most of it would be a result of their respective relationship to Jon Snow.

[MasterK-Bob]

1. Cersei is a horrible stupid person just clever enough to take advantage of those good people who want to trust, who wantonly harms others out of apathy, ambition, and sight sadism towards enemies. No hatred of her from my has a anything to do with her being a woman.

2. Sansa was a fool who selfishly ruined the lives of others, who after a period of utter helplessness where she showed very limited situational strength as she suffered tremendously as a result in large part of her own foolish and selfish actions. She has transitioned from fool to tool and I see no evidence that she will go from tool to player. In no way have her subsequent actions redeemed her selfish stupid actions from AGoT, put perhaps her redemtive suffering has. I don't dislike Sansa. I mostly pity her, but she is not likeable and maybe she couldn't have been the way she is believably if she had been male, but femininity as a prerequisite for the kind of dislikeable she is does not meam that it is because of her feminity.

3. Mel likes burning people, including children, alive, and to a large extent seems deluded. She's not a very good person, but I don't dislike her. I'm certainly rooting for her side.

4. Cat, I didn't dislike Cat at all after AGoT, but I thought she was a huge bitch in AGoT to Jon Snow. She had too much pride to tolerate a husband's indiscretion and took it out on a child, upon whose life she had a seriously negative effect. Nevertheless, overall I think she was a good but imperfect person.

5. Arianne, I have no dislike for her at all. I wish she were more clever in her plots, but overall I think she's a good character.

6. Brienne is a very interesting character who is a girly girl without looks who has always enjoyed fighting and has taken to it. She wants to be the princess but while she's not, she's committed to being as honorable as possible but none of her plans ever work out.

7. Dany, I like her a lot. I don't understand the Dany hate. She is in a bad situation that she admitttedly created and watching her deal with ithad been a ittle boring. But she created that situation doing a very good thing in seriously attempting to abolish slavery in the lands of its most aatrocious practitioners. She is a very strong character dealing relatively well in a very difficult circumstance.

8. Arya is awesome. She's going to dark places but overall I think she's a good person with a lot of anger and a lot of reason to be angry. She was never going to be weak.

[Shierak_qiya]

I do believe that they are judged more harshly.
And mostly because of their gender.
Obviously, I am not saying that all those who hate female characters are being sexist (not to mention there are many female readers who hate them as well) but I think that even in 2015 there is a tendency to be more judgemental of women's actions as opposed to men's.

Take Jon Snow's decision to behead Janos Slynt.
Even though I don't particularly like him as a character, I found that scene quite badass, as did the majority of the readers.
But I am utterly certain, and no matter how hard you try to prove me wrong, that if such a thing had been done by a female character such as Sansa, Daenerys or Catelyn, most would have whined about it.
"Janos Slynt just refused to obey him, that's no fair treatment", "Jon's turning into a dictator", "That's not how you earn your men's respect".

I am not stereotyping, I know that some do judge both genders equally, but still, I'd say that 50% of the readers -at the very least- would have turned a blind eye to some harsh and gory actions if they had been taken by men.

[James of the Blackwater]

If Cat would of agreed with Robb on Jon becoming the heir of Winterfell, I imagine there would almost be no hate for her

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If Cat would of agreed with Robb on Jon becoming the heir of Winterfell, I imagine there would almost be no hate for her

I don't see how it would be possible.

[James of the Blackwater]

I don't see how it would be possible.

How she would agree, or how there would be no hate?

[sweetsunray]

Take Jon Snow's decision to behead Janos Slynt.

Even though I don't particularly like him as a character, I found that scene quite badass, as did the majority of the readers.

But I am utterly certain, and no matter how hard you try to prove me wrong, that if such a thing had been done by a female character such as Sansa, Daenerys or Catelyn, most would have whined about it.

"Janos Slynt just refused to obey him, that's no fair treatment", "Jon's turning into a dictator", "That's not how you earn your men's respect".

But Arya takes out several creeps or shits as well, either by naming them to Jaqen or killing them herself. There are many who are very much disturbed by it (no young girl should be as murderous and angry as that), but she's not hated for it by most. Many understand this and think her badass.

While I love Arya's arch and have a lot of sympathy for her, I do hope she gets to be more than the "angel of death-revenge" in the story. If that's all she'll ever be, I'll probably would come to dislike it. Not because she's a girl, but because eventually it becomes too 1 dimensional for me.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

How she would agree, or how there would be no hate?

The later. Because as far as I have seen the hate for her isn't because of Robb's will.

[James of the Blackwater]

The later. Because as far as I have seen the hate for her isn't because of Robb's will.

Yeah, the Jon Snow fans who hate her would probably hate her less though.....What are some of the other reason's for her hate? Arresting Tyrion without thinking things through? Leaving Bran and Rickon at WF? Releasing Jaime?

[Frey Pie]

Most characters get too much judgement on this forum regardless of gender

[Balerion the kitten]

Yeah, the Jon Snow fans who hate her would probably hate her less though.....What are some of the other reason's for her hate? Arresting Tyrion without thinking things through? Leaving Bran and Rickon at WF? Releasing Jaime?

There's those who blame her for Ned's death, because she encouraged him to go to KL. Which i think is just plain silly imo

[James of the Blackwater]

There's those who blame her for Ned's death, because she encouraged him to go to KL. Which i think is just plain silly imo

I would agree, Ned's honor is to blame for Ned's death, not Cat

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

No. I think that most people use the "females are judged more harshly than men" excuse just because they cannot accept that not everyone like the characters or some female characters. On the other hand tho, I have seen many posters judge males more harshly than females.

I agree.

With certain characters (Dany) some fans willingly ignore misdeeds, not because she's a woman; but because Martin wrote her as an attractive woman.

The giveaway is when they place blame on an "ugly" slave for literally being unable to restore the dead to life.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yeah, the Jon Snow fans who hate her would probably hate her less though.....What are some of the other reason's for her hate? Arresting Tyrion without thinking things through? Leaving Bran and Rickon at WF? Releasing Jaime?

I am Jon's fan and I loathe Cat. However that has to do with the emotional abuse and the fact that she threw him out of the only house he knew because she was a petty, spiteful, egotistical, arrogant, narcissistic, close minded, pathetic, the lowest of the low bully. However even I don't hate her for Robb's will because it was Robb's choice, by nagging she was proved to be what I already knew that she was and nothing more.

I agree.

With certain characters (Dany) some fans willingly ignore misdeeds, not because she's a woman; but because Martin wrote her as an attractive woman.

The giveaway is when they place blame on an "ugly" slave for literally being unable to restore the dead to life.

Oh yes! How could I forgot that? I have discussed with people who actually use the "ugly" thing in order to defend their opinion about MMD, Robert and about SB.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I am kinda new in this forum but going by some of the topics it gave me the impression that the four major POV female characters who are typically " lady like" spark the most division of opinion.

So I am just wondering what have Sansa, Cersei , Catelyn and Dany done so drastic that the male characters haven't done which earns them such a huge amount of negative popularity .( I can see in Cersei's case though but rest of the three are a bit more difficult )

And also even though characters like Arya( who is literally a bloody assassin with a unsatiable streak for revenge ), Brienne ( who is as naive as Sansa was if not more) And Arianne ( who blatantly goes against her dad for selfish motives) get a clean chit because they are not typical fantasy world ladies.

Sansa is written to be extremely unpleasant in book 1 and the change in her is slow. She's an elitist, superficial bully, like the ASOIAF version of a Rom Com Cheerleader who must learn humility. She thinks 'I will make them [smallfolk] love me', even members of her family can't muster much affection until things go very, very badly. You either move past book 1 Sansa or you just can't get on board.

Dany makes horrendous errors, gets by a lot on luck where characters like Ned and Robb make less drastic mistakes and are killed for them.

Cat made an innocent boy's life miserable but Ned handled that whole situation horribly. Cat didn't react well but Ned just tried to ignore Jon's effect on her that she then took out on Jon. Cat also saw that her daughters were not educated half as well as herself and didn't show any appreciation for Arya's difference like Ned did even if he didn't really approve.

Cersei gets a pass because we know she's doomed. She's crazy. She has people experimented on!

Arya and Brienne at least get by because they are sympathetic underdogs with no gaping character problems. So Arya has killed a few people to survive. Honestly, people wouldn't be half as concerned about that if she were a boy because boys are expected to grow up to be killers. That is what a knight is. In Sandor's harsh truth, Ned was a killer, Robb was a killer, Sansa's sons will be killers.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

Sansa is written to be extremely unpleasant in book 1 and the change in her is slow. She's an elitist, superficial bully, like the ASOIAF version of a Rom Com Cheerleader who must learn humility. She thinks 'I will make them [smallfolk] love me',

That line is actually why Sansa is a good person, she isn't saying " I will force them to like me" she's saying she will win their love.

Also Cat loved Sansa and Arya equally, if she didn't care about Arya she wouldn't keep trying to teach her differently, she doesn't want her to live some shitty life at court where she would have no place. Ned struck me as a dumbass when it came to his daughters.

[Balerion the kitten]

I agree.

With certain characters (Dany) some fans willingly ignore misdeeds, not beauuse she's a woman; but because Martin wrote her as an attractive woman.

The giveaway is when they place blame on an "ugly" slave for literally being unable to restore the dead to life.

Nope. The shallow mindedness of this statement has annoyed me. Looks really have nothing to do with it. Nada zilch.

The blame is placed on MMD because she bragged about murdering a child and drogo, and betrayed the trust of a girl who had tried and wanted to help her

[Adaneth]

Are female characters in the ASOIAF judged more harshly than the male ones ?

Yes! Throughout history it has always been the case. Even in 2015.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

tried and wanted to help her

When someone has lost everyone that matters and has been tortured, so called saving his life it doesn't mean anything. Dany is the reason MMD was like that, because she wanted her father's chair, and while she could had killed them all she only did it to Drogo, she didn't killed neither Dany nor Rhaego.

[COYStars]

The tricky one here is that it's easy to pick up on a fair degree of criticism of all of these characters.

Does this mean that they're judged more harshly than male characters? I don't think so - because from Stannis to Jon to Tyrion to whomever, there are plenty of people within this community who are highly critical.

FWIW, I have little support for those characters who are overtly ambitious, especially those who would trample over others to get to what they want. That marks Cersei's card for me. Sansa's too, to an extent, although she was young and naive when she attempted to curry favour with Cersei (and boy did she pay for it). But generally she's just a bit of an unsympathetic character, same as Cat.

Dany gets a pass from me because she's trying to do the right thing. I like her. I think a fair proportion of the criticism of her comes from the fact that her POV chapters aren't the most interesting and have clearly lost their way. Arya, Brienne, Asha I like. I have nothing against Margaery too. And I love the Queen of Thorns.