Are female characters in the ASOIAF judged more harshly than the male ones ?

[SeanF]

I gotta agree with you on this.I would be fine with them if they were politically savvy with great intuition (Like Maergery or Lady Waynwood) but they just blunder around all the time.I never feel any dramatic tension with Cersei having to use her wits to outfox someone.She simply throws a tantrum reminds people her father was Tywin Lannister then does something completely foolish.

It's just Dany Sansa and Cersei don't really do anything.Dany and Cersei simply order people to do their bidding they don't use the fact that people underestimate women to lull men into a false sense of security before unveiling a brilliantly orchestrated plot.

It's always just "Dracarys" or "Unsullied" or "Random Lannister Soldier/Gold Cloak/KG"

Most people in this series aren't politically savvy, especially the people in power. And that's true to life. If you read Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror" or Maurice Druon's Les Rois Maudits (big influences on Martin) 14th century France sounds like an asylum.

[The Fresh PtwP]

females are judged pretty harshly (Dany and Sansa especially) but not near as bad as say...Renly or Loras.

[A Bastard Snow]

LOL. Arya gets a clean chit? You don't seem to have been around this site for long. This forum loves to take digs at popular characters, and make not-so-popular characters look like saints. Troll threads don't equal hatred/criticism. What's more annoying is the fact that just because you don't agree with certain opinions regarding characters like Sansa or Catelyn.. you automatically become sexist, misogynist, It's not like you can just be criticising them for their mistakes, of course not.

That's always been what people say.If you don't think Dany should have crucified people as its an utterly abhorrent act then your either sexist or pro slavery.Instead of the obvious you know a person who thinks an extremely agonizing death that takes days is never justified.

[khal drogon]

females are judged pretty harshly (Dany and Sansa especially) but not near as bad as say...Renly or Loras.

Yes, I don't understand the Renly hate.

[SeanF]

I don't think women characters are treated far worse than males here recently (some years ago it was another story completely, search the 2000s era Sansa/Cat threads to appreciate the difference).

Perhaps there's still some misoginy in some posts, but it's far less pronounced than in older times and male characters get more than their fair share of hate recently.

Even Samwell got some kind of hate thread a few days ago, and I can't count how many posters can't mention Theon, Tyrion, Jaime or Stannis without reducing them to their crimes, even if it's not the topic (I'll always remember how some thread about Jon-Tyrion friensdhip in Agot was turned into "Tyrion is a criminal and rapist" in the space of only a dozen of posts ; or how a Stannis childhood and relation with his brothers thread was derailed into debates about the burnings making him as bad as Aerys) ; or even Robb, Ned or Jon without resuming them as stupid.

When I first joined in 2011, you'd get some crude stuff being posted about Dany's sex life, but that seems to have largely disappeared.

[Balerion the kitten]

Cersei hate is self explanatory.

People hate daenerys because she doesn't like characters they like.

People hate Sansa because they judged her when reading game of thrones, and since then haven't changed their minds.

And people hate Cateyln because Jon.

[Diregirl]

Sansa... Imo gets more than she desserve because many found her early chapters boring.

Arya... Is eventually a bit unfairly popular, when her agency was limited to fleeing / be captured / fleeing / be captured again for 3 books, and out of that is borderline psychotic. But she's one of the rare characters delivering for people liking revenge fantasies, so it's understandable.

Sansa - I don't understand the hate, but she was annoyingly naive and passive in the first couple of books, and when she decided to act decisively, her schemes were hare-brained ("I'll go and tell the Queen my father wants to send me away because I want to stay with sweet Joffrey, bohoo!". I am rereading the series and I am much less annoyed with her now since she was obviously almost catatonic with shock and PTSD.

Arya - why DO people hate her? She is such an interesting character, her whole world shrinking to almost no options but fight-flight-responses within a few chapters, her situation has taught her again and again that she can either hide (be a mouse), flee, or kill, so what would you expect her to do when she regains agency? Surely one can like characters even if their choices are somewhat less than morally sound?

It's not her fault that she ends up in a cavernous Assassination Academy with a poisonous swimmingpool and not a lot of interesting stuff going on.

[Lord Freypie]

I don't think many people hate Arya (and I certainly don't). What I wanted to say is compared to Sansa who gets strange reproach like "has no agency", when she was a prisoner most of the time, or Dany accused to be mad and cruel, I rarely see any for Arya. Then I guess it's because her role in the story is linked with long-awaited Stark revenge.

[SeanF]

I don't think many people hate Arya (and I certainly don't). What I wanted to say is compared to Sansa who gets strange reproach like "has no agency", when she was a prisoner most of the time, or Dany accused to be mad and cruel, I rarely see any for Arya. Then I guess it's because her role in the story is linked with long-awaited Stark revenge.

I think that most people feel a good deal of sympathy for Arya. Even if she were to finish up evil, she's clearly been ruined by external factors, rather than possessing a naturally bad character.

PS I said upthread that no one had Catelyn's run of bad luck, but clearly Arya has virtually. She fled a coup; witnessed her father being beheaded; fled into a killing zone; witnessed, and was threatened with murder, torture, and rape; was kidnapped by the Hound; arrives at the Twins in time for the Red Wedding, (through Nymeria) sees her mother's desecrated corpse dumped into the river; encounters the Tickler again; and is eventually inducted into a cult of assassins.

[Pikachu101]

Yes, let's put it this way; no one would expect a male character to put up with his wife's bastard

[Diregirl]

Yes, let's put it this way; no one would expect a male character to put up with his wife's bastard

Indeed.

Double standards, what a blessing. *Irony off

[John Doe]

No. I think for the most part they fail at ruling, though.

[sweetsunray]

I think it's because GRRM's choice of POVs. We have a lot of female POVs who are in ruling or leading capacity, while we see most of their male counterparts through the POVs of others (supporters, councelors, enemy or family). Those with the power to make decisions over the lives of others obviously will get more attention, but if you also read the process through their minds it becomes way easier to be irritated by them on a deeper level. Despite good intentions (with most) and hopes we also get to read their petty thoughts, prejudices, their blind spots, cynicism, hates and so on. It's very taxing to read those, even if funny. But it takes energy and has a deeper conflict impact with our own way of thinking, and the rejection of that type of mind will be more heartfelt to the reader than if you only have a similar flawed character that you can only know from outsider's eyes. And since the rejection of the POV happens on a deeper, emotional even visceral level it becomes harder to let it go, even if there's a change.

Of the female POVs we have only 3 really that are not truly influental: Sansa's, Arya's and Brienne's. Sansa's mind is written unsympathetically in the first book. It is written with the aim to gnaw your teeth at - she's stuck up, arrogant, oblivious, egocentric and unempathic while she basically has everything going for her. Arya starts out as an underdog POV who decides to let it go, who cares for common people or how people mistreat others. Their suffering is different too. Sansa's suffering is aimed at her person, while Arya's suffering the horrors done to people around her. So that's one POV of helplesness and an empathic POV that shares our anger. As readers we are angry over both treatments, but with Sansa I feel like a prisoner and it's frustrating, while Arya's pov helps me to channel my anger and empathy. It's only as Alayne that I get room to breathe when reading Sansa's POV. A comparable POV to Sansa's imo is Theon's, and it makes a similar journey. But we don't get his POV until a book later.

Catelyn's POV frustrates me from the get go really: she can be quite judgmental and has serious blind spots, and can act impetuously. And though she does question her decisions, she doesn't follow through with it. Again that is taxing and frustrating and calls forth a rejection of her. In a way I want to escape her mind. I don't have that initially with Dany. She pretty much starts as an underdog as well. But the more power she gains, the deeper the impact her decisions have, and towards the end I feel as frustrated reading her POV as much as Catelyn's. Ned's POV isn't as nearly as frustrating as theirs to me, because he attempts to observe and inform himself before making decisions or deciding to act. Even if his actions and decisions are of course the opposite of being productive, the POV itself is less demanding to me. Tyrion also starts out as an underdog, then he tries to attempt to lead and decide with thought and open-minded reasoning. It's when he's Hand-off that his POV becomes more grating.

Basically, rejection of a character becomes more pronounced when the POV becomes frustrating to read and call forth the reader's desire to escape that mind. And initially GRRM writes more female POVs that make me want to escape them than he does with male POVs, although he balances that out in later books, but the male POVs rarely have as much plot leading impact than many of the female POVs, and the men with actual power do not even have a POV.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

If Cat, Dany or Sansa had publicly humiliated the person who raised them since they were young and mocked them in their first chapter you'll never hear the end of it, even if they saved the wall and cracked a few jokes.

Stannis the Mannis does as he pleases however.

[James of the Blackwater]

If Cat, Dany or Sansa had publicly humiliated the person who raised them since they were young and mocked them in their first chapter you'll never hear the end of it, even if they saved the wall and cracked a few jokes.

Stannis the Mannis does as he pleases however.

uhh I have seen my fair share of Stannis hate on this forum

[Tolsimir]

Speaking from my point of view I don't think so. I love Catelyn and Sansa, while I absolutely can't stand Daenerys.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No. I think that most people use the "females are judged more harshly than men" excuse just because they cannot accept that not everyone like the characters or some female characters. On the other hand tho, I have seen many posters judge males more harshly than females.

[SeanF]

Arianne isn't really talked about much (except in the Dornish threads), but many think her queenmaker plot to have been stupid. And why would you consider Dany "lady like" and not Arianne? I don't like either of them, but Dany is definitely the more "badass" or less "typical fantasy world lady".

Up to TWOW (where I think she'll be very important) Arianne is not a major character. The "Trial by Folly" reread, however, is very good, and really makes her a more interesting person than I initially thought. I look forward to seeing her as a major antagonist to Dany, albeit I think it will end badly for her.

[GravyFace]

No. I think for the most part they fail at ruling, though.

So does Stannis (if what we've seen so far can be considered "ruling"). So did Robb and Jon since they were betrayed and killed by their own men. They don't get judged as harshly though.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

uhh I have seen my fair share of Stannis hate on this forum

I won't deny that but let's be honest, Cat hate is waaaaaay more common.

Also I like Stannis, It' just sad when he rarely gets called out on for what he did to Cressen when Cat gets called out on every damn time for Jon.